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Longest stay possible in a short term let
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02-05-2018 9:32am#1What is the longest time period that it is possible to rent a house via Airbnb / booking.com etc to the same individual without falling fowl of any laws and slipping into the standard tenancy where the house would need to be registered with RTB? For instance, would be it possible to rent a house to the same individual for 70 ~ 90 days without issue?0
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5 months + 28 day notice period is the new long term letting for private landlords0
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QuickQuestion3 wrote: »What is the longest time period that it is possible to rent a house via Airbnb / booking.com etc to the same individual without falling fowl of any laws and slipping into the standard tenancy where the house would need to be registered with RTB? For instance, would be it possible to rent a house to the same individual for 70 ~ 90 days without issue?
To avoid the RTB, the letting has to be for the purpose of a holiday. A holiday lasting longer than 3 weeks is unusual.0 -
To avoid the RTB, the letting has to be for the purpose of a holiday. A holiday lasting longer than 3 weeks is unusual.
Can you give a link for your interpretation? I think you are passing your own interpretation/opinion off as fact again.
Here is what the RTB say about it, it says nothing about "holiday" or "3 weeks", it does say that bookings made through "online residential accomadation booking service" are exempt from RTB, and specifically refers to Airbnb.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/register-a-tenancy/is-your-property-exempt-from-registration/0 -
Can you give a link for your interpretation? I think you are passing your own interpretation/opinion off as fact again.
Here is what the RTB say about it, it says nothing about "holiday" or "3 weeks", it does say that bookings made through "online residential accomadation booking service" are exempt from RTB, and specifically refers to Airbnb.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/register-a-tenancy/is-your-property-exempt-from-registration/
The best source of information is the legislation itself, not some blurb put out for guidance only. look at subsection 3(f) below.
RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).
(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—
(a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13 (1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,
(b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,
(c) a dwelling let by or to—
(i) a public authority, or
(ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9 (2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,
(d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,
(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,
(f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,0 -
The best source of information is the legislation itself, not some blurb put out for guidance only. look at subsection 3(f) below.
RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).
(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—
(a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13 (1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,
(b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,
(c) a dwelling let by or to—
(i) a public authority, or
(ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9 (2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,
(d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,
(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,
(f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,
Yes, it doesn't apply to holiday homes, what's new about this? The RTB specifically states that Airbnb lets do not have to be registered. Not everyone who uses Airbnb is on holiday, There is nothing in the legislation about 3 week limits nor that it must be a holiday. It does however state that residences let as holiday homes are exempt.
Read the link to the RTB site, it very clearly states Airbnb type lets are exempt. How could a state body censure a landlord when it specifically states they are exempt, their "remit does not extend" to it.0 -
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Read the link to the RTB site, it very clearly states Airbnb type lets are exempt. How could a state body censure a landlord when it specifically states they are exempt, their "remit does not extend" to it.
What is the legislative basis for the RTB site saying that? The RTB doesn't make the law, only applies it.0 -
Claw Hammer wrote: »What is the legislative basis for the RTB site saying that? The RTB doesn't make the law, only applies it.
Considering they are a statutory body set up with the remit to apply the law, when they categorically state that Airbnb is not within that remit, what are you to conclude? That they are wrong?
Arguments like this are a waste of time, this isn't my opinion, it states it unambiguously on their website. If you want to argue against the RTB website, then at least post a link to show they are wrong, I'm sure the RTB would appreciate you showing them the error of their ways.0 -
Considering they are a statutory body set up with the remit to apply the law, when they categorically state that Airbnb is not within that remit, what are you to conclude? That they are wrong?
Arguments like this are a waste of time, this isn't my opinion, it states it unambiguously on their website. If you want to argue against the RTB website, then at least post a link to show they are wrong, I'm sure the RTB would appreciate you showing them the error of their ways.
I am not arguing against the RTB website. The comments on it have to be understood in light of the governing legislation. The RTB would quickly crack down if there were people in Air BnB for a year who were not being considered tenants. The original query was at what point would the RTB draw the line.0 -
lOOK BELOWCan you give a link for your interpretation? I think you are passing your own interpretation/opinion off as fact again.
