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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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Comments

  • #1902
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »

    If the independence parties want to hold a referendum on independence then they must pass a 2/3 majority in their own parliament as per the statute of autonomy which you referred to multiple times in your last post.

    Wrong.
    Explained already yesterday .
    See post 1873


  • #1903
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Catalonia is an autonomous community within Spain
    That is your opinion, but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans ( see referendum of the 18/06/06 )

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The Spanish constitution does not name or refer to Catalonia as a nation.

    No, and the Portuguese one neither.

    But the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia , which is the important one for Catalonia, does recognize Catalonia as a nation.

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    People in Spain don't recognise Catalonia as a nation .
    Please provide solid proves of what you are writing here. Thanks for that

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    no other country, state or nation recognises Catalonia as a nation.
    Scotland ? If no, no problem, the day will come . ( Stupid " requirement " anyway... : live for yourself, forget the fancy clothes and the shiny car to impress the neighbors...)
    That said, Ireland started to be free when the Irish people had decided so. No when the neighbors has decided so...

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Even pro independence supporters themselves recognise that Catalonia is not a recognised nation which is what they are agitating for.



    I don't think you understand well the-pro independence movement.
    A line in the Spanish Constitution , is what they are " agitating for " ??? :D:D:D


  • #1904
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    You can keep posting links from all around the internet about what politician said what, who punched a police man and other unrelated articles but this is all just noise to distract away from the facts and that you have no justification for the illegal actions of a minority of people in Catalonia.


    I understand that you want to keep talking forever about " illegal-illegal-illegal" , the " 2/3 " and " Constitution /not nation ", but other posters , including me, are interested in reading and writing about something else too. That include what happens in Basque Country, and what says the Spanish Prime Minister about Catalonia, for example .



    Thanks to let them the place to do so.


  • #1905
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    I understand that you want to keep talking forever about " illegal-illegal-illegal" , the " 2/3 " and " Constitution /not nation ", but other posters , including me, are interested in reading and writing about something else too. That include what happens in Basque Country, and what says the Spanish Prime Minister about Catalonia, for example .

    Thanks to let them the place to do so.

    This thread is about the Catalan Independence Referendum 2017 which has no legal, constitutional or democratic basis. Other posters including you have made the assertion that Catalonia is a nation not me. If you want to talk about the Basque country then start another thread.


  • #1906
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    No, this is what you understood...

    I haven't said that ...
    At all...

    You are mixing everything, once again ...

    :rolleyes:


    This is what you said, your words not mine.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    As a prove of this legality, the Spanish Constitutional Court in Madrid , which is the " supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution as says Wiki " did validate this referendum law as legal at the unanimity of his members, the 29th of November 2017.


    So, once again, the referendum law was legal regarding Catalan laws and Spanish laws.


  • #1907
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Can you please post facts and proves where it is said the" these people " are in minority ?

    In absence of clear and satisfactory responses, I will be force to think that, at the opposite, they are the majority.

    We've done this multiple times already. You can look up previous posts.

    The reality is that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain and don't want to live in this new made up Country.


  • #1908
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Not everything is in the Constitution.
    The last composition of the Spanish Government is not in the Constitution , for example.
    Does it means it's not real or legal ? No.
    Therefore, there is other law texts that complete this Constitution .
    Like the Catalan Statute, where it is written that Catalonia is a nation.
    ( this has been explained to you already yesterday by Golden Miller , and in a more intelligible way than me ...)

    For your information, the Constitution is 40 years old, and has been modified only twice ( for very minor changes ).


    If we follow your " idea ", that means the King had sign a text that is against the Constitution, which is , as you say , the " book of rules ".

    That is pretty serious....

    I propose that you launch a campaign to denounce this, in order to have him in trial for rebellion,sedition, and, since he was paid at the time to sign the text, for misuse of public funds as well.
    What do you think ?
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    That is your opinion, but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans ( see referendum of the 18/06/06 )




    No, and the Portuguese one neither.

