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First Luas, Now the Sunday Business Post Goes to War on the Metro

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  • 05-03-2006 2:55pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭


    As a matter of casual interest, is Sunday Business Post publisher Thomas Crosbie any relation to Harry Crosbie of the Spencer Dock Development Company, is a consortium made up of Treasury Holdings, CIE and Harry Crosbie?

    The Sunday Business Post on the eve of the Luas lauch posted a bogus story about the Luas crashing, breaking down with Mary Coughlan on board and an unnamed expert calling that the Luas "was the worst train journey" they had ever taken.

    The more things change...

    http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=12362-qqqx=1.asp
    Green light for Metro, but at what cost?

    05 March 2006 By Niamh Connolly
    After almost a decade of speculation on a metro for the capital, the government finally seems to have moved the project beyond a notion to a real possibility, if last week’s public consultation on route options can be trusted.

    ‘‘We’re out of speculative mood and we’re into implementation mood,” said Padraic White, chief executive of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), at the unveiling of three route options from Dublin city centre to Swords in north Co Dublin via Dublin Airport.

    But when it comes to declarations about multimillion euro transport projects, the public is increasingly taking a jaundiced view, judging from the response to the ambitious €34.4 billion Transport 21 announcement. Eight years ago, the then minister for public enterprise, Mary O’Rourke, said that the Metro would be on the way within seven years; the government formally announced the project in 2000,while the 2002 Programme for Government said it would be in place by next year.

    There is some sense of scepticism about the latest deadline of 2012 for the launch of Metro North which will run from St Stephen’s Green.

    The government’s history of delivering major infrastructural projects on time and within budget does not bode well for the target set for the Metro North project.

    While recent roads projects are coming in on time since the government jettisoned a ‘back-of-the-envelope’ approach to costings, it will be some time before costings on projects will reflect the final sum.

    Dublin Port Tunnel, which was due to open in December 2004, is running €500 million over budget. It has also been leaking, just three months off its latest launch date.

    Metro North will be the fifth - and by far the biggest - project for the RPA, which was responsible for Luas, a project that was delayed and over-budget by millions, critics were quick to note last week.

    The last cost estimate for Metro, which went into the Dail records in July 2004, was €1.2 billion, based on 2002 figures.

    This is precisely why Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is not revealing the cost estimates for Metro North, according to a government source.

    In the past, speculative figures were advanced which ‘‘played straight into the hands of construction companies who then inflated figures’’, he said.

    Cullen said he wanted to prevent ‘‘a mugging for the state on speculation’’ and said the government was satisfied that the €34.4 billion cost of Transport 21 covered Metro.

    But Fine Gael is not convinced.

    The government may want to protect taxpayers from add-on costs, but there is unease that it is not being transparent about the financing arrangements, said Fine Gael TD Olivia Mitchell.

    She said she knew of no other project where ‘‘some sort of budget is not made available’’.

    ‘‘They’re spending public money and to say that it might be a billion or five billion is nonsense. Everybody has a budget and everybody knows this. All he’s trying to do is protect himself in case it turns out to be twice the price,” said Mitchell.

    ‘‘We have no way of judging the authenticity of Transport 21 until he gives some kind of breakdown of the various projects.

    “We’re not asking for it down to the last penny, but at least down to the last billion.”

    The complexity of a major project like Metro means the first spade is unlikely to hit the ground for two years, even if the RPA’s timeline goes to plan.

    It will take four years to build the Metro, but objections from the public, as well as negotiations over land purchase and possible court cases, could extend that estimate.

    The government’s Strategic Infrastructure Bill may ease some of the delays, since the RPA will not be required to engage in lengthy consultations with property owners before tunnelling more than 10 metres below their homes.

    With a general election expected in 2007, there’s little doubt that the political will is there to advance Metro and it appears that the exchequer finances are now available to push ahead.

    This is a far cry from the long-standing ‘should we, shouldn’t we’ debate that has plagued plans for a metro for years.

