Random Running Questions

hot buttered scones · 22-04-2016 4:15pm

Enduro wrote: »

My opinion is that you shouldn't need to. Glycogen depletion is generally thought to become a factor after two hours or so of carb burning, so if you're going to be finishing under that time it shouldn't be an actual physical issue, I would have thought.

Of course phychological effects are another thing entirely. It's more than possible that your friends are getting a phycological benifit from using the gels even if it isn't making any physical difference in reality. But that can be turned on its head too, in that having a phycoligical dependancy thinking that you need gels to get your maximum performance is introducing an unneccesary vulnerability. What if you forget the gels? What if you loose your gels mid-race? What if something turns up which mean you don't get to carb-load as planned? All irrelevant if you know you don't need any of that in the first place.

It's definitely a a psychological crutch for me - so much so I feel as if I almost have to wean myself off them, if that makes sense. I used to use them more often, even in training, but not so much any more. I've even brought them to races "just in case". At some stage this year I'm just going to enter a half marathon and try it without gels i.e. a race for which I'd have set no real goal just to see how I perform without them

El Caballo · 22-04-2016 4:19pm

Enduro wrote: »

My opinion is that you shouldn't need to. Glycogen depletion is generally thought to become a factor after two hours or so of carb burning, so if you're going to be finishing under that time it shouldn't be an actual physical issue, I would have thought.

Of course phychological effects are another thing entirely. It's more than possible that your friends are getting a phycological benifit from using the gels even if it isn't making any physical difference in reality. But that can be turned on its head too, in that having a phycoligical dependancy thinking that you need gels to get your maximum performance is introducing an unneccesary vulnerability. What if you forget the gels? What if you loose your gels mid-race? What if something turns up which mean you don't get to carb-load as planned? All irrelevant if you know you don't need any of that in the first place.

Yeah, I'd agree with Enduro. I don't really think there's a need for gels during a half unless you're close to or we'll over two hours, I've never booked during a half anyway and I have a tendency to go out way too hard most of the time but it's still never been an issue with energy levels. As long as you've eaten well during the week, energy shouldn't really be a concern especially if tapered.

On the carb-loading on the run up to races, I think it's a bit gimmicky as you can only store so much glycogen in your muscles so stuffing your face the night before a race won't make much difference if you've eaten sufficiently all week.

Enduro · 22-04-2016 4:46pm

hot buttered scones wrote: »

It's definitely a a psychological crutch for me - so much so I feel as if I almost have to wean myself off them, if that makes sense.

That makes perfect sense. I've seen it argued on (non-sports) nutrition sites that sugar-addiction is just as powerful in its phscholgical effects as narcotic drug addictons (and explains why so many diet efforts fail). Those sites advocate recognising it as an addiction and going cold turkey. No "everything in moderation".

From a sports POV, you've probably trained yourself into needing them by incorporating them into your training. So getting them out of your training routine will the same effort for the reverse effect. Again, just requires determination and time. Knowing that you have no performance related reason for needing them should make it a lot easier to get though the effort of breaking a trained-in habit.

BeepBeep67 · 22-04-2016 6:14pm

I've the latest craze of Premiership footballers necking a gel when coming on in the 75th minute, might be more product placement as much as anything, but really?

Coffee Fulled Runner · 22-04-2016 6:16pm

What's my fellow Boardies opinion on taking protein shakes after work outs? Personally I don't bother but a couple in my club do take protein after hard sessions. Should runners take extra protein?

Krusty_Clown · 22-04-2016 6:31pm

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

What's my fellow Boardies opinion on taking protein shakes after work outs? Personally I don't bother but a couple in my club do take protein after hard sessions. Should runners take extra protein?

I eat food.

Dubgal72 · 22-04-2016 6:42pm

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

What's my fellow Boardies opinion on taking protein shakes after work outs? Personally I don't bother but a couple in my club do take protein after hard sessions. Should runners take extra protein?

Agree with Krusty, eat real food over powdered crap any day. I don't stress about eating immediately after an easy run but will try to get some nuts and dried fruit into me within half an hour of a long run or hard session. Then, depending on tummy, scrambled eggs or an omelet always go down well an hour or so after the run or session.

ger664 · 22-04-2016 6:43pm

If you need the convenience of a protien drink after the workout banana and milk in to you protein shaker

Coffee Fulled Runner · 22-04-2016 7:04pm

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Agree with Krusty, eat real food over powdered crap any day. I don't stress about eating immediately after an easy run but will try to get some nuts and dried fruit into me within half an hour of a long run or hard session. Then, depending on tummy, scrambled eggs or an omelet always go down well an hour or so after the run or session.

I do the same and get all my protein through food but I love cooking :-) I see there is a big market for protein bars and shakes now. After a few races I did this year a local company were handing out protein drinks too.

