Electrical Heating

12-10-2020 7:06pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If you had them across the entire house Id imagine the electricity bills could be huge

Agreed, but you will constantly find people that will do this and swear that it is a cheap way to heat a home.

This thread is a prime example of how people can be mislead. The link in the OP says it all. The heaters only use less power because they produce less heat. This means that they will have to be switched on for longer resulting in no saving whatsoever.

12-10-2020 10:57pm

Bruthal wrote: »

That is like having a diesel generator at the end of the garden, generating electricity, then wondering why it is so expensive to heat the house with the 100% efficient heaters.

50% of wasted heated from the diesel going into the coolant that's being ignored while they're at it. :rolleyes:

12-10-2020 11:01pm

...or the exhaust...

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 10:58am

I have a small home office which I'm using all day every day and for the forseeable. It's on the north side of the house (a renovated, insulated stone cottage). The window faces east but is overshadowed by a porch. So the room is never really that warm compared to the rest of the house.

I'm not a lover of much heat, but I'm looking for something to take the sting out of the air. I don't think I really want one of those "blow heaters" as they tend to produce alot of hot air which disappears quickly (IMHO) as soon as they're turned off. I'd rather something that I could leave running all day or even 24/7 (or on a timer) with a low amount of heat.

I was looking at something like this:

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/dimplex-ecot1ft-wall-mounted-tubular-heater-40w-408-x-81mm/3951f

I know it's intended mainly for cupboards etc, but would it work say for example, if I mounted it above the door and left it on all day ? Or would I be better looking at something like this:

https://newreviews.co.uk/reviews/dimplex-oil-free-baby-column-heater/

The room is roughly 1.9m L x 2.9m W x 2.5m H but it does have alot of furniture (desk, chair, bookstand, small TV stand and a sofa)

Thanks in advance for any advice

colm_mcm · 14-10-2020 11:07am

The first one is completely useless in your case. You’d get as much heat from a light bulb.

Heaters are pretty much 100% efficient, so you get out what you put in. The more heat you get, the more electricity you use.
There’s no electric heater that will heat better for less money.

If you have a dual meter, then a storage heater might be worth it.

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:15pm

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I should phrase my question another way ... for a room of it's size, what heat output would I need to just "take the coldness out of the room" ? From various calculators I've used, I need between 750 watts to 1 KW for a room of this size. But none of them seem to tell me how warm this would make the room (I appreciate heat is rather subjective). Would the 500w "skirting heater" here be suitable for example ?

https://www.currys.ie/ieen/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heating-and-cooling/dimplex-glen-2150n-skirting-convector-heater-white-10169261-pdt.html

Also, I presume the above would be far more suitable for long term running (ie 7-8 hours per day) than something like this:

https://powercity.ie/product/S0505M

Thanks again

14-10-2020 12:30pm

Get a plug-in oil radiator.

Once the room is up to temperature, it will switch itself off. If your room is well insulated, the radiator will come on infrequently so costs are not as bad as you'd think.

Use heavy curtains on the window if you want to further insulate the room and keep heating from escaping.

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:32pm

salonfire wrote: »

Get a plug-in oil radiator

Thanks. So would the DeLonghi oil radiator above be sufficient ? Or would I need more than 500w ?

phormium · 14-10-2020 12:33pm

I'd agree with above, oil filled plug in radiator is very efficient for an electric heater and gives good heat, I have one in my kitchen all winter when the central heating is not on during the day, only pulled it out of it's storage spot few days ago as the days have got colder.

When I'm working at the table and it's really cold I slide it in under the table, once my legs are warm I'm fine

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 12:34pm

phormium wrote: »

once my legs are warm I'm fine

Yea to be honest I feel the same ! I might just try to get that DeLonghi or something similar

14-10-2020 2:29pm

phormium wrote: »

oil filled plug in radiator is very efficient for an electric heater

All electrical heaters have almost identical efficiency, which is close to 100%.

colm_mcm · 14-10-2020 2:37pm

The main reason I’d pick an oil filled over a convection heater is that it gives off a more pleasant heat. A converter can be smelly and give off dry heat.
They’re also inherently safer.

