M20 Limerick to Cork

zulutango · 16-11-2015 6:44pm

If there were good infrastructure links between the cities then the it's very likely that Galway, Limerick and Cork would not be small regional cities with populations a long way off those of the capital.

The unfortunate reality is that our thinking when it comes to national planning has been all wrong however. You don't build infrastructure such as motorways to simply serve existing populations. You build it to direct the development of the country in the most sensible and beneficial way for everybody. We have not been doing that.

I have no doubt that Galway, Limerick and Cork would be radically different cities with much larger economies and populations than they currently have if the infrastructure has been developed with that in mind. This, of course, would be as good for Dublin as it would be for the other cities. The current situation where the small cities stagnate or don't reach their potential and the single big city overheats isn't really good for anybody.

power101 · 17-11-2015 3:14am

cgcsb wrote: »

The M20 is not going to shed hours off anything, it'll reduce the journey time from Cork to Limerick and beyond by about 30 minutes. Metro North, for example would reduce a 45+minute journey to a 20 minute journey, so a 25 minute, or more on a bad day, saving. But you are still not comparing like with like because Swords-Stephen's green area and everywhere in between will serve nearly 100,000 daily commuters. Few people travel the entire length of the N20 every single day and even if they did, there's still less than 40,000 users daily.

30 minutes saving?! The current travel time takes 1 hour 45 to 2 hours generally with longer times when you're stuck behind a tractor or any other slow moving vehicle. If its a motorway between Limerick and Cork it will take between 50-55min at 120kmph. The distance is 100km at the moment or a straight 86km. That's 50min if the motorway is 100km or 43min if straight. 50-55min covers that. That's a saving of a solid hour in traveling or roughly 50% in travel time between two major regions in Ireland.

Mc Love · 20-11-2015 5:40pm

This seems sort of like the right thread for this but does anyone know why access to the M20 from the M7/N18 is closed this weekend?

bazz26 · 20-11-2015 8:31pm

They have traffic cones up on the lane that goes under the overpass all week. Could be doing some maintenance work to the overpass?

One_More_Mile · 21-11-2015 1:35am

Limerick to clonakilty today, 3 pm set off. 6 35 set down.
That road is nothing short of a disgrace (rain & friday evening traffic permitting).
Typical dragging their arse irish attitude in buttevant- must be doing that 200 meter stretch of road for 7 or 8 months now.

marno21 · 21-11-2015 2:06am

One_More_Mile wrote: »

Limerick to clonakilty today, 3 pm set off. 6 35 set down.
That road is nothing short of a disgrace (rain & friday evening traffic permitting).
Typical dragging their arse irish attitude in buttevant- must be doing that 200 meter stretch of road for 7 or 8 months now.

I have done Limerick to Rosscarbery recently in Friday rush hour traffic in 2hr 40. Instead of using the N20 from Cork you can use the N24, R513 & M8. This will also bring you directly onto the South Ring so you can get off at the Bandon Road Roundabout and head down the N71.

bazz26 · 21-11-2015 2:31am

I just don't use the N20 anymore either - bottleneck at Charleville and Buttervant, no thanks. I go via Mitchelstown and M8 toll. I know the R513 isn't a great road either but at least you are always moving and once you hit the M8 after Mitchelstown your laughing. If you don't fancy the R513 then there is always the N24 to Cahir and then join the M8, takes a bit longer though and getting stuck in Tipp town is no fun either.

Mc Love · 21-11-2015 12:57pm

bazz26 wrote: »

I just don't use the N20 anymore either - bottleneck at Charleville and Buttervant, no thanks. I go via Mitchelstown and M8 toll. I know the R513 isn't a great road either but at least you are always moving and once you hit the M8 after Mitchelstown your laughing. If you don't fancy the R513 then there is always the N24 to Cahir and then join the M8, takes a bit longer though and getting stuck in Tipp town is no fun either.