BeepBeep67 · 22-04-2016 7:44pm

You can even get milk with added protein now, who'd've thunk!

ford2600 · 22-04-2016 8:29pm

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I do the same and get all my protein through food but I love cooking :-) I see there is a big market for protein bars and shakes now. After a few races I did this year a local company were handing out protein drinks too.

Protein requirements increase with activity level.

Depending who you listen to it'll vary but probably no need to over complicate it: just have a good protein source with each meal eggs, meat, fish etc.

Your body just needs a pool of nitrogen and it can figure out the rest; whether that's supplied it two or six meals a day it won't matter an iota.

The repeated mantra about a 30 min window is from a study of elite athletes training twice a day.

That being said if the demands for time in the real world mean a protein drink made for whey and a few pieces of fruit or whatever don't worry about it either.

All the protein in the world won't be worth a sh1te if you don't sleep well and allow the repair work to get done

Battery Kinzie · 24-04-2016 12:54pm

Long post so if you want to skip, the second last paragraph is where I actually put forward a question!

I had a slight tear (I think) in my calf at the start of February which came from running too fast essentially. I got that sorted with a massage and I was back running 2/3 days later (had previously taken 8 days off before massage).

Since then I've been a lot more conservative about my training paces - I bought a HR monitor and am keeping the pacing very calm and steady for all my runs, and the pain has never came back during or after one of these easy runs. However, twice now I've tried to add some speedwork in, and both times the same spot in the calf has been a bit sore the day or two after.

The first time was about a month after the massage and to be fair, I went too fast and I realise that now. I did a 4k tempo run at quite a decent pace. A pace that I now realise was too fast, but a pace I was doing before the injury without many problems. The next day the same spot was sore, but after some icing and a day or two rest, I was able to go back to the easy runs within 3 days. I've since been doing exclusively slow runs and have been fine for the most part.

However, last Tuesday I attempted another tempo run, this time a good bit slower, and it went well. No pain on Wednesday or Thursday. I then went out for another easy run on Thursday, finishing off with 4 strides. I don't recall any pain or discomfort on Friday, but when I went out on Saturday for a short easy run, my leg felt weak, and the calf pain was back. It wasn't anything overly sore or painful, and not nearly as bad as it was back in February. I tested it again this morning and did 13k without much pain during the run, but I have a slight bit of pain now.

So essentially, I clearly have a weakness in that spot of my calf which gets aggravated through speedwork. Is this something that should pass eventually with some calf strengthening exercises and continuing to run easy runs, or should I get it checked out. While typing all this out, I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but the fact that it only gets aggravated by speedwork is making me think that it may be something that I can manage myself.

Anyway, long post, and I appreciate any advice. Cheers.

HelenAnne · 24-04-2016 8:35pm

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Long post so if you want to skip, the second last paragraph is where I actually put forward a question!

I had a slight tear (I think) in my calf at the start of February which came from running too fast essentially. I got that sorted with a massage and I was back running 2/3 days later (had previously taken 8 days off before massage).

Since then I've been a lot more conservative about my training paces - I bought a HR monitor and am keeping the pacing very calm and steady for all my runs, and the pain has never came back during or after one of these easy runs. However, twice now I've tried to add some speedwork in, and both times the same spot in the calf has been a bit sore the day or two after.

The first time was about a month after the massage and to be fair, I went too fast and I realise that now. I did a 4k tempo run at quite a decent pace. A pace that I now realise was too fast, but a pace I was doing before the injury without many problems. The next day the same spot was sore, but after some icing and a day or two rest, I was able to go back to the easy runs within 3 days. I've since been doing exclusively slow runs and have been fine for the most part.

However, last Tuesday I attempted another tempo run, this time a good bit slower, and it went well. No pain on Wednesday or Thursday. I then went out for another easy run on Thursday, finishing off with 4 strides. I don't recall any pain or discomfort on Friday, but when I went out on Saturday for a short easy run, my leg felt weak, and the calf pain was back. It wasn't anything overly sore or painful, and not nearly as bad as it was back in February. I tested it again this morning and did 13k without much pain during the run, but I have a slight bit of pain now.

So essentially, I clearly have a weakness in that spot of my calf which gets aggravated through speedwork. Is this something that should pass eventually with some calf strengthening exercises and continuing to run easy runs, or should I get it checked out. While typing all this out, I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but the fact that it only gets aggravated by speedwork is making me think that it may be something that I can manage myself.

Anyway, long post, and I appreciate any advice. Cheers.