I would say get a regular sized oil filled heater, they’ll have a thermostat anyway so as long as you’re trying to keep the room at a certain temperature, the power consumption will be the same as a smaller one.

Duke of Url · 14-10-2020 2:39pm

EGH20AW_1_Supersize.jpg?width=937&height=937&v=24

Would something like this work for you?

colm_mcm · 14-10-2020 2:45pm

Duke of Url wrote: »

Would something like this work for you?

That’s got an app and stuff? Might be handy.
Just to note, it’s still a 2000w heater but it’s smart capabilities might help to not have itself heating all the time.

On another note:
I’m don’t think that heating the room 24 hours a day has much benefit if the room loses heat.
Put it on a timer to come on an hour before you start work.

Duke of Url · 14-10-2020 2:52pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s got an app and stuff? Might be handy.
Just to note, it’s still a 2000w heater but it’s smart capabilities might help to not have itself heating all the time.

On another note:
I’m don’t think that heating the room 24 hours a day has much benefit if the room loses heat.
Put it on a timer to come on an hour before you start work.

Looks good alright

https://www.buyitdirect.ie/p/electriq-2000w-wall-mountable-low-energy-smart-wifi-alexa-designer-glass-heater-ultra-slim-only-8cm-bathroom-heater-ip24-egh20aw?refsource=bidieadwords&mkwid=sgDgGq1t3_dc&pcrid=442403281605&product=EGH20AW&pgrid=104084082193&ptaid=aud-891296860025:pla-839045911843&channel=googlesearch&gclid=CjwKCAjww5r8BRB6EiwArcckCzAtJVvchwnQM77p7BvKmC-cVYNel5mefz3MaLMHBfTG1NanpG4QuxoC85gQAvD_BwE

colm_mcm · 14-10-2020 3:18pm

This is what the business end looks like. Regular convector heater.

Can’t believe they’re recommending to mount those up high on a wall.

POBox19 · 14-10-2020 3:36pm

Oil filled radiator, 1.5kw should do the job for about €50. I got one a few years ago for a small home office and I could set it and forget it. Ran it on a thermostat setting all day, sometimes overnight. The room was always comfortable, no smell or noise. It was very easy on the electric bill, in fact didn’t notice it at all.

IsThisOneFree · 14-10-2020 9:07pm

Thanks for the replies.

That's an interesting looking piece of kit alright, it might be a bit big for the office though as there isn't much floor space left that isn't occupied already :-) The oil radiators tend to be a bit taller and slimmer at least. But thanks !

Duke of Url · 15-10-2020 10:41am

https://www.aldi.ie/electric-convector-heater-%26-remote/p/801602386423200

JackieChang · 17-10-2020 7:04pm

I've just moved into an apartment (rented) and the storage heater in the kitchen doesn't heat up at night like it's supposed to.

There is only one cable coming out of it, and it's plugged into a regular old socket. There doesn't seem to have one of those "spurs" with a little neon light like the other storage heater in the hall.

The only feature that works is the on demand convector heater. But it does not store heat at night like it's supposed to.

Can storage heaters work as normal (i.e. charge up when the night rate kicks in) if they are plugged into a regular old socket?

I don't know what else to check. It's literally stone cold when I wake up in the morning.

I also know exactly how they're supposed to work with the input/output knobs etc. I lived in an apartment before with these.

However I'm a bit discombobulated with this one.

JoChervil · 19-10-2020 5:37pm

Could someone, please, explain me one thing. Why lower BER rating excludes air to air heat pump?

If someone has bad rating and storage heaters, so must pay much for heating anyway. So can't such person install air to air pump and add some heat from storage heaters, if from the pump is not enough? Or install two pumps? Wouldn't it be a better solution, than using only storage heating?

But maybe I don't understand something and it is simply not working in a lower rating house?

Imagine a situation, when it is a single retired person spending a lot of time in Spain in a winter time. They are not interested in a big investment and a big job done. Instead of spending money on better insulation or wet heating system they prefer to travel. They already have storage heaters. Wouldn't it be a good solution for them to add air to air heat pump/s, if it requires so little job and investment?