Here is what the RTB say about it, it says nothing about "holiday" or "3 weeks", it does say that bookings made through "online residential accomadation booking service" are exempt from RTB, and specifically refers to Airbnb.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/register-a-tenancy/is-your-property-exempt-from-registration/
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/register-a-tenancy/is-your-property-exempt-from-registration/
The RTB remit does not extend to:
tenancies in local authority housing or under shared ownership lease arrangements.
holiday letting agreements.
the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
if a tenant lives with the spouse, civil partner, parent or child of the landlord and there is no written letting agreement in place.
if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service).
There are further rare examples under the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act 1978 and Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 when a dwellings may be exempted, for example:
where a rented dwelling that may, in certain situations, be purchased by the tenant to take ownership of
where a tenant may apply for a new tenancy on the ending of an earlier tenancy, if they can show long occupation or they have spent money on improvements of the property0 -
Can you give a link for your interpretation? I think you are passing your own interpretation/opinion off as fact again.
Here is what the RTB say about it, it says nothing about "holiday" or "3 weeks", it does say that bookings made through "online residential accomadation booking service" are exempt from RTB, and specifically refers to Airbnb.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/register-a-tenancy/is-your-property-exempt-from-registration/
Where does it say that on the link you posted?0 -
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Where does it say that on the link you posted?
Seriously?
First paragraph "The RTB remit does not extend to:"
Fifth key point down.
"if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service)".
The second key point is:
"holiday letting agreements"
Your first, incorrect post, stated it had to be for the purposes of a holiday of duration less than three weeks to avoid a tenancy/RTB situation. You are wrong, it has to be neither a holiday nor less than three weeks. Airbnb bookings, no matter what the purpose and unless you can show otherwise, duration are not within the remit of the RTB, as per their website.0 -
We used to rent a holiday home in Clare for the school summer holidays - way more than three weeks..If we decided to do the same thing this year, we would still be renting a holiday home and we wouldn't be looking for or getting any tenants rights.
Anyway I don't see how the RTB could keep track of all the holiday homes in the country - it's a mad idea.0 -
Last year I actually got legal advice on the matter, the solicitor answer was that you have to show that the intention to stay of the guests is temporary, for example the guests are actually on holiday or on a temporary assignment of a few months or students coming to study for a few months. In any case any stay above 3 months could be challenged even if the short-stay/temporary stay intentions of the guests were made clear at the start of the letting. In addition regular cleaning services included and an all-inclusive package (internet/TV...) are other indicators of a holiday letting. In any case the situation is not black and white if challenged.0
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Seriously?
First paragraph "The RTB remit does not extend to:"
Fifth key point down.
"if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service)".
The second key point is:
"holiday letting agreements"
Your first, incorrect post, stated it had to be for the purposes of a holiday of duration less than three weeks to avoid a tenancy/RTB situation. You are wrong, it has to be neither a holiday nor less than three weeks. Airbnb bookings, no matter what the purpose and unless you can show otherwise, duration are not within the remit of the RTB, as per their website.
The legislation says nothing about Air BnB. If you look at that page you linked it is clearly intended for guidance only. It has words like may and makes reference to rare situations like a right to acquire a fee simple. the key section of the Act is Section 3. It is much longer than the page you have linked. The RTb clearly don't intend it to be exhaustive. Air BnB lettings are generally for days at a time and the occupier of the occupier of the accommodation is thus a licensee. You incorrectly claimed that the word holiday was not mentioned and incorrectly claimed that I said there was a 3 week limit on such a letting. If you look further down the RTB qualifies the situation with licencees by saying that calling a document a licence does not mean it is a licence. The RTB are alive to attempts to circumvent the legislation by dressing up occupancy agreements as something other than a lease. The only short term letting which is exempt from the Act is holiday letting. AirBnB occupiers are licensees. The O/p is wondering whe4n a short letting may be deemed a lease. AirbnB is not leasing. Any other letting is caught, no matter how short unless it is for a holiday. I suggested 3 weeks as getting to the limits of a holiday but it might be longer or shorter. I simply said it would be unusual for a holiday to last longer than 3 weeks. It is not unknown but relatively infrequent.0 -
The RTb clearly don't intend it to be exhaustive.
The RTB are alive to attempts to circumvent the legislation by dressing up occupancy agreements as something other than a lease. .