    But the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia , which is the important one for Catalonia, does recognize Catalonia as a nation.


    Please provide solid proves of what you are writing here. Thanks for that


    Scotland ? If no, no problem, the day will come . ( Stupid " requirement " anyway... : live for yourself, forget the fancy clothes and the shiny car to impress the neighbors...)
    That said, Ireland started to be free when the Irish people had decided so. No when the neighbors has decided so...


    I don't think you understand well the-pro independence movement.
    A line in the Spanish Constitution , is what they are " agitating for " ??? :D:D:D

    I'm sorry but this is just waffle which I can't respond to because it is difficult to understand and doesn't make any sense.


  • #1909
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    This is what you said, your words not mine.


    This is what I thought .


    You still haven't understand the way the Referendum Law was passed in the Catalan Parliament .


    As said in my previous post : " Once again and again, the Catalan Parliament didn't need a 2/3 majority to pass the referendum law, as you wrongly think and wrongly spread the idea ."


    My posts, the article linked and the TC decision link is about that, how can you failed to see it ?



    Everybody except you understood perfectly that I'm talking about the legality of the way this Referendum Law was voted and passed in the Catalan Parliament.
    That was in response of your " 2/3 " requirement.

    I'm not talking about the legality of the content of the Referendum Law regarding the Spanish laws. This has nothing to do with your " 2/3 " requirement.


    Do you understand the difference now ?


    If not, you could check the basics here :
    ( you could have done it 8 months ago too, that would have prevent this thread to be spammed with fake assertion from your part )


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Self-determination_of_Catalonia


    It is clearly written :
    " the Spanish Constitutional Court endorsed the reform of the Parliament regulation that allowed passing the law "


    With links , similar to the one I gave already

    https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Constitucional-reglamento-Parlament-JxSi-CUP_0_713229236.html


    https://www.ara.cat/politica/TC-declara-constitucional-reforma-reglament-Parlament_0_1915008642.html


    Of course, I'm aware from the beginning that the content of the law has been declared unconstitutional , we all know that from day 1 ... :D:D:D. But that is not the point.



    I hope that, this time, you will understand that, no, the Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of votes to pass a law .

    They have done it in the past without legal problems, and , unless the regulations change, they can do it again the same way.


    If I have a bit of time one day, I will explain you that this " lectura unica " or " via expres " way of passing laws is common in Spain, and regulated by the rules .
    Everybody use it, the PP included at a national level.
    All Autonomous Parliaments accross Spain have this legal way of passing laws too .


    I don't want you to have an heart attack, but a modification of the Bible Spanish Constitution has been done this way too . Yep, same way ... ;)



    There is only when Catalonia uses it that it seems to be a problem for you.

    Why ? :confused:



    It is something to know before shouting " they broke they own rules !!! "


  • #1910
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Thread locked for review


  • #1911
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    First of all, apologies for taking so long to review. I only had time to do so today.

    Secondly, I already posted a mod warning on this thread:
    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    @Tickers and bertie 56. If you can't have a discussion in a civil manner, I'll ban you both from posting in this thread. Stop taking swipes at each other.

    And yet the two of you are still involved an ill-tempered back and forth that's spoiling the thread for everyone else.

    From reviewing recent exchanges it seems that neither of you is willing to concede a point and move on and instead just digging deeper into minutiae and semantics.

    So, let's get two things straight.

    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. Just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't significant. If it wasn't significant, it wouldn't have caused such a fuss at the time.

    2.). The Spanish Constitutional court ruled that the referendum law was unconstitutional. That's it. Other rulings in relation to parliamentary process are kind of immaterial here.

    So let's drop both these points, move on and try an be constructive. Please bear in mind the charter which says:
    Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.

    Thanks


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  • #1912
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Baron de Charlus;107312485
    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. Just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't significant. If it wasn't significant, it wouldn't have caused such a fuss at the time.
    It's not as simplistic as that at all.


  • #1913
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    (...)

    So, let's get two things straight.

    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. (...)

    2.). The Spanish Constitutional court ruled that the referendum law was unconstitutional. (...)