This mightn't be relevant to you, maybe yours is just a niggle, but I had a calf tear (minor as well) at the end of 2014. Long story short, after re-aggravating it a few times, the physio said to wait until it was completely pain free walking / hopping etc, then wait another week, then go back to running. A friend from the club who was doing some calf massage for me at the time gave me a comeback programme, which was walk to some grass, run five minutes, walk home. Take a day off, then do day one again, adding two minutes. Stop if there's any pain. Do that till I got to 20 mins and then gradually increase running till I was back to my previous volume. I know that sounds over-conservative, but it worked for me and I have had no calf problems since. (The club mate who gave me that advice has run sub 14 for 5k, so i thought 'If that's good enough for him ...

'. good luck! I think calves can be tricky!

Kennyg71 · 24-04-2016 9:19pm

Tore my calf last year, do calf raises reguarly still every week, and haven't
had any trouble since, when it happened initially physio recommended
putting hot water bottle on calf before speed work to warm muscle, think
something like deep heat or tiger balm will work also, he also advised full
warm up and cool downs, something didn't always give enough time to.
if you can do 25/30 X 3 sets single calf raises and not have pain should be
good to go, calf will tire but shouldn't pain. Also foam rolling good for knots
best of luck.

HelenAnne · 24-04-2016 9:47pm

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Tore my calf last year, do calf raises reguarly still every week, and haven't
had any trouble since, when it happened initially physio recommended
putting hot water bottle on calf before speed work to warm muscle, think
something like deep heat or tiger balm will work also, he also advised full
warm up and cool downs, something didn't always give enough time to.
if you can do 25/30 X 3 sets single calf raises and not have pain should be
good to go, calf will tire but shouldn't pain. Also foam rolling good for knots
best of luck.

Yes, forgot to recommend calf raises! They really do work!

Battery Kinzie · 24-04-2016 10:21pm

HelenAnne wrote: »

This mightn't be relevant to you, maybe yours is just a niggle, but I had a calf tear (minor as well) at the end of 2014. Long story short, after re-aggravating it a few times, the physio said to wait until it was completely pain free walking / hopping etc, then wait another week, then go back to running. A friend from the club who was doing some calf massage for me at the time gave me a comeback programme, which was walk to some grass, run five minutes, walk home. Take a day off, then do day one again, adding two minutes. Stop if there's any pain. Do that till I got to 20 mins and then gradually increase running till I was back to my previous volume. I know that sounds over-conservative, but it worked for me and I have had no calf problems since. (The club mate who gave me that advice has run sub 14 for 5k, so i thought 'If that's good enough for him ... '. good luck! I think calves can be tricky!

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Tore my calf last year, do calf raises reguarly still every week, and haven't
had any trouble since, when it happened initially physio recommended
putting hot water bottle on calf before speed work to warm muscle, think
something like deep heat or tiger balm will work also, he also advised full
warm up and cool downs, something didn't always give enough time to.
if you can do 25/30 X 3 sets single calf raises and not have pain should be
good to go, calf will tire but shouldn't pain. Also foam rolling good for knots
best of luck.

Thanks to both of you. I'm keeping optimistic that if I take a low mileage week this week and be diligent with calf raises, it'll be better. I've been foam rolling it over the last few days, and I'm pretty sure it has been helping. Good to hear both of you are doing better now.

aero2k · 25-04-2016 9:04am

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

You can even get milk with added protein now, who'd've thunk!

Yeah, and what's with that Lullaby stuff - does it sing you to sleep?

Darren 83 · 25-04-2016 9:20am

My daughter (she is 7)wants to run, but due the club training times I can't go down this route. So the only option is to train her my self but ,I'm at a loss on a plan for her. Any one got any ideas.

Chivito550 · 25-04-2016 9:22am

Darren 83 wrote: »

My daughter (she is 7)wants to run, but due the club training times I can't go down this route. So the only option is to train her my self but ,I'm at a loss on a plan for her. Any one got any ideas.

Find another club to coach her then if possible. I wouldn't go down the route of coaching her unless you know what you are doing! Also, a 7 year old shouldn't be running alone. She should be running with other 7 year olds.

Darren 83 · 25-04-2016 9:31am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Find another club to coach her then if possible. I wouldn't go down the route of coaching her unless you know what you are doing! Also, a 7 year old shouldn't be running alone. She should be running with other 7 year olds.

Unfortunately it's not a option my club will only take over 12, and the other club times don't suit. I would rather she ran with kids her age. I'm also not looking for anything serious. She has shown an interest and I would like to encourage her.

Firedance · 25-04-2016 9:34am

Darren 83 wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not a option my club will only take over 12, and the other club times don't suit. I would rather she ran with kids her age. I'm also not looking for anything serious. She has shown an interest and I would like to encourage her.

What about a junior parkrun Darren, I know there are only two in Dublin, either of them close to you?