    Just three years ago, former transport minister Seamus Brennan was in a major standoff with a sceptical former finance minister, Charlie McCreevy, over the cost of the project.

    The RPA’s first estimate of €4.8 billion for Metro sent shock waves through the cabinet, prompting Brennan to order a review of the estimates.

    The high cost weighed heavily on the shoulders of officials at the Department of Finance, particularly since Iarnrod Eireann proposed a cheaper alternative involving a Dart spur from Spencer Dock on the north quays to Dublin Airport.

    Brennan sought the advice of a Spanish transport expert, Professor Manuel Melis Maynor, an engineer who supervised the recent construction of a Madrid Metro extension.

    Maynor was invited to Ireland in 2003 to give the government a lesson in cost control.

    Maynor said he could build a metro for a fraction of the RPA’s proposed €4.8 billion estimate.

    He recommended 24-hour tunnelling and advised the government to change the planning laws to allow a rapid building programme.

    He gave estimates showing that the Madrid metro cost €46 million a kilometre to build, compared to Dublin’s estimated €150 million a kilometre.

    The state should be less willing to pay substantial fees to ‘‘consultants who consult with consultants and advisers who advise advisers’’, Maynor told a meeting of politicians who included Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Tanaiste Mary Harney.

    The RPA dramatically revised its initial estimate of €4.8 billion to €3.4 billion by scaling back the number of stops and design specifications, and introducing 24-hour tunnelling.

    The RPA further revised its estimate to €1.2 billion for the direct capital cost of construction in 2002 prices, Cullen told the Dail in July 2004. This is the last figure made publicly available.

    Yet, in the same month, Ahern said the cost of an underground metro system for Dublin could not be justified over other state priorities.

    That obstacle now appears to have been removed with the Transport 21 plan, though the public will remain in the dark about the final price until a contractor has signed on the dotted line.

    The Green Party, which has always supported the Metro project, is calling for an extension south to link up with Luas at Beechwood Station in Ranelagh.

    This is in the heart of transport spokesman Eamon Ryan’s Dublin South constituency.

    With a political eye on the success of Luas in boosting property prices, expect more politicians to start lobbying for Metro extensions as the general election approaches.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    As a matter of casual interest, is Sunday Business Post publisher Thomas Crosbie any relation to Harry Crosbie of the Spencer Dock Development Company, is a consortium made up of Treasury Holdings, CIE and Harry Crosbie?

    The Sunday Business Post on the eve of the Luas lauch posted a bogus story about the Luas crashing, breaking down with Mary Coughlan on board and an unnamed expert calling that the Luas "was the worst train journey" they had ever taken.

    The more things change...

    http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=12362-qqqx=1.asp

    That article isn't questioning Metro. It's questioning the RPA/Governments ability to deliver the project to plan.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SBPost wrote:
    The government’s history of delivering major infrastructural projects on time and within budget does not bode well for the target set for the Metro North project.

    The Post looks to be rightly questioning the government’s ability to deliver on cost and within budget.
    SBPost wrote:
    Cullen said he wanted to prevent ‘‘a mugging for the state on speculation’’ and said the government was satisfied that the €34.4 billion cost of Transport 21 covered Metro.

    More like prevent "a mugging" of government for possibly going over cost. The metro is a blank check at the moment.

    SBPost wrote:
    The government may want to protect taxpayers from add-on costs, but there is unease that it is not being transparent about the financing arrangements, said Fine Gael TD Olivia Mitchell.

    What's this? I'm seeing my self having to agree with Olivia Mitchell. Although, after her comments about the interconnecter and other things, she has convinced me she knows nothing about proper planning of public transport


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭MarkoP11


    The two Crosbie's are very different people not related

    The article is factually correct its one of the few to present all the figures correctly

    Regardless we know T21 public transport is €16 billion, we know how much the buses are getting since that was in the budget, the figures for Iarnród Éireann are public domain (IEI Presentation and Journal) and require little extrapolation to the current costs (Navan Pace is the only unknown but the SRR gave a ballpark on that). The figures for Luas are also reasonably well know (€30m/km is roughly correct). Add that up subtract from €16 billion and you get a very large number even allowing a margin of close to a a billion.