With the amount of traffic on the R513 - its nearly a national road

jaxxx · 22-11-2015 4:55pm

Well I dunno about you guys and gals.... but I certainly have NOT heard any arguments here whatsoever that warrants at least a duel carriageway to Cork for the west/mid of the country.....

*WARNING - sarcasm detected*

phog · 22-11-2015 5:26pm

Driving home from Cork yesterday, thinking that it was off peak I decided to try Buttevant again, it was a huge mistake. I passed Newtwopothouse ar 17:07. I was still queuing at the traffic lights in Buttevant 30 mins later. It took 40 mins in total to drive between my usual entry & exit diversion points on the N20. The diversion usually takes no more than 18mins

jaxxx · 22-11-2015 6:32pm

phog wrote: »

Driving home from Cork yesterday, thinking that it was off peak I decided to try Buttevant again, it was a huge mistake. I passed Newtwopothouse ar 17:07. I was still queuing at the traffic lights in Buttevant 30 mins later. It took 40 mins in total to drive between my usual entry & exit diversion points on the N20. The diversion usually takes no more than 18mins

Main road for the entire west of Ireland to get down to Cork people. And people wonder why Limerick/Galway/et.al are so under developed.

"Welcome, to the Republic of Dublin" - really should have that at all airports so as not to be lying to tourists.

cgcsb · 22-11-2015 7:26pm

jaxxx wrote: »

Main road for the entire west of Ireland to get down to Cork people. And people wonder why Limerick/Galway/et.al are so under developed.

"Welcome, to the Republic of Dublin" - really should have that at all airports so as not to be lying to tourists.

Or perhaps just this image to reflect your attitude.

Mc Love · 23-11-2015 12:23am

Why is there a crisp on your shoulder

jaxxx · 23-11-2015 12:40am

cgcsb wrote: »

Or perhaps just this image to reflect your attitude.

And what attitude have I expressed, please do tell?

yop · 23-11-2015 9:21am

**MOD NOTE: Keep it on thread lads thanks **

Comhrá · 23-11-2015 10:40am

Why is there a crisp on your shoulder

It's.....ahem....a chip, I believe.

cgcsb · 23-11-2015 12:42pm

jaxxx wrote: »

And what attitude have I expressed, please do tell?

A chip on your shoulder of course.

zulutango · 24-11-2015 12:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A chip on your shoulder of course.

I honestly don't think it's fair to say that those who decry the all-roads-lead-to-Dublin policy of successive governments have a chip on their shoulder. I think the policy is there but it's a result of ignorance and ineptitude as much as malice. If we want the country to prosper, including Dublin, and if we want it to move beyond seeing itself as a rain-sodden rock on the periphery of Europe with perennial stagnant growth (in the longer term) then we need sensible, balanced economic and spatial planning and the motorway between Cork and Limerick would be very important in that regard.

cgcsb · 24-11-2015 1:35pm

But of course infrastructural spending has been anything but Dublin-Centric, quite the opposite in fact. A poster referenced Tourists arriving in Shannon to see signs welcoming them to 'The Republic of Dublin' That's a scream because tourists arriving in Dublin Airport will encounter Europe's only major airport with no rail access. The notion that Dublin receives a greater share of infrastructural spend than is fair and proportional is utter nonsense and this needs to be dispelled with facts, see the recent capital spending program. Dublin will receive almost no investment in transport in the next 6 years.

I'm supportive of the M20, but blaming it not being built on Dublin-Centric policy is nonsense, there is no such policy, the opposite to that policy is being implemented. The village of New Ross is being bypassed with a motorway at a cost of hundreds of millions. The question is why is so much money being invested in motorways in Wexford and only a fraction of that money will go to tackling growing congestion in the capital, and Cork and Limerick are left with an inadequate road connection for the foreseeable future.

zulutango · 24-11-2015 2:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

But of course infrastructural spending has been anything but Dublin-Centric, quite the opposite in fact. A poster referenced Tourists arriving in Shannon to see signs welcoming them to 'The Republic of Dublin' That's a scream because tourists arriving in Dublin Airport will encounter Europe's only major airport with no rail access. The notion that Dublin receives a greater share of infrastructural spend than is fair and proportional is utter nonsense and this needs to be dispelled with facts, see the recent capital spending program. Dublin will receive almost no investment in transport in the next 6 years.