You are doing it again, presenting your interpretation/opinion as fact. You posted that Airbnb letting had to be for the purposes of a holiday and any more than three weeks is "unusual".
There is no "may" in "The RTB remit does not extend to:"
Of course it is not exhaustive, all scenarios cannot be covered, but in the case of Airbnb, the RTB are concise, their remit does not extend to online Airbnb booking. It's right there on their website.
As for the "alive to attempts", how many Airbnb guests have had cases before the RTB? How many owners have been brought before the RTB for Airbnb bookings?
Are you seriously suggesting that legislation defines the length of a holiday a person takes? Where does it say "two weeks is usual, but take three weeks, well that's unusual"
I get that you know a tiny bit more than most about tenancies, but the statutory body, who are the authority on tenancy disputes, state a position on Airbnb, but you don't accept that, you are right, they are wrong, how can anyone argue with that?0 -
You are doing it again, presenting your interpretation/opinion as fact. You posted that Airbnb letting had to be for the purposes of a holiday and any more than three weeks is "unusual".
There is no "may" in "The RTB remit does not extend to:"
Of course it is not exhaustive, all scenarios cannot be covered, but in the case of Airbnb, the RTB are concise, their remit does not extend to online Airbnb booking. It's right there on their website.
As for the "alive to attempts", how many Airbnb guests have had cases before the RTB? How many owners have been brought before the RTB for Airbnb bookings?
Are you seriously suggesting that legislation defines the length of a holiday a person takes? Where does it say "two weeks is usual, but take three weeks, well that's unusual"
I get that you know a tiny bit more than most about tenancies, but the statutory body, who are the authority on tenancy disputes, state a position on Airbnb, but you don't accept that, you are right, they are wrong, how can anyone argue with that?
Air BnB occupiers are licencees. I don't doubt Air Bnb arrangements as they are currently constituted don't come under tenancy rules. They don't come under the holiday exemption at all. The o/p is concerned with when a short term letting may become a tenancy. Air BnB never starts off as letting in the first place. The RTB are alive to the fact that there may be an attempt to dress up an arrangement so as to avoid the legislation eg by calling a lease a licence. It follows they are also alert as to whether a letting is for the purpose of a holiday or not. It is a question of fact as to what constitutes a holiday. A holiday is not defined in the legislation but most people know what a holiday is when they see one. The o/p is about duration. Once the holiday goes beyond a normal duration, more examination of the situation would be needed. Every case would have to be examined on its facts.
It could well be argued that a letting to a teacher for 3 months during summer holidays 100 miles from the school where the teacher is employed is a holiday. A letting for two weeks to building workers who are working on site ner the letting may not be for a holiday.
The o/p seems to be trying to have short term lettings without coming under the RTB. The only way of doing it is by way of holiday lettings. If he goes into licences he also avoids the RTB, but that is not what he asked.0 -
Air BnB occupiers are licencees. I don't doubt Air Bnb arrangements as they are currently constituted don't come under tenancy rules. They don't come under the holiday exemption at all. The o/p is concerned with when a short term letting may become a tenancy.
The RTB are alive to the fact that there may be an attempt to dress up an arrangement so as to avoid the legislation eg by calling a lease a licence. It follows they are also alert as to whether a letting is for the purpose of a holiday or not.
The o/p is about duration. Once the holiday goes beyond a normal duration, more examination of the situation would be needed. Every case would have to be examined on its facts..
Finally, there it is, you accept that the statutory body, with a remit to enforce the terms of the RTA, who have the authority to penalise property owners, can declare that Airbnb bookings are beyond their remit.
Is there a legal definition for a "normal holiday"?
As for the rest, have you any link to, or any example of the RTB censuring a property owner for Airbnb letting under the terms of the RTA?. If you don't, then what you are saying is just supposition.0 -
Finally, there it is, you accept that the statutory body, with a remit to enforce the terms of the RTA, who have the authority to penalise property owners, can declare that Airbnb bookings are beyond their remit.
Is there a legal definition for a "normal holiday"?
As for the rest, have you any link to, or any example of the RTB censuring a property owner for Airbnb letting under the terms of the RTA?. If you don't, then what you are saying is just supposition.