19-10-2020 6:21pm

JoChervil wrote: »

Imagine a situation, when it is a single retired person spending a lot of time in Spain in a winter time. They are not interested in a big investment and a big job done. Instead of spending money on better insulation or wet heating system they prefer to travel. They already have storage heaters. Wouldn't it be a good solution for them to add air to air heat pump/s, if it requires so little job and investment?

BER do not take personal circumstances are the cost of an investment into account.

From this link:

"Your BER is calculated through energy use for space and hot water heating, ventilation, and lighting."

splashthecash · 19-10-2020 7:21pm

We have a 2 metre wall in which we are planning on installing a built in electric fire into but there is so much choice, what should I be looking for first and foremost? Power output? How much electricity it uses? Any brands I should I stay away from?

We’ll probably go for something around 90-100cm wide

colm_mcm · 19-10-2020 7:26pm

They all use the same amount of electricity for the amount of heat you get out.

20-10-2020 1:46am

If you heat a liquid or a mass then the heat doesn't eff off as fast as heating a gas (air) so while they use the same lecky for the same heat some have lower duty cycles.
An oil filled rad will have a lower duty cycle than a convection heater.

Duke of Url · 20-10-2020 9:04am

splashthecash wrote: »

We have a 2 metre wall in which we are planning on installing a built in electric fire into but there is so much choice, what should I be looking for first and foremost? Power output? How much electricity it uses? Any brands I should I stay away from?

We’ll probably go for something around 90-100cm wide

We just got a 120cm Electric fireplace installed. You will need an outlet installed.

Our fireplace was mounted into a cabinet.

Bruthal · 20-10-2020 9:41am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

If you heat a liquid or a mass then the heat doesn't eff off as fast as heating a gas (air) so while they use the same lecky for the same heat some have lower duty cycles.
An oil filled rad will have a lower duty cycle than a convection heater.

If it costs the same, I'd imagine the duty cycle must be the same. Might be more actual cycles with one than the other maybe.

ercork · 20-10-2020 12:57pm

JoChervil wrote: »

Could someone, please, explain me one thing. Why lower BER rating excludes air to air heat pump?

If someone has bad rating and storage heaters, so must pay much for heating anyway. So can't such person install air to air pump and add some heat from storage heaters, if from the pump is not enough? Or install two pumps? Wouldn't it be a better solution, than using only storage heating?

But maybe I don't understand something and it is simply not working in a lower rating house?

Imagine a situation, when it is a single retired person spending a lot of time in Spain in a winter time. They are not interested in a big investment and a big job done. Instead of spending money on better insulation or wet heating system they prefer to travel. They already have storage heaters. Wouldn't it be a good solution for them to add air to air heat pump/s, if it requires so little job and investment?

I don't see any reason why an A2A can not be used as a replacement for storage heaters, regardless of BER. If your storage heater is pumping out 1.5kW of heat every hour, your A2A can do the exact same thing at half the cost (or less). Most A2As can churn out 3 or 4 kW of heat per hour so could replace a couple of large storage heaters.

In fact, replacing a storage heater with an A2A would actually improve your BER as the type of heating system you have is one of the main factors that feeds into the BER formula.

20-10-2020 10:44pm

Bruthal wrote: »

If it costs the same, I'd imagine the duty cycle must be the same. Might be more actual cycles with one than the other maybe.

A thermal mass has better heat retention that a gas. Hot air will leave an Irish house to beat the band.

A WBS will hold heat long after the fire is out.

Bruthal · 20-10-2020 11:47pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

A thermal mass has better heat retention that a gas. Hot air will leave an Irish house to beat the band.

A WBS will hold heat long after the fire is out.

Which is cheaper to heat the living room, oil filled or convection?

Presumably if the oil filled retains heat longer after its turned off, it takes longer to heat up also.

20-10-2020 11:55pm

Dunno. I tend to go oil filled because I can stick a cushion on it and sit on it worst case scenario.
It'd be worth sticking a kWh counter on to find out.

I'm just applying the does a fridge work better with stuff in it or empty after you open the door mentality.