I'm supportive of the M20, but blaming it not being built on Dublin-Centric policy is nonsense, there is no such policy, the opposite to that policy is being implemented. The village of New Ross is being bypassed with a motorway at a cost of hundreds of millions. The question is why is so much money being invested in motorways in Wexford and only a fraction of that money will go to tackling growing congestion in the capital, and Cork and Limerick are left with an inadequate road connection for the foreseeable future.

You're right, it's wrong to call it a policy seeing as it's probably mostly an unconscious thing on the part of decision makers who just don't have much of a vision for what the country could be. And there's as many vested interests in Cork, Limerick and Galway who wish to retain the status quo too.

But I think we're getting our wires crossed when we say 'Dublin centric'. I would say that just because infrastructure is planned for outside the Pale doesn't necessarily mean that it's not Dublin-centric, i.e. building a motorway from the west to Dublin is Dublin centric, but the motorway isn't in Dublin. To my mind, Dublin-centric means making decisions that see Dublin as Ireland's only big city and everywhere else as a regional backwater that serve Dublin. Policy decisions could be taken that would lead to a radical demographic shift in this country, such that the economic development is't so lopsided, and one that would benefit people in Dublin as much as anywhere else.

I do take your point that many people do see the whole thing in a very parochial way though, i.e. the poster that you referenced.

Mr.H · 25-11-2015 5:10am

Wanted to get a bus from the city center to Childers road on Sunday. Bus I was aiming for was the 12.15 from the city. 12.45 the bus finally arrived and I was almost late because of it.

But yea getting a rail link from Dublin airport to the city is way more important than sorting out these basic of tasks.

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country. We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now (apart from a connection to the airport which is in the works) but the rest of the country doesnt even have a regular bus service.

Its like we have one top European city and a couple of large towns. Im actually surprised they didnt push harder for the European capital of culture in Dublin to be honest.

An M20 would be of huge benefit and save up to an hour and a half to 2 hours presently between limerick and cork (taking Buttevant into consideration which has been an issue for about 3 years now)

zulutango · 25-11-2015 11:58am

Mr.H wrote: »

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country. We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now (apart from a connection to the airport which is in the works) but the rest of the country doesnt even have a regular bus service.

That's not really true, to be fair. By European standards Dublin's public transport system is utter ****e. There's plenty of reasons for that.

I really don't think we should be arguing against Dublin getting the funding that it needs. The fact of the matter is that the various projects in Dublin are necessary (at least some of them) and the M20 is also necessary.

There's varying opinions on just how beneficial any of these projects might be, but I'd argue that the M20 is of very strategic national importance, and while Dubliners will never really get that because it's not in their back yard, it could be as good for them as it is for any of us in Limerick and Cork.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 12:25pm

Mr.H wrote: »

Wanted to get a bus from the city center to Childers road on Sunday. Bus I was aiming for was the 12.15 from the city. 12.45 the bus finally arrived and I was almost late because of it.

Try waiting for the number 4 (a high demand Dublin Bus route) In Phibsboro for an hour because there is a match on, these things happen in Dublin also.

Mr.H wrote: »

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country.

But as we've established it's not, Dublin got hardly anything in terms of transport in the recent capital expenditure plan, it certainly didn't receive 40% of the funds, to match the GDA's 40% of the State's population.

We got an €8m re-opening of 140 year old rail tunnel and a DART extension to Balbriggan (circa €10m) That's it.