I have pointed out, what is a holiday is a question of fact, not a question of law. How can there be a legal definition of a question of fact? The RTB have found supposed licences to be leases. They could well, if the circumstances permitted find the same with regard to an Air BnB letting. Air BnB prices are, for the moment, sufficiently high, commission is heavy that it is unlikley that there are long term arrangements hiding behind AirBnB. The RTB give guidance based on the current situation. If something is abused they will revise their guidance.0 -
I have pointed out, what is a holiday is a question of fact, not a question of law. How can there be a legal definition of a question of fact? The RTB have found supposed licences to be leases. They could well, if the circumstances permitted find the same with regard to an Air BnB letting. Air BnB prices are, for the moment, sufficiently high, commission is heavy that it is unlikley that there are long term arrangements hiding behind AirBnB. The RTB give guidance based on the current situation. If something is abused they will revise their guidance.
Second guessing what will be legal or illegal in the future is a fools errand, no body knows. As of today, according to the RTB, Airbnb is beyond the remit of the RTB.
If you are going to claim a holiday is not a holiday, it stands to reason that there has to be some parameter or definition which can be used to validate that claim. If I go to Baltimore for 6 weeks, is that not a holiday because it is more than the normal three? This is idiotic.
I have a house advertised on Airbnb, guests book it through Airbnb and I am paid the day they arrive, I don't ask them the purpose of their stay, it's none of my business and besides which, they could just lie about it. The guest could be working during his/her 6 week stay, they could be on holiday, they could be plotting world domination. Personally I wouldn't let it for six months, but if I did, it would all be done through the Airbnb website, and as of today, the guest would be beyond the remit of the RTB. I wouldn't have to register that 6 month Airbnb stay.0 -
Thank you all for your feedback, there is a lot more to consume on the matter that I first expected. To give a little more detail on the matter at hand, and it is a little ironic that it is a result of the new laws that created this situation!
The person that contacted me is moving back to Ireland after working abroad for a long time. They own a property in Ireland that was rented out while they were away. I believe notice was given to the current tenants but the owners must now await a few months before the house will be free for them to move in. As a result, they need to find a place where they can stay for a short period of time until their own property becomes free. I'm guessing they are unable to find a property that they can rent out for a short period of time.0 -
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This is a discussion site. It is entirely reasonable to speculate on what might happen if someone tried to claim a letting was not a tenancy on the grounds it was short term. The question asked by the o/p was hypothetical and just because there is a position today it doesn't men there might not be a change. The RTb always say the will examine the situation on the ground.Second guessing what will be legal or illegal in the future is a fools errand, no body knows. As of today, according to the RTB, Airbnb is beyond the remit of the RTB.
I never szaid 3 weeks was the limit, merely that it would be a starting point. If you rent a house in Baltimore for the purpose of a holiday for 6 weeks and decide after 4 weeks that you don't want to leave after 6 weeks and decide you want to be a tenant, what would happen? If the landlord insisted that the letting was for a holiday and you claimed it was a lease, an analysis would have to take place. Various factors would be looked at. The length of the letting would be relevat. the longer it is, the less likely it is for a holiday.If you are going to claim a holiday is not a holiday, it stands to reason that there has to be some parameter or definition which can be used to validate that claim. If I go to Baltimore for 6 weeks, is that not a holiday because it is more than the normal three? This is idiotic.
Air B&B guests are licencees. they are beyond the remit of the RTB for that reason, not because it is AirBnB. Whether they are on holiday or business is irrelevant. If you took a letting for 6 months the situation on the ground would be examined. If your guest claimed to be a tenant, the fact that he had been introduced by AirBnB would be only one factor.I have a house advertised on Airbnb, guests book it through Airbnb and I am paid the day they arrive, I don't ask them the purpose of their stay, it's none of my business and besides which, they could just lie about it. The guest could be working during his/her 6 week stay, they could be on holiday, they could be plotting world domination. Personally I wouldn't let it for six months, but if I did, it would all be done through the Airbnb website, and as of today, the guest would be beyond the remit of the RTB. I wouldn't have to register that 6 month Airbnb stay.
https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0914-000847/TR0914-000847-DR0414-11559%20Report.pdf0
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