    1.) I agree with that.
    2.) I agree with that.

    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Of course, I'm aware from the beginning that the content of the law has been declared unconstitutional , we all know that from day 1 ...


  • #1914
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Another massive own goal by Spain, the politicians sentenced to 9/13 years for sedition

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49974289

    All this will do is strengthen the independence movement.


  • #1915
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Hard to tell, it's been running out of steam a good bit the last while due to rifts and infighting by the various parties to the independista coalition. Torra is nothing more than a Puigdemont puppet and the rest them are (rightly) outraged that he's sitting comfy in Brussels while their leaders are on trial (and now facing prison) for their activities.
    Was pretty obvious the rebellion charge was going to be discarded but the conviction for sedition still surprises me. I think Sánchez might have been hoping that they were found not guilty of that too but convicted on the misuse of funds charge.
    Be interesting to see what happens here the next few days. Telegram has been on fire with calls for grassroots protest and there has been some disruption at Sants train station yesterday and today but they've been struggling to muster the same level of protest and passion as they could in the aftermath of the "referendum".


  • #1916
    Barna77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Hector Savage wrote: »

    All this will do is strengthen the independence movement.


    Opinion polls say the opposite.
    Independence fatigue, like Brexit.


  • #1917
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Barna77 wrote: »
    Opinion polls say the opposite.
    Independence fatigue, like Brexit.
    Yeah they got one chance at it and now they can see what the outcome would be.
    PSOE waving an olive branch at a distance is also a factor, regardless of whether Spain every gets another government!


  • #1918
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    Hard to tell, it's been running out of steam a good bit the last while due to rifts and infighting by the various parties to the independista coalition. Torra is nothing more than a Puigdemont puppet and the rest them are (rightly) outraged that he's sitting comfy in Brussels while their leaders are on trial (and now facing prison) for their activities.
    Was pretty obvious the rebellion charge was going to be discarded but the conviction for sedition still surprises me. I think Sánchez might have been hoping that they were found not guilty of that too but convicted on the misuse of funds charge.
    Be interesting to see what happens here the next few days. Telegram has been on fire with calls for grassroots protest and there has been some disruption at Sants train station yesterday and today but they've been struggling to muster the same level of protest and passion as they could in the aftermath of the "referendum".
    I think some people got swept along with the excitement of it, especially with the bravado of Puigdemont and his utter conviction it was going to happen. Demographics, in due course, will go against it and the real issue for anyone living in Catalonia has always been the money contributed through equalisation.


  • #1919
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    I'm going to leave the office early and work from home this afternoon just in case there's any serious difficulty but so far from what I'm seeing/hearing any disruption/disobedience hasn't been too significant

    There has been some chatter about calling a strike for Friday, but if they can't muster a big turnout today of all days, I think the reaction to it will be, in general, very tame.

    The Diada was barely a month ago and the numbers out and about were notably and noticeably down on previous years.

    Don't know whether it's fatigue, Junqueras/ERC's willingness to be practical or conciliatory overtones from Sanchez but people just don't seem in the mood at the minute.

    Of course, a right wing victory in November could flip that on its head in an instant.


  • #1920
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    I will work from home on Friday, just in case ...


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  • #1921
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Plenty of protest and disruption going on at the minute. Maybe not quite as fatigued as I thought.

    Father in law been over with us for the last few days. Hope to god his flight home is ok!


  • #1922
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Are the riot police at the airport the Mossos or national police?


  • #1923
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Are the riot police at the airport the Mossos or national police?

    Both, predominantly Mossos.


  • #1924
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    Both, predominantly Mossos.

    How things have changed, last time out they were "protecting" the protesters. Crying shoulder to shoulder with the firemen.


  • #1925
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    How things have changed, last time out they were "protecting" the protesters. Crying shoulder to shoulder with the firemen.

    I think part of it is how closely the organisers kept their cards to their chest. Telegram only came alive with the details of the plans this morning. After the announcements of the sentences just before 10am the initial reaction was largely disorganized, primarily consisted of young people and there was a comparatively tame police reaction.