Mr.H wrote: »

We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now

I'm sorry but that is very far from the truth. Dublin's public transport scores worse than any other City of it's size in Europe in terms of connectivity, capacity, frequency and reliability.

Mr.H wrote: »

Its like we have one top European city and a couple of large towns.

It sounds like you're describing the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria and various other similarly sized west European states.

Mr.H wrote: »

An M20 would be of huge benefit and save up to an hour and a half to 2 hours presently between limerick and cork (taking Buttevant into consideration which has been an issue for about 3 years now)

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

phog · 25-11-2015 12:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

Edit - only saw the piece about trains later.

That might be achievable in the early hours of the morning with no traffic and no road works in Buttevant or the far side of Mallow.

Regardless of money being spent on other road or transport projects it's crazy that the N20 hasn't been upgraded to a motorway. This a a road between the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in Ireland. It would also link the west of Ireland to the south.

zulutango · 25-11-2015 1:06pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

You might want to check out the frequency of those trains.

Also, trains are great for getting from one point to another (at specific times) but not so great at serving wider dispersed populations. Rail is a long, long way from being an alternative to a road link between the two cities.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 1:20pm

zulutango wrote: »

You might want to check out the frequency of those trains.

There's a train every hour, making it the third most frequent intercity rail route on the island of Ireland after Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Cork respectively.

zulutango wrote: »

Also, trains are great for getting from one point to another (at specific times) but not so great at serving wider dispersed populations. Rail is a long, long way from being an alternative to a road link between the two cities.

The thrust of transport policy is towards more public transport and less cars and both Cork and Limerick now have the leap card making onward connections very easy. So improving journey times between Cork and Limerick by train plus smaller road improvements for the N20 along the more dangerous sections could well be an alternative.

If you could have a 1 hour 20 minute train between Cork and Limerick every hour and have your leap handy for connections at either end you'd probably reduce traffic on the N20 considerably for a very small investment, after all the bones of such a service already exist. A few single carriageway bypasses on the N20 would keep the trucks moving too.

By the way I'm not arguing against building the M20, I am convinced it's very much needed I'm just saying that other measures can improve the situation in the short term and indeed the train service should receive investment regardless of what happens to the M20.

Cookiemunster · 25-11-2015 2:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There's a train every hour, making it the third most frequent intercity rail route on the island of Ireland after Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Cork respectively.

The thrust of transport policy is towards more public transport and less cars and both Cork and Limerick now have the leap card making onward connections very easy. So improving journey times between Cork and Limerick by train plus smaller road improvements for the N20 along the more dangerous sections could well be an alternative.

If you could have a 1 hour 20 minute train between Cork and Limerick every hour and have your leap handy for connections at either end you'd probably reduce traffic on the N20 considerably for a very small investment, after all the bones of such a service already exist. A few single carriageway bypasses on the N20 would keep the trucks moving too.

By the way I'm not arguing against building the M20, I am convinced it's very much needed I'm just saying that other measures can improve the situation in the short term and indeed the train service should receive investment regardless of what happens to the M20.

I've said this to you before, but 1hr 20 min by train between two cities 100Km apart is a disgrace. It only takes 2 hours to travel between Limerick and Dublin. In fact there isn't even a proper rail line between Limerick and Cork. There's a spur off the Dublin Cork line at Limerick Junction that brings you into Limerick. There are no stops on the Cork Dublin line in limerick. It's useless to anyone who isn't from the city.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 3:35pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I've said this to you before, but 1hr 20 min by train between two cities 100Km apart is a disgrace. It only takes 2 hours to travel between Limerick and Dublin.

It's an improvement is it not?
The Cork-Limerick Junction track will be renovated over the coming months to accommodate higher speeds between Dublin and Cork which of course has the same benefits for Cork-Limerick.

Cookiemunster · 25-11-2015 3:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's an improvement is it not?
The Cork-Limerick Junction track will be renovated over the coming months to accommodate higher speeds between Dublin and Cork which of course has the same benefits for Cork-Limerick.