    Picks holes all you want in the analysis http://www.platform11.org/transport21/costs.php either I'm missing something or the metro is to cost close to €6 billion

    As Sherlook Holmes said
    We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    The title of this thread is very misleading, did you read the article first? Its a good factual article from Niamh Connolly. Irelands scepticism of major projects like the metro is justified. The FF government have been very inept and slow on delivering major infrastructure on time, on budget and of proper quality. Hopefully the RPA, IE and the NRA et al are moving faster up their learning curve now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    Winters wrote:
    The title of this thread is very misleading, did you read the article first? Its a good factual article from Niamh Connolly. Irelands scepticism of major projects like the metro is justified. The FF government have been very inept and slow on delivering major infrastructure on time, on budget and of proper quality. Hopefully the RPA, IE and the NRA et al are moving faster up their learning curve now.

    Of course this stuff should be held up for questioning.

    As for the title of the thread, the SB Post went for (want of a better term) to war on the Luas and gushingly reported every bizzare hysteria story from Luas being the evil entity who took Bewleys Cafe away from us, to perhaps the most appalling article on rail I have yet read on the eve of the launch of the Green Line which not only claimed that the trams carrying Minister Mary Coughlan broke down, but an unnamed expert (naturally) claiming it was the worst train journey he had ever taken. No source given. It was simply a final and vidictive salvo by the SB Post on Luas disguised as journalism and reporting.

    I have no doubt regardless of the cost or specifactions the metro, the SB Post will have it in its sights. They seem to have a problem with with the RPA and I suspect it was to do with the streets of Dublin being ripped up during the construction and the "business car" crowd were not happy.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning the RPA costs on the metro...just like there is nothing wrong with questioning the relationship between CIE and Treasury Holdings and if this arrangement is in the interests of public transport in Ireland? Which I am not saying it isn't, but some details of what percentage of the money from the sale has gone into public transport developments would be nice.

    I am glad that Thomas Crosbie and Harry Crosbie are not related. God help us if they were.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Well they are right and there needs to be a fight put up against the Airport-Duck Pond metro route. Please kill this project now!

    There is no place for this project in this city unless it terminates in Swords and serves Connolly Station. There is no pressing need for the airport service other than a by the way.

    Who will use a metro to the airport?

    A family going on holiday? No, convenient more eonomical to drive and park.
    A person travelling from outside Dublin? No, as there are no rail connections so it is more convenient to take a direct bus link.
    A business traveller? Maybe as long as they are going to the city centre but will probably take a taxi and charge it.
    An airport worker? Yes, if they live on the route and work 9-5. No, if they don't!

    Ask yourself, How many times do you travel to the airport per annum?

    The project is a white elephant and it needs to be stopped before good money is wasted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    BrianD wrote:
    Well they are right and there needs to be a fight put up against the Airport-Duck Pond metro route. Please kill this project now!

    There is no place for this project in this city unless it terminates in Swords and serves Connolly Station. There is no pressing need for the airport service other than a by the way.

    Who will use a metro to the airport?

    A family going on holiday? No, convenient more eonomical to drive and park.
    A person travelling from outside Dublin? No, as there are no rail connections so it is more convenient to take a direct bus link.
    A business traveller? Maybe as long as they are going to the city centre but will probably take a taxi and charge it.
    An airport worker? Yes, if they live on the route and work 9-5. No, if they don't!

    Ask yourself, How many times do you travel to the airport per annum?

    The project is a white elephant and it needs to be stopped before good money is wasted.