    Then the airport "takeover" was launched and was clearly well planned and I think it caught the cops off guard.


  • #1926
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    It's a real shame whats happening here, these protestors are destroying Catalunya.
    They want chaos, they want the country to burn.
    They are happy with this sentence - it gives them the excuse they crave for carnage.

    I hope they will be out by Christmas like it's been reported.


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  • #1927
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Suggesting that people being bombed might be ok is well below standard. Do not do it again here.


  • #1928
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,532 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Catalonia’s separatists were jailed for sedition, but brought down by hubris

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/15/catalonia-separatists-jailed-sedition-hubris?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

    A thoughtful, considered take on things.


  • #1929
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Looks like the EU is ignoring the repression going on in a EU country to concentrate on repression that is going on is an Asian country

    https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1184573500570456065


  • #1930
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    It's a real shame whats happening here, these protestors are destroying Catalunya.

    It's a nation, give it the choice of self-determination, then get on with it one way or another. Bully's and fascists though, prefer to keep their foot on people's neck's


  • #1931
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's a nation, give it the choice of self-determination, then get on with it one way or another. Bully's and fascists though, prefer to keep their foot on people's neck's

    read the guardian article above for the truth.
    These people have no interest in voting or democracy, they just want to declare independence based on their illegal referendum from 2017 - which pro remain people ignored as it was illegal - so of course it 'won'

    Now however the mask has slipped and we see the thugs burning the city they say they love.

    Irony.

    Mod Note: keep the language civil


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  • #1932
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Looks like the EU is ignoring the repression going on in a EU country to concentrate on repression that is going on is an Asian country

    https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1184573500570456065

    No repression going on here, none at all.

    Stop peddling lies


  • #1933
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    No repression going on here, none at all.

    Stop peddling lies

    Sure looks like the Spanish government is behaving like a repressive bully rather then engaging in talks to solve the issues between Catalonia and Spain.


  • #1934
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    read the guardian article above for the truth.
    These people have no interest in voting or democracy, they just want to declare independence based on their illegal referendum from 2017 - which pro remain people ignored as it was illegal - so of course it 'won'

    Now however the mask has slipped and we see the thugs burning the city they say they love.

    Irony.

    This has all come about because they are denied the right to self-determination. Do you not believe they should have the right to self-determination?

    Also, you obviously agree with the repressive approach Spanish authorities have taken in handling all this?

    Mod Note: keep the language civil


  • #1935
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    This has all come about because they are denied the right to self-determination. Do you not believe they should have the right to self-determination?

    Also, you obviously agree with the repressive approach Spanish authorities have taken in handling all this?

    Who wants self determination ?
    Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...
    Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???

    The referendum was illegal, they even broke the rules of their own parliament.
    The only repressive approach Spain has had was on 1/10/17 - which was farcical I admit.

    LAst night gangs of masked thugs were throwing bottles and molotov cocktails at the MOSSOS (the Catalan police) and shouting PUTA ESPANA PUTA POLICIA ... all the time - these people want to see carnage, they want a war, they couldn't give a **** about democracy or voting they just wanna declare their own made up country.


    Mod Note: keep the language civil


  • #1936
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Who wants self determination ?
    Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...
    Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???


    I would imagine if the bunch of lads from Laois had their own language, identified as a separate nation throughout history, and actually were independent in the past, then it might be an idea to hold a free and fair referendum.



    Catalonia has as much right to determine their own path - if they so wish - as we had back in 1919.


  • #1937
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    eire4 wrote: »
    Sure looks like the Spanish government is behaving like a repressive bully rather then engaging in talks to solve the issues between Catalonia and Spain.
    Technically there is no government, just an acting one until the election. The PSOE did put out feelers.


  • #1938
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Achasanai wrote: »
    I would imagine if the bunch of lads from Laois had their own language, identified as a separate nation throughout history, and actually were independent in the past, then it might be an idea to hold a free and fair referendum.