An improvement? There is no direct train between Cork and Limerick. You have to change at Limerick Junction. What good is a faster line between between Cork and Dublin when you're still sitting at Limerick Junction for between 15 and 25 minutes?

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 3:57pm

Nothing wrong with changing train, a direct services could be introduced taking just over an hour the required track is in place, I would suggest Irish Rail trial such a service, it could be a real bread winner if reports of how bad the N20 are, are accurate.

If Irish Rail have learned anything about their business over the last few years it's that routes where they offer journey times faster than road i.e. Dublin-Cork,Tralee,Westport,Limerick and sometimes Galway are hugely popular and profitable where as routes that remain slow are deeply unpopular and loss making i.e. Dublin-Rosslare, Belfast, Sligo and Limerick-Galway.

Alas that's nothing to do with the M20

zulutango · 25-11-2015 4:06pm

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 4:52pm

zulutango wrote: »

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

I agree, but we're not getting the M20 for 2 decades at the least. I think it's legitimate to discuss alternative improvements given this timeframe.

Jofspring · 25-11-2015 6:00pm

Comparing car and train is a waste of time. A train will only get you to a certain point in the destination town/city where as a car will bring precisely where you want to go. The train is also expensive and if you are leaving a city late at night you haven't a hope.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 6:07pm

It's not a question of either or though, it's how road and rail best complement each other. We're trying to move away from car dependence and C02 emissions as a society. Trains are a means to help accomplish this.

Trains in Ireland are not expensive either, you can cross the entire country for about €15 most of the time, try a quick trip to the UK, £150 for a London-Manchester ticket on a conventional speed service is the norm. Regarding point to point transport, you simply use your leap and change onto a City bus or take out a City bike when you get to the other side.

Obviously there are limits to what public transport can do at the minute, people who need to travel at 2am aren't accommodated for example, but the majority of journeys can be accommodated.

zulutango · 25-11-2015 6:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously there are limits to what public transport can do at the minute, people who need to travel at 2am aren't accommodated for example, but the majority of journeys can be accommodated.

I admire your positivity but this just isn't true.

Vanquished · 25-11-2015 11:45pm

zulutango wrote: »

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

That's a bit of a stretch now! The M20 is of course a critical and strategic piece of infrastructure but it needs to be accompanied by an effective and robust planning policy if your assertion is to have any chance of even becoming a possibility!

The reality is that we do not possess a mature attitude towards sustainable living in this country. We still permit and endorse the construction of one-off houses all over the countryside, often in highly inappropriate locations. This is a major contributing factor to the under-development of our towns and cities. Over 70% of rural housing is one-off housing and the trend is continuing as this year half of new houses built throughout the country are one-offs.

I fear that the eventual development of the M20 will just encourage more unsustainable housing along that corridor to the detriment of the towns we should be supporting! It's also misguided to blame some form of Dublin orchestrated conspiracy for our ills and shortcomings. Especially when local government down here doesn't exactly have a stellar record in positioning Limerick or Cork to develop and reach their potential!

The M20 should be built as a matter of urgency but it can't be used as an excuse to facilitate more inappropriate development at the expense of our towns and cities!

zulutango · 25-11-2015 11:52pm

I fundamentally agree with everything you said except the very first part

For what it's worth, I do think the motorway could cause a radical economic shift in the country. But, of course, there are other things that have to happen too.

Vanquished · 26-11-2015 12:06am

It has the potential to be a game changer but it would need to be accompanied by major reforms and a radical attitude shift.

Does the political intelligence, desire and courage exist to help bring this about?

zulutango · 26-11-2015 10:51am

Vanquished wrote: »

It has the potential to be a game changer but it would need to be accompanied by major reforms and a radical attitude shift.

Does the political intelligence, desire and courage exist to help bring this about?

I'd like to think we're getting there, but there's no doubt that we've a long way to go.