Bruthal · 21-10-2020 12:09am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Dunno. I tend to go oil filled because I can stick a cushion on it and sit on it worst case scenario.
It'd be worth sticking a kWh counter on to find out.

I'm just applying the does a fridge work better with stuff in it or empty after you open the door mentality.

It's an interesting one. The oil filled compared to convection is hard to compare. As well as kWh meter, a room Stát is required. Both to keep the room at exact same temp will read the same kWh over time. But that's the crux. Setting both the same. Although the same exact matching comparison of 2 different convection heaters would also have the same requirements.

If oil filled and convection are placed outdoors, the oil filled may go on and off while the convection doesn't. The oil is limiting the element output. So the 2kw convector will put out 2kw the entire time, but the oil filled might not, depending on the ambient air temp.

An upright empty fridge, the cool air rolls out when door opened. But full of already cooled mass, it's more stable. But when you first put the contents in, there may be a longer compressor running time than if just re-cooling the air again.

21-10-2020 12:26am

I used to put mass into a fridge (bottles of water) as I took it out (edibles).
Van life. Worked great. Top loading is a head-wreck unless you over-engineer it with a carousel and sliding drawers.

Open fire or WBS.
WBS hands down.

Bruthal · 21-10-2020 12:31am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Open fire or WBS.
WBS hands down.

One is directly heating outside much more than the other there most likely.

I installed a boiler stove here and linked it into the gas heating system. I prefer it to the gas, although gas likely cheaper in my setup. Stove certainly miles ahead of open fire.

21-10-2020 12:42am

Because one's heating air thuther is heating cast iron methinks.

I'm still insulating....haven't even started on better sources.
Geothermal would be nice. Oil will be first.

Always better to unify a system than several stand-alones, I've found anyway, it gets real interesting when the sources become loads.

Bruthal · 21-10-2020 12:53am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Because one's heating air thuther is heating cast iron methinks.

That, plus you have control of the directed air intake.

I'm still insulating....haven't even started on better sources.
Geothermal would be nice. Oil will be first.

Always better to unify a system than several stand-alones, I've found anyway, it gets real interesting when the sources become loads.

The stove would do me on its own. Gas is handy with the sonoff relays in its motorised valves though. Faulty thermistor on its return pipe this week though. Too dangerous for me to fix, obviously.

Padre_Pio · 21-10-2020 1:07am

Bruthal wrote: »

Which is cheaper to heat the living room, oil filled or convection?

Presumably if the oil filled retains heat longer after its turned off, it takes longer to heat up also.

Technically it's the same to heat the room, but the temperature ramps are smoother with the oil heater.

A convection gives you heat in a second, but once it turns off the heat disappears if there's any draught.
An oil takes a while to get up to temp, but the oil stays warm even when the element is turned off, so you get a nicer, more even heat.

JackieChang · 21-10-2020 1:16am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

WBS hands down.

What is wbs?

21-10-2020 1:42am

Bruthal wrote: »

The stove would do me on its own.

Arah I like making things complicated. Like heating a back boiler on a stove with geo-thermal.

....not saying I will..just that I will be able.
I've a colleague can heat his radiators with his immersion.
He's no mains at his light switches. Just signal cable to a central relay control network.

WBS = wood burning stove.

autumnalcore · 21-10-2020 9:10am

You can get diy install spit heat pumps where the lines are push fit and pre evacuated. Loads of chinese ****e out there but Sanyo units come up fairly regularly for about €700 delivered on a pallet from UK on ebay.

ercork · 21-10-2020 9:20am

autumnalcore wrote: »

You can get diy install spit heat pumps where the lines are push fit and pre evacuated. Loads of chinese ****e out there but Sanyo units come up fairly regularly for about €700 delivered on a pallet from UK on ebay.

That's true. Just bear in mind that you have to get the thing commissioned by somebody certified in handling the gas that is contained in the heat pump. Usually this means somebody who works in refrigeration - a regular plumber or handyman would not be certified to do this.

ercork · 21-10-2020 9:27am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

WBS = wood burning stove.

Burning wood (or any solid fuel) creates nasty airborne particles which are bad for the health of the people in the room and also the people in the wider neighbourhood. I'd avoid if at all possible. That said, a stove is miles better than an open fire.