    That is a very short sighted statement IMO. The metro is not only going to Swords, its going past it to a big park and ride at Lissenhall. This will stop thousands of cars coming into the city centre. Only 20% of passengers will be going to the airport, the other 80% will be ordinary commuters. People have got to stop thinking of this as "the airport metro", it is so much more than an airport express. It will relieve a lot of traffic in north Dublin providing it has sufficient capacity. It also does not need to go to Connolly if it interchanges at Glasnevin and Tara Street. The metro is badly needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    BrianD wrote:
    There is no place for this project in this city unless it terminates in Swords and serves Connolly Station. There is no pressing need for the airport service other than a by the way ... The project is a white elephant and it needs to be stopped before good money is wasted.

    Before you criticise it anymore, perhaps you should go and look at the proposed routes it's going to take.

    It doesn't terminate at the airport anymore - it runs to swords. It doesn't serve Connolly station but it'll cross the Maynooth and Midland line so there's strong possibility for integration there.

    More importantly, it serves huge chunks of the city that never had a rail connection. With proper bus connections, it can have an even larger cachment area. Bringing rail to the thousands of people living in Swords and Ballymun not to mention the the thousands working in the city centre and the airport is good enough reason to build it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Yeah the P&R at Lissenhall is gonna be excellent. Imagine commuting on a jam free M1 to Lissenhall and quickly changing to metro for a sprint into the city centre, totally avoiding stress on your way to work.

    Obviously other P&R opportunities like this hould be exploited, Sallins is spitting distance from the M7 as it curves around the north of Naas (if the DART can be extended there), Maynooth area is very close to the M4 and the current Junction 2A would provide hassle free access to an Intel station and large P&R. Something could be done near the M1 at Balbriggan too someday. I'm not sure about suitable locations on the N11 near Bray but maybe they exist. The metroWest obviously provides umpteen P&R locations.

    There's no point pretending Dublin hasn't expanded into westmeath etc. People still have to get to Dublin from these places and catching them as they approach the city on freeflowing motorways is the place to do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    markpb wrote:
    Before you criticise it anymore, perhaps you should go and look at the proposed routes it's going to take.

    It doesn't terminate at the airport anymore - it runs to swords. It doesn't serve Connolly station but it'll cross the Maynooth and Midland line so there's strong possibility for integration there.

    More importantly, it serves huge chunks of the city that never had a rail connection. With proper bus connections, it can have an even larger cachment area. Bringing rail to the thousands of people living in Swords and Ballymun not to mention the the thousands working in the city centre and the airport is good enough reason to build it.

    I understand that the position is that "it will be extended to Swords" i.e. the first phase is to the airport only (no doubt the money will run out then). Why are hearing the words "strong possibility of integration" and "good enough reason" to build it. Of course building a rail line through a section of the city will benefit a certain section of the community but is it the optimum solution? No. Why is the airport line getting the first go ahead? Is it for sound transportation reasons or is it because large swathes of north county Dublin can now get the go ahead for development? In reality, we should be building a transport service that encourages higher population densities within the city area and not to service commuters beyond the city limits (and encouraging urban sprawl).

    What also amazes me that we are seeking a public opinion on this! I'm all for democracy but surely the RPA should have the expertese and the ability to design a single route to the airport. It is plain obvious that this beyond the RPA's expertise. Why are the obsessed with terminating the line at the duck pond in Stephens Green. There is actually only one reason - the old believe that the green line could be upgraded to a metro line which is only based on the guage of the tracks. Wow! how breathtakingly stupid is this!

    This line has to be part of an integrated system not a stand alone route . One hopes that IR will bid for the route as part of an extended DART system. At least they have a vision for rail in Dublin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    BrianD wrote:
    I understand that the position is that "it will be extended to Swords" i.e. the first phase is to the airport only (no doubt the money will run out then).

    I've seen nothing in the recent documents to indicate that it will be staged to Swords. I would seriously hope it won't.
    In reality, we should be building a transport service that encourages higher population densities within the city area and not to service commuters beyond the city limits (and encouraging urban sprawl).