Mr.H · 26-11-2015 12:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Try waiting for the number 4 (a high demand Dublin Bus route) In Phibsboro for an hour because there is a match on, these things happen in Dublin also.

I am not talking about the rest of the country having bad public transport during a match. I am talking about EVERY day.

Every City has traffic issues when a match is on. Doesnt matter if its Tipp town or London you will have traffic with a match.

In "non dublin cities" we often have long waits for buses when they even bother to show up. Sometimes I think the digital bus stop is just mocking me. I am talking about major routes as well by the way. Limerick: City-Uni is suppose to be every 15 but sometimes can stretch to 45. Waterford: city-cork rd is suppose to be every 20 but can often be an hour.................... This is on normal days not match days

cgcsb wrote: »

But as we've established it's not, Dublin got hardly anything in terms of transport in the recent capital expenditure plan, it certainly didn't receive 40% of the funds, to match the GDA's 40% of the State's population.

We got an €8m re-opening of 140 year old rail tunnel and a DART extension to Balbriggan (circa €10m) That's it.

Compared to what the rest of the country got??

Im sorry if I sound naive but I didnt see anything on that list nationally that will have any real change.

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is very far from the truth. Dublin's public transport scores worse than any other City of it's size in Europe in terms of connectivity, capacity, frequency and reliability.

You sound like you have never been to Waterford my friend. You would be lucky to get a bus anywhere.

Try visiting it sometime it is a site to behold (not trying to sound disparaging)

cgcsb wrote: »

It sounds like you're describing the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria and various other similarly sized west European states.

First of all Neterlands has Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague, Utrecht and Edinhoven which are all BIG cities. In terms of land we are bigger but population they outnumber us by at least 3 to 1.

Austria have twice our pop but marginally bigger land. Vienna, Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Klagenfurt.

Denmark is closer to our pop size but has half our land size. Copenhagen, Aarhus, Odense, Aalborg and Frederiksberg (technically considered part of Copenhagen but it is the Kildare of Denmark).

Im not trying to prove anything really by listing these cities other than these are all larger cities than Cork Galway Waterford and Limerick. Also that these countries encourage their pop to spread out. Only about 1/4 of their total pop lives in the capital where Ireland we try to encourage everyone to move to Dublin.

If you think our capitals transport is really poor compared to other capitals you should compare our national (outside the capital) transports compared to other non capital cities..................... SHOCKING

I really dont want this to be Dublin vs the rest of the country. All I am saying is with the limited budget that is there we need to upgrade the rest of the country and people in Dublin (incl. Politicians) dont seem to have a clue how bad the rest of the country is.

It is not in anyway good policy for EVERY transport change in the country to impact Dublin. I.e; if we upgrade the track from Dublin to Cork it will help Limerick also.......................... why not upgrade the track from Limerick to the Junction or better still upgrade the WRC to allow faster travel to encourage more users. Or how about upgrading tracks from Waterford to Limerick Junc? How about lay some tracks for direct trains from Limerick to cork??

Point is it always comes back to "how can we improve peoples experience in travelling to/from Dublin", and its wrong.

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

Have you ever driven that road?

You would be lucky to make it within 3 hours to be honest and thats at non peak times.

They started road works in a village called Buttevent about 3 or so years ago (at least thats when i first noticed it) and it has been an ongoing nightmare ever since.

cgcsb · 26-11-2015 1:23pm

Mr.H wrote: »

I am not talking about the rest of the country having bad public transport during a match. I am talking about EVERY day.

And every day there are serious delays on DART and commuter Rail services owing to signal faults on a 40 year old signal system. Everyday Dublin Bus experiences extensive delays due to pinch points, it's a problem that affects us too. Your notion of Dublin having a 'world class transport system' while the rest of the state has diddly squat is simply untrue.

Mr.H wrote: »

Compared to what the rest of the country got??