    Catalonia has as much right to determine their own path - if they so wish - as we had back in 1919.

    Fair is fine but not off what was deemed an illegal referendum. In a legal referendum the numbers are not there for it to pass.


  • #1939
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Who wants self determination ?
    Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...

    And you know this because? Why was there a referendum on anything ever? Surely no referendum ever passed because the status quo at the time was right all along, ye?
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???

    Except that's not the same analogy, is it? You are aware of the idea of nationhood, no? Like is this groundhog day? The same false analogies are given and easily disputed again and again


  • #1940
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    And you know this because?

    The proportion of people who identify as exclusively Catalan is in the high 30s.


  • #1941
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The proportion of people who identify as exclusively Catalan is in the high 30s.

    So the answer to an entirely different question settles the matter then!


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  • #1942
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    So the answer to an entirely different question settles the matter then!
    It's an answer to your question. Do with it what you will. Recent polls have also shown a decline in support for independence. You seem to be looking for someone to spar with and that's not me!:)


  • #1943
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    is_that_so wrote: »
    It's an answer to your question. Do with it what you will. Recent polls have also shown a decline in support for independence. You seem to be looking for someone to spar with and that's not me!:)

    So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

    Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy


  • #1944
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

    Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy
    They would certainly be more likely to vote for it. You can extrapolate from the referendum poll result, which was at about 90% in favour IIRC.
    A poll in July had total support at about 47%, so that's likely to be very few of the others. I agree it's not black and white but it is mostly about money and that joke about Catalans is true! Many of those in Catalonia resent the large contributions to equalisation, themselves, Madrid and the Balearics being the biggest funders of it. Apart from "issues" with the feckless south, they claim they don't get enough services funded out of central coffers fro what they contribute. I reckon they have a case in that. I think a deal around greater autonomy and retaining more funds would have more hope of success.


  • #1945
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    is_that_so wrote: »
    They would certainly be more likely to vote for it. You can extrapolate from the referendum poll result, which was at about 90% in favour IIRC.
    A poll in July had total support at about 47%, so that's likely to be very few of the others. I agree it's not black and white but it is mostly about money and that joke about Catalans is true! Many of those in Catalonia resent the large contributions to equalisation, themselves, Madrid and the Balearics being the biggest funders of it. Apart from "issues" with the feckless south, they claim they don't get enough services funded out of central coffers fro what they contribute. I reckon they have a case in that. I think a deal around greater autonomy and retaining more funds would have more hope of success.

    We'll never know as they are continually denied the right to self-determination. Maybe over 50% don't want independence, but I'd wager over 50% would at least like the choice, particularly after what has happened in the last couple of years.


  • #1946
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

    Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy

    They don;t want the choice, the vote - they want to declare independence and f*ck everyone else.

    People who dare want to stay part of spain are having dog**** shoved in their letterboxes ... these people are extremists.

    Just look at these guys
    https://youtu.be/MNqm_WK8O-g

    Tell me they are peaceful protestors...


  • #1947
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    They don;t want the choice, the vote - they want to declare independence and f*ck everyone else.

    People who dare want to stay part of spain are having dog**** shoved in their letterboxes ... these people are extremists.

    As I asked before, how do you know what people want?

    You seem to only selectively reply to me

    Who said they were all peaceful protesters? On the topic, want to see violence from the Spanish state?


  • #1948
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Where do you live anyway ?
    Ireland and you safely watching this from a one sided view ?


  • #1949
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Where do you live anyway ?
    Ireland and you safely watching this from a one sided view ?

    Why should I answer anything you ask, when you've yet to address anything I ask?

    Why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?


  • #1950
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Why should I answer anything you ask, when you've yet to address anything I ask?

    Why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?

    Cataluna is not a nation


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  • #1951
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Cataluna is not a nation

    Yet in the last statute, Spain recognises it's a nation. Look at the last mod note too.

    Also: "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

    How does it not fit the above definition, or indeed any definition of a nation? Are you even aware of what a nation is?

    I'll ask again, why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?


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