    Absolutely. This is why I'm all for the RPA metro. Apart from Swords and Lissenhall, it's cachement area is entirely inside the M50, which I think is a better way of serving dublin than the IE way of adding stations along the N3 and adding trains to Maynooth and Leixlip. How is the KRP or electrification of the Maynooth line encouraging higher population densities in the city centre?
    This line has to be part of an integrated system not a stand alone route. One hopes that IR will bid for the route as part of an extended DART system. At least they have a vision for rail in Dublin.

    They're not showing it very well so far. Their big plan for the interconnector, which I fully support because it adds another train line in the city centre, serves people outside Dublin far better than it serves people inside Dublin. Their plan for a spur to the airport served almost no new areas except for green fields and low density housing.

    The RPA and their metro might not be perfect but they're doing some things right. Their metro, if the central route is picked, connects with the luas green line, the luas red line, could connect with the maynooth line (if they and CIE get their act together), will serve a P&R area at the city limits and a group of medium-high population/work areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    BrianD wrote:
    I understand that the position is that "it will be extended to Swords" i.e. the first phase is to the airport only (no doubt the money will run out then). Why are hearing the words "strong possibility of integration" and "good enough reason" to build it. Of course building a rail line through a section of the city will benefit a certain section of the community but is it the optimum solution? No. Why is the airport line getting the first go ahead? Is it for sound transportation reasons or is it because large swathes of north county Dublin can now get the go ahead for development? In reality, we should be building a transport service that encourages higher population densities within the city area and not to service commuters beyond the city limits (and encouraging urban sprawl).

    What also amazes me that we are seeking a public opinion on this! I'm all for democracy but surely the RPA should have the expertese and the ability to design a single route to the airport. It is plain obvious that this beyond the RPA's expertise. Why are the obsessed with terminating the line at the duck pond in Stephens Green. There is actually only one reason - the old believe that the green line could be upgraded to a metro line which is only based on the guage of the tracks. Wow! how breathtakingly stupid is this!

    This line has to be part of an integrated system not a stand alone route . One hopes that IR will bid for the route as part of an extended DART system. At least they have a vision for rail in Dublin.

    Have you taken a look at the whole Transport 21 plan Brian? It's all about the integrated system you speak about. The metro will be built to Swords in one phase, its a definite. Stephen's Green was chosen as the terminus for a number of reasons. Dublin 2 is the number one destination point in the city. Stephen's Green will have Metro, Luas and interconnector (DART) integrating at the one point, it will be a major interchange station.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    markpb wrote:
    Their metro, if the central route is picked, connects with the luas green line, the luas red line, could connect with the maynooth line (if they and CIE get their act together), will serve a P&R area at the city limits and a group of medium-high population/work areas.

    The metro station on O'Connell Street is situated opposite the Gresham Hotel. The red line stop is currently opposite Wynns Hotel on Abbey Street while the proposed O'Connell Street stop on the Green line (Option A BX) will be behind O'Connell's statue.

    How much of a connection that is depends on how far you like walking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    Winters wrote:
    The metro station on O'Connell Street is situated opposite the Gresham Hotel. The red line stop is currently opposite Wynns Hotel on Abbey Street while the proposed O'Connell Street stop on the Green line (Option A BX) will be behind O'Connell's statue.

    *sigh*

    I give up. Would it be that hard for them (IE/RPA) to do the obvious thing and connect them? I'm not sure which is more useless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Have you taken a look at the whole Transport 21 plan Brian? It's all about the integrated system you speak about. The metro will be built to Swords in one phase, its a definite. Stephen's Green was chosen as the terminus for a number of reasons. Dublin 2 is the number one destination point in the city. Stephen's Green will have Metro, Luas and interconnector (DART) integrating at the one point, it will be a major interchange station.

    Certainly the best plan that the government has come up with to date but not a patch on what's been proposed and readily achievable in the short to medium term by IR.

    However, the thinking that underpins the T21 plan is flawed. There is an obsession with Stephens Green that is not simply explained by the fact that it is a busy business district.