Yes compared to the rest of country, why upgrade a lightly trafficked road in Wexford to a full motorway standard including an expensive new bridge when much busier transport corridors are operating above safe capacity e.g. The N20 or Maynooth Cummuter services.

Mr.H wrote: »

Im sorry if I sound naive but I didnt see anything on that list nationally that will have any real change.

exactly the money is being spent on non critical projects just for the sake of geographic spread. It's an election strategy.

Mr.H wrote: »

You sound like you have never been to Waterford my friend. You would be lucky to get a bus anywhere.

Waterford is not comparable to Dublin though which was the point I was making. Dublin has the worst public transport system of any SIMILAR SIZED European City. Waterford is large port town.

Mr.H wrote: »

Austria have twice our pop but marginally bigger land. Vienna, Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Klagenfurt.

Denmark is closer to our pop size but has half our land size. Copenhagen, Aarhus, Odense, Aalborg and Frederiksberg (technically considered part of Copenhagen but it is the Kildare of Denmark).

And Ireland has Cork, Limerick and Galway. My point being that these are small states with just one large City and some smaller urban areas, Graz for example is Cork sized. There's nothing wrong with that. Having one large City gives Ireland a market of scale that wouldn't otherwise exist.

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

Mr.H wrote: »

I really dont want this to be Dublin vs the rest of the country.

Well then stop coming out with silly, blatantly untrue, statements about Dublin getting all the investment. Dublin receives well below it's fair share of investment relative to tax take, GDP produced and spend per head of population.

Mr.H wrote: »

It is not in anyway good policy for EVERY transport change in the country to impact Dublin. I.e; if we upgrade the track from Dublin to Cork it will help Limerick also.......................... why not upgrade the track from Limerick to the Junction

because it would be of benefit to less people and would have a smaller return on investment.

Mr.H wrote: »

Or how about upgrading tracks from Waterford to Limerick Junc?

Lack of demand

Mr.H wrote: »

How about lay some tracks for direct trains from Limerick to cork??

The tracks are already in place in fact IÉ used to run direct Cork-Limerick trains but stopped, not sure why. Trains coming from the Cork direction can turn left onto the limerick branch.

Mr.H wrote: »

Have you ever driven that road?

You would be lucky to make it within 3 hours to be honest and thats at non peak times.

They started road works in a village called Buttevent about 3 or so years ago (at least thats when i first noticed it) and it has been an ongoing nightmare ever since.

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

davo2001 · 26-11-2015 1:35pm

Question for cgcsb..

Have you actually ever driven the road in question or has it ever affected you?

cgcsb · 26-11-2015 1:45pm

davo2001 · 26-11-2015 1:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

no

Yeah, I thought as much based on your comments, thanks for clarifying.

zulutango · 26-11-2015 1:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

It's bad national planning, to be fair.

Mr.H · 26-11-2015 2:06pm

cgcsb wrote: »

And every day there are serious delays on DART and commuter Rail services owing to signal faults on a 40 year old signal system. Everyday Dublin Bus experiences extensive delays due to pinch points, it's a problem that affects us too. Your notion of Dublin having a 'world class transport system' while the rest of the state has diddly squat is simply untrue.

extensive delays are minor in Dublin. I have spent time in Dublin among Limerick and Waterford, unlike you who has by the sounds of it spent very little time outside the Capital

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes compared to the rest of country, why upgrade a lightly trafficked road in Wexford to a full motorway standard including an expensive new bridge when much busier transport corridors are operating above safe capacity e.g. The N20 or Maynooth Cummuter services.

Let me ask you. Where is the motorway in Wexford going to lead to??

DUBLIN

I agree that it is not important but I think it is about linking the port in Rosslare more than Wexford itself and if I am not mistaken its an EU thing rather than Irish.

cgcsb wrote: »

exactly the money is being spent on non critical projects just for the sake of geographic spread. It's an election strategy.