Darren 83 · 25-04-2016 9:40am

Firedance wrote: »

What about a junior parkrun Darren, I know there are only two in Dublin, either of them close to you?

I live in Drogheda so it's out of the way.

Firedance · 25-04-2016 9:50am

Darren 83 wrote: »

I live in Drogheda so it's out of the way.

There's one in Rush...a small trip down the M1! I know its probably not convenient though, pity.

Darren 83 · 25-04-2016 10:02am

Firedance wrote: »

There's one in Rush...a small trip down the M1! I know its probably not convenient though, pity.

I was thinking something like this to train her on the grass and repeating the first week a few times maybe twice a week.

http://www.burningforlearning.com/Kids_5K_Training_Guidelines.pdf

Dubgal72 · 25-04-2016 10:04am

Darren 83 wrote: »

My daughter (she is 7)wants to run, but due the club training times I can't go down this route. So the only option is to train her my self but ,I'm at a loss on a plan for her. Any one got any ideas.

Hi Darren,

I would steer away from any sort of formal training, especially solo, at age 7. it is just too young.
As mentioned above, ideally she would be running in a group. As that is not possible, keep it loose, keep it unstructured but most of all, make it fun. Lots of chasing, hide and seek, 'potch the pole' etc. Is there a greenway where you live? You could organise lots of 'old school' games like British Bulldog, What Time Is It Mr Wolf? etc.

When you're out for a walk, ask her to run to xx point and count slowly or quickly, as you feel the run warrants (no need to use an actual stopwatch). Ask her if she thinks she can get to x point before a count of 10 (short run) or xx point before 25 (a longer run). This way you will scaffold her pace judgement.

From my own experience, informal games up to age 9/10, a club structure with peers from age 10-14/15 but sandwiched with lots of other activities and a more specialized approach from age 15 will work nicely and keep her interested.

Enjoyment is key and a too focused approach age 7 can kill that very easily. I'd be more interested in fostering a lifetime love for running at this stage.

Darren 83 · 25-04-2016 10:12am

Thanks for the replys, she mad to go out running with me, always asking how for I ran and wanting to race me. I want to keep it as fun as possible and enjoy running as much as I do. I live near a nice park so will set up some games for her.

RayCun · 25-04-2016 10:32am

Darren 83 wrote: »

I was thinking something like this to train her on the grass and repeating the first week a few times maybe twice a week.

http://www.burningforlearning.com/Kids_5K_Training_Guidelines.pdf

At her age, the most important thing is that she has fun.
Then, that she improves her balance, agility, and speed.
Then that she develops a good running form, light on her feet.

Learning how to run for 25-30 minutes without a break is way, way down on the list. And it works against all the other things above - it's not fun, it won't help her speed, and as she gets tired she'll tend to run badly, and pick up bad habits.

I think if you want her to run, you really, really need to work out how to get her into a group of kids her own age. Maybe there are other parents in your club with kids of that age, and you can work out something with them?

(even consider other sports! which is not something you'll hear me say very often

)

Sacksian · 25-04-2016 10:55am

Definitely, don't try to coach her yourself, or on her own.

Otherwise, I would say this...

RayCun wrote: »

(even consider other sports! which is not something you'll hear me say very often )

A lot of really good juveniles come into the sport from having developed agility and coordination skills (as well as aerobic development) from other sports. I can think of a couple of current all-Ireland juvenile champions - and internationals - who came into athletics from other sports at a fairly late age (several masters too!).

Most kids don't need too much specific training to learn the skill of running (and I definitely think it is a skill to run), if they're playing other field sports - if you ever see kids' races, their form would put 99% of adults to shame.

Hopefully, she has a lifetime of running ahead of her - don't be in a rush!

demfad · 25-04-2016 12:16pm

Darren 83 wrote: »

My daughter (she is 7)wants to run, but due the club training times I can't go down this route. So the only option is to train her my self but ,I'm at a loss on a plan for her. Any one got any ideas.

Agree with other posts here re. the need for fun.

Orieneteering is super for kids. A kind of running treasurehunt.

Look for the 'come and try it' events in this link:
http://www.orienteering.ie/fixture
The Finglas scatter series is suitable too if in Dublin. No experience necessary. €3
Lots of stopping and starting, sprinting for the controls when spotted etc etc. Perfect for all kids (small and grown ups)
It's only a few euro to enter the child adults might be 7.

Having an all round very active childhood is probably most important for a child's potential in running. Plenty of running about, climbing, wrestling etc. etc. The bigger the variety the better the balance etc. will become.

runnerholic · 25-04-2016 9:34pm

I am planning to run the Malaga marathon this December, followed by Paris in April 2017, followed by Berlin in September 2017. Is this a reasonable target or am I taking on too much?

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