    It is unthinkable that O'Connell St. can be on the route and Connolly Station isn't. It may be a few 100 metres but it is a huge distance when it comes to inspiring public transport users. Dublin Airport is a national airport and the ability to transfer quickly from a major rail station and bus station is critical. The proposed metro line will mean that to jump onto other lines will require two changes in most cases.

    Also I recall that the nod of the head to the Circle Line lobby group seems to be the rationale for the 'Metro West'. Bizarrely this will be built from Tallaght back to the airport instead of the other way around. What clown thought of that?

    Furthermore, why do we insist in calling this 'metro' when it should be called Dart?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    BrianD wrote:
    Certainly the best plan that the government has come up with to date but not a patch on what's been proposed and readily achievable in the short to medium term by IR.

    Because IR's plan gains the city an airport link and nothing else. It might take longer but the overall result (with the metro) is much better.

    Only slightly unrelated, but I personally wouldn't want IR operating any new rail lines in Dublin. I know there are technical reasons for some of the flaws but between the irregularity of the timetable, the massive gaps between trains and the volatiltiy and unprofessionality of the drivers, it would be an embarassment.

    25 minute gap between trains at rush hour to the airport? Trains leaving late because the driver is out chatting to the station staff? No service because of another walk-out. What's the point in building a new train track so IE can make a hash of it.
    It is unthinkable that O'Connell St. can be on the route and Connolly Station isn't. It may be a few 100 metres but it is a huge distance when it comes to inspiring public transport users.

    If the metro connected with an electrified Maynooth line, people could change quickly and easily for Connolly and the rest of the Dart/IC rail line. Under the new Dart plans, the same train would take them all way south to Bray without a change. Only going north or on an IC train would require another change.
    Furthermore, why do we insist in calling this 'metro' when it should be called Dart?

    Who cares what it's called. Yes, the Dart, metro, luas, etc should be branded under the one symbol but let's get it built first and worry about marketing when its nearly complete.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,744 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I'm not sure which is more useless.
    IE and the RPA suck equally.

    Some posters here would have us believe that the CIE unions were responsible for the Fall of Rome, the Black Death and WWII, and that the RPA are a "Safer Bet" with their dodgy tracks that they knew about but did nothing to fix until it became a potential issue, the 30 Metre Red line sardine cans, un-integrated approach to Metro layouts (Glasnevin binned, no integraton on O'Connell St). And their Metro that has become a tram, with some level crossings in the works.

    I get a sense of deja-vu all over again.

    I despise Irish Rail with equal intesity because their ticketing policies defy logic (try getting a ONE WAY TICKET for a Friday morning train from Connolly to Longford, and you'll pay the rip-off MONTHLY RETURN fare (€29) for the ONE WAY JOURNEY and you'll have the wonderful pleaseure of being ALONE in a cold sh1tty train for 1.5 hours getting your eardrums assaulted, bones jarred and guts shaken), they haven't bought any decent trains since the breakup of CIE (new DARTs possibly excepted) they seem to think sh1t railcars with COMMUTER logos are great for 3 hour journies a.k.a Sligo and Rosslare. And that doesn't begin to describe it.

    But the RPA is a "Safer Bet" in my rear end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    BrianD wrote:
    Certainly the best plan that the government has come up with to date but not a patch on what's been proposed and readily achievable in the short to medium term by IR.

    However, the thinking that underpins the T21 plan is flawed. There is an obsession with Stephens Green that is not simply explained by the fact that it is a busy business district.

    It is unthinkable that O'Connell St. can be on the route and Connolly Station isn't. It may be a few 100 metres but it is a huge distance when it comes to inspiring public transport users. Dublin Airport is a national airport and the ability to transfer quickly from a major rail station and bus station is critical. The proposed metro line will mean that to jump onto other lines will require two changes in most cases.

    Also I recall that the nod of the head to the Circle Line lobby group seems to be the rationale for the 'Metro West'. Bizarrely this will be built from Tallaght back to the airport instead of the other way around. What clown thought of that?

    Furthermore, why do we insist in calling this 'metro' when it should be called Dart?