Yes I agree. Facilitating Dublin gets more votes than the rest of the country

cgcsb wrote: »

Waterford is not comparable to Dublin though which was the point I was making. Dublin has the worst public transport system of any SIMILAR SIZED European City. Waterford is large port town.

Waterford is a city as is Kilkenny

Been to a lot of Cities throughout Europe and Australia and I have to say The transport in Dublin is not as bad as you are making out. It could very well be upgraded but it is already very comparable with the likes of Amsterdam and Brussels. Let alone Sydney and Brisbane.

cgcsb wrote: »

And Ireland has Cork, Limerick and Galway. My point being that these are small states with just one large City and some smaller urban areas, Graz for example is Cork sized. There's nothing wrong with that. Having one large City gives Ireland a market of scale that wouldn't otherwise exist.

The reason why Cork, Galway and Limerick are small is because of bad planning within your own councils, more people live in rural Galway than Galway City. This is cultural and ultimately it's because we are a backward rural people. More than 40% of our population live in rural areas compared to 90%+ Urban in most western European States, Only the likes of Portugal has a similar rural/urban divide.

The reason why Cork Limerick and Galway are small is due to limited control over their own planning.

I am not talking about small urban areas I am saying that comparable sized countries have wider population spread and dont just focus on the capital.

Spain, America, England, Scotland, Germany, Italy, France and Australia to name very few countries who have a policy of building up non capital cities.

Comparing our size you have the likes of Belgium, Holland and Iceland who have built their very reputations on expanding non capital cities.

cgcsb wrote: »

Well then stop coming out with silly, blatantly untrue, statements about Dublin getting all the investment. Dublin receives well below it's fair share of investment relative to tax take, GDP produced and spend per head of population.

Untrue

Again look at the needless motorway in Wexford for example. It benefits Dublin. Look at the track improvements on the Dublin to Cork route............... again benefits Dublin.

cgcsb wrote: »

because it would be of benefit to less people and would have a smaller return on investment.

Lack of demand

Supply and demand swings both ways

Without supply the demand will not be there. People will always go to where the resources lie.

For example open a factory with 1000 jobs in Mayo and you will get a lot of people moving to Mayo. They wont not go just because its Mayo.

cgcsb wrote: »

The tracks are already in place in fact IÉ used to run direct Cork-Limerick trains but stopped, not sure why. Trains coming from the Cork direction can turn left onto the limerick branch.

The tracks are old and dangerous. They needed to be replaced but decided to upgrade the tracks to Dublin instead.

cgcsb wrote: »

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

They are both wrong

Insect Overlord · 26-11-2015 2:17pm

cgcsb wrote: »

AA and google give it about 90 mins.

Best case scenario, in good weather, driving early in the morning or late at night when there's no other traffic on the road, not getting held up at the roadworks in Buttevant, not getting stuck behind a campervan/tractor/haulage vehicle or some eejit doing 60 km/h in the 80/100 zones, and hitting every green light on the way into the city centre.

Mr.H · 26-11-2015 2:24pm

An File wrote: »

Best case scenario, in good weather, driving early in the morning or late at night when there's no other traffic on the road, not getting held up at the roadworks in Buttevant, not getting stuck behind a campervan/tractor/haulage vehicle or some eejit doing 60 km/h in the 80/100 zones, and hitting every green light on the way into the city centre.

We cant accuse Google of not being optimistic

cgcsb · 26-11-2015 2:45pm

davo2001 wrote: »

Yeah, I thought as much based on your comments, thanks for clarifying.

I am in support of building the M20 as planned, so you probably thought wrong.

Mr.H · 26-11-2015 2:54pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I am in support of building the M20 as planned, so you probably thought wrong.

The politician stance..................... "I am in favour of this of course"*

*but its very low on the list of priorities

For what its worth I would sell the naming rights of the road to major corporations in return for funding the road. For example call it the Sony M20?

Same could be done for works nationwide including Dublin

M20 Limerick to Cork

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