John.G · 21-10-2020 11:22am

phormium wrote: »

I'd agree with above, oil filled plug in radiator is very efficient for an electric heater and gives good heat, I have one in my kitchen all winter when the central heating is not on during the day, only pulled it out of it's storage spot few days ago as the days have got colder.

When I'm working at the table and it's really cold I slide it in under the table, once my legs are warm I'm fine

I have one for years but only use it very occasionally in a attic bedroom if some guests are staying, I took a few readings off the rad a good few years ago and came across them very recently.

The rad has air sensing thermostatic control but also cuts out/in on the oil temperature (safety) stat if set to its highest setting continuously on its 2000w setting.

Temp stat turned to max. (3 settings)
Rated Output: 800W. Measured Output: 800W. Rad surface temp: 72C
Rated Output: 1200W. Measured Output: 1200W Rad surface temp: 96c
Rated output:: 2000W. Measured Output: 1500W. Rad surface temp: 110C

21-10-2020 5:30pm

I've a burning anything vendetta. Baby steps, one has to be realistic at the same time. I'm trounching small engines atm.
That includes people burning things on my behalf. eg. "recyclers" specifically waste incineration steam turbine electric generators and a whole host of dirty Irish power derived import.

Edit..I suppose hydrogen is alright...and other things that don't reduce life/air quality.

bazman · 21-10-2020 9:36pm

I’ve a 55m2 area and I’m looking for recommendations on an effective electric heating system. I’ve read about infrared panels, infrared underfloor, storage, panel radiators etc. All the info sources appear to have an element of bias. The area will be well insulated.

Would anyone have recommendations?

Tuco88 · 21-10-2020 9:58pm

I'm a bit backwards on this. I have two solid fuel stoves in the house, one with a back boiler. Ive access to woodland, personally I couldn't ever see the stove going, I can't explain the connection to a fire. I am all for greener the better, Next car will hopefully be electric in a few years yet tho.

Id like to get solar panels soon and looking forward to it tbh.

I am not sure whats the best green/efficient heating option of a 1950s built house atm. Its still Oil/Gas atm still I think. If a fella was to go for one what would you recommend?

alan4cult · 21-10-2020 11:22pm

What do you mean effective, as in cheap?
Have you a night rate meter?
Any electric heating is going to be expensive so storage is going to win if you can use the night rate.

22-10-2020 3:20am

Me? No clue....I'm as green as you are on the subject! :pac:

Heat exchangers. Passive input and insulation would be my bias.

Tuco88 wrote: »

I can't explain the connection to a fire.

Me neither it's a massive bloomin' hole in the building that weighs 5 ton. I doubt ours will ever return a quarter of what it loses.

Kaybaykwah · 22-10-2020 3:54am

ercork wrote: »

If the insulation and airtightness are brought to a good level then a heat pump would be a really good option.

Air to water are the most common for heating and hot water but are fairly expensive to install. It's also quite a big job, requiring the installation of pipes, rads, underfloor heating, etc.

Air to air are much cheaper and easier to install and could be a good option depending on the internal layout of the house. They don't do hot water but if, as the previous post says, the immersion heater is used during off peak times, this is a decent option for hot water.

Agreed. I live in Canada, and my house has been rehabbed in parts for insulation and in particular, airtightness. It was built around 1910. Our heating is in 3 phases with heat pump for cold, then electric boiler for colder and heating oil for coldest weather. I do however plan to nix the oil furnace and huge reservoir to rid myself of the carbon based and gain space in the basement. Hydro power is relatively cheap where we live. We have only been here since december 2018 and I have found that the heat pump has been a really valuable element in energy savings. It also provides air conditioning in our hot summers. The oil and electric boiler heats water rads in colder temps.

I would encourage looking at heat pumps because they are increasing efficiency at colder temps.

bazman · 22-10-2020 8:46am

Thanks for replying. I mean between the various options out there is there one someone would recommend after installing. As examples, underfloor vs panels? Infrared vs convection vs storage? Are there any specific products that people would recommend?

I don’t currently have night saver electricity.

Electrical Heating

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