    As far as I am aware if the line runs from the Green to Connolly it cannot then go to O'Connell Street as the curve would be too tight, so its a case of pick one or the other and it looks like they picked O'Connell Street.

    The reason I feel they chose to start the west route from Tallaght rather than from Ballymun is because this way it guarantees the system gets finished. If as expected it goes over budget the government cannot simply pull the plug half way through whereas if it was getting built back from Ballymun to Talaght it may well have had the plug pulled before it actually reached Tallaght. It may not make sense to build backwards but in the context of Irish political landscape it makes perfect sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    BrianD wrote:

    Furthermore, why do we insist in calling this 'metro' when it should be called Dart?

    If its going to be Luas interoperable, low floor, RPA designed, line of sight running..why do we insist calling this 'metro' when it should be called Luas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision



    The Sunday Business Post on the eve of the Luas lauch posted a bogus story about the Luas crashing, breaking down with Mary Coughlan on board and an unnamed expert calling that the Luas "was the worst train journey" they had ever taken.


    http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=12362-qqqx=1.asp

    How do you know that was bogus?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Well it couldn't be true ... it's a tram not a train! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    The reason I feel they chose to start the west route from Tallaght rather than from Ballymun is because this way it guarantees the system gets finished. If as expected it goes over budget the government cannot simply pull the plug half way through whereas if it was getting built back from Ballymun to Talaght it may well have had the plug pulled before it actually reached Tallaght. It may not make sense to build backwards but in the context of Irish political landscape it makes perfect sense.

    Well if this is the kind of thinking that is at the higher level then we are in big trouble! Imagine the above being the underpinning logic.

    If money is short (and it won't because the project is supposed to be a PPE). I would prefer to see the metro west extend from the airport west and then south than a go no where shuttle between Tallaght and who knows where. Firstly, building and operating from the airport makes for an economical operation and means that all on this line have a means of reaching the centre via the magical airport. Plus resources and maintinance depots can be shared. Building from Tallaght would be a licence to print money for the PPE partner.

    Only in Ireland!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    the Luas "was the worst train journey" they had ever taken.

    Are you disagreeing? Whats great about the luas is that people like me in the sandyford area now have a transport system, where previously my only choice was to drive. Thats all. Its not the wonderful state of the art pleasure ride that people who don't use it think it is. Sardines anyone? It is without doubt the most horrible journey anyone can face in the morning and evening. Was it even worth one third of what they spent? Its cheap and flimsy and is falling apart after 18 months. A bit of frost and the damn things don't even start. Irish people should be doing everything they can to stop this FF government going ahead with another transport system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭steve-o


    I had thought this was a real train, but it's seemingly a glorified Luas. What's the maximum capacity (people per hour each way)? Also, all 3 proposed routes seem to involve extensive elevated sections (like the one right up the main street in Ballymun). The visual impact will be unacceptable to a lot of people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭MarkoP11


    30-33k per hour roughly twice the proposed 18k from last year

    It took me 15 minutes to get from Connolly to Heuston this morning hardly quick journey and we didn't even get stuck on the Busaras Abbey Street section, the light sequencing is all wrong thats bad design and implementation. Luas from Heuston at 8:30-8:40 is horrible as is the evening trip back.

    You need metro and interconnector full stop, the major flaw in the metro was capacity the RPA took a big scare on that last year when I showed it was deficient its fixed now

    The government must take blame for the failure to deliver infrastructure on time


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Gegerty wrote:
    Are you disagreeing? Whats great about the luas is that people like me in the sandyford area now have a transport system, where previously my only choice was to drive. Thats all. Its not the wonderful state of the art pleasure ride that people who don't use it think it is. Sardines anyone? It is without doubt the most horrible journey anyone can face in the morning and evening. Was it even worth one third of what they spent? Its cheap and flimsy and is falling apart after 18 months.
    Gegerty, what are you talking about? Is that the green line you're describing or the last time you used Aeroflot. I use the green line every morning and evening and I have never once encountered any of the problems you describe. What's cheap and flimsy about high spec Luas trams. I have never once had to stand on the Green line. The worst journey anyone could face in the morning? What about stressy motorists road raging each other with golf clubs in the Westlink queue, or smelly, sweaty, slow, jolting trips on Dublin Bus and then a skanger lights up beside you. The green line (and, city centre section excepted, the Red Line) is by far the most reliable convenient public transport in the entire city - out of all modes. Most areas of the city would amputate a limb to get one.
    Gegerty wrote:
    A bit of frost and the damn things don't even start.
    Now you appear to be making stuff up...
    Gegerty wrote:
    Irish people should be doing everything they can to stop this FF government going ahead with another transport system.
    ...and now I can't take you seriously at all. Get back into bed and then get out the right side this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    There are many reasons the RPA chose to start metro west at Belgard Road rather than Metropark/Ballymun.

    Firstly the alignment is more or less decided upon from Belgard to Blanchardstown.

    Secondly there is no development between Ballycoolin and Metropark.

    Thirdly the Blanch to Tallaght areas are the highest trip destinations behind 1st Place: City Centre and 2nd Place: Dublin Airport.

    By the way, dont be surprised if metro west phases 1 and 2 are combined and completed at the same time.

    There is a lot of private money and pressure the connect the three shopping centres of Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Liffey valley to public transport.

    Dont forget also that the metro west before it even goes near Ballymun will have connected the Red luas line, Lucan luas line, Kildare line and Maynooth line.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Winters wrote:
    There are many reasons the RPA chose to start metro west at Belgard Road rather than Metropark/Ballymun.

    Being from Lucan, when I saw what they were planning I immediately saw it was the right thing to do. Getting from one part of west Dublin to another is a more important goal for the line than getting up to Ballymun/Airport. Most people are either (1) getting from point a to b within west Dublin, or (2) getting from point a to the nearest Arrow or Luas stop so they can make it into town. They won't be using the Metro to get into town (via Ballymun) as it would be the long way around.

    It's true that building Metro West + North as initially separate like this will mean they have to build 2 separate depots, but I presume they were going to need 2 anyway. So no biggie.

    Having said this I won't be surprised if the press cries "Paddy Planning" when they see the plan.
    Winters wrote:
    By the way, dont be surprised if metro west phases 1 and 2 are combined and completed at the same time.
    Let's hope so. Phases 1+2+3 in one go would be even better. There is a massive, massive public transport deficit in the area. It still takes 15 minutes to drive from Lucan village to Castleknock, off peak - ridiculous. And you can't get a bus at all!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭carrotcake


    The Sunday Business Post on the eve of the Luas lauch posted a bogus story about the Luas crashing, breaking down with Mary Coughlan on board and an unnamed expert calling that the Luas "was the worst train journey" they had ever taken.
    the eve of the luas launch was a tuesday. i think you mean the evening herald, which i remember had that article the day before launch


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Gegerty wrote:
    Its not the wonderful state of the art pleasure ride that people who don't use it think it is. Sardines anyone? It is without doubt the most horrible journey anyone can face in the morning and evening. Was it even worth one third of what they spent? Its cheap and flimsy and is falling apart after 18 months.

    I got it from Sandyford yesterday just after 1730Hrs and I have to agree with you. No, hold on a minute, now that I think about it you post appears to be a steaming pile of sh1t.

    It was busy but not uncomfortably crowded. They were running every 5 minutes and there were no real queues on the platforms.

    I read you post yesterday so when I got on it I paid particualar attention to the state of the tram and I have to say it was in much better shape than I expected. No sign of flimsyness or falling apart. It was clean with little or no signs of damage, either through general wear and tear or intential abuse. Considering the number of people carried thus far I think this is good.

    Anyone working in Sandyford and travelling to town that still uses their car simply for a commute is not right in the head. I was in Charlemont in around 15 minutes, seated (like the vast majority of my fellow passengers) all the way. How long would that have taken in a car?

    MrP


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