Gender equality in exam question

The Tetrarch · 03-12-2018 12:46pm

joe40 wrote: »

The question asks for the students opinion on whether "gender inequality is a real problem in sport".

Pay in sport is linked to performance, with extreme differences in pay between the good and the excellent.
The reason for the pay differences is people want to see the very best performers in a sport.
Men playing at the lowest professional levels would outperform the best women professionals.
The question could be "why do women sports professionals get paid as much as they are paid?"

Do women want real equality in sport?
Would Serena Williams campaign for open competition in tennis between men and women?
Women want equal pay in sport, although I guess more viewers would prefer to watch the best sport, spend weekends in pubs watching Premier league soccer.

1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters
Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters.
Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both.
Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager".
The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park, after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies.
He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1.
Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.
Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance".
He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".
Braasch said the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier, and that men put spin on the ball that the women can't handle.
The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.

At the lower levels, children and adults playing amateur sport for fun or exercise I doubt there is much inequality.
When it comes to county, province, international levels my guess is the old inequalities are more evident.
The business model takes over, and the target audience becomes a big factor in decisions.
The Irish women hockey and rugby teams are good.
They will not get the money or media coverage that the male teams get.

To change the situation women would need to subscribe to MUTV, go on international trips to New Zealand and Australia for rugby, fly to London to watch Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, buy camper vans and drive to the soccer World Cup.

PhoenixParker · 03-12-2018 12:47pm

Plopsu wrote: »

So, if the student had added, "I don't think it's an issue", before what they wrote that would be full marks then....?

Probably 2 rather than 1. The explanation portion is short and not well developed. "I don't think it's an issue" is a fairly clear statement of opinion, although the failure to clearly state what "it" is undermines it a bit.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 12:49pm

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

I didn't say that my opinion is superior to everyone else's; I said that students who presented educated opinions grounded in facts should have been given higher marks than students who were just blowing smoke.

I'm sure many students saw the $2 million vs $35 million as a prime example of gender inequality in sports, and proposed that the women should have been paid the same as the men. But paying $35 million to the winning women makes no sense when one considers that the Women's World Cup generated just $73 million in total revenue. There simply was no feasible way to pay them the same amount as the winners of a men's tournament that generated 85 times as much revenue.

It's still just an opinion and if someone comes up with equally well formulated argument for something else then they deserve the same points.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 12:54pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Pay in sport is linked to performance, with extreme differences in pay between the good and the excellent.
The reason for the pay differences is people want to see the very best performers in a sport.
Men playing at the lowest professional levels would outperform the best women professionals.
The question could be "why do women sports professionals get paid as much as they are paid?"

That's all fine but why is Premier League generating higher revenues and bigger audience than leagues with superior clubs? English clubs didn't do that well in CL lately and if top quality is the only marker la Liga should have higher audience.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 03-12-2018 1:03pm

meeeeh wrote: »

It's still just an opinion and if someone comes up with equally well formulated argument for something else then they deserve the same points.

Then show us an equally well-formulated argument for why the $2 million vs $35 million prize money can be explained by gender inequality rather than by simple economics.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 1:09pm

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

Then show us an equally well-formulated argument for why the $2 million vs $35 million prize money can be explained by gender inequality rather than by simple economics.

I'm not doing the test. Just because you or I can't think of better one it doesn't mean ours is only one viable.

joe40 · 03-12-2018 1:26pm

I'm not sure if this forum is discussing the question specifically or not.

For the exam a well reasoned argument saying there is gender inequality in sport should get full marks, equally a well reasoned argument saying there isn't gender inequality in sport should get full marks.

Personally there are sound economic arguments expressed here showing why male athletes earn more since earning power is directly related to popularity of the sport (high attendance and advertising revenue)

Payment is only one issue. Premiership footballers earn a lot more than professional rugby players purely due to the relative popularity of the two sports.

Gender ineqauality in terms of how sports are promoted, even at amateur level is a different issue, and one where changes could be made. Just looking at earning power is not the issue for me, that just economics and popularity

ProfessorPlum · 03-12-2018 1:27pm

The question was asking the students opionion on whether gender inequality was a real problem in sport. The student didn’t answer the question fully, or at all really imo, and so didn’t get full marks.

Regardless of a students opionion as to whether gender inequality is or is not a problem, they would have been able to score full marks by expanding and arguing their opinion. This student didn’t do that. I don’t see the issue.

(There doesn’t always have to be a third wave feminazi agenda to everything!)

lobbylad · 03-12-2018 1:30pm

Hmm, this is an exam question, and the validity of the answer itself is not the main issue.

People tend to forget in exams, that you start with zero - and the answers you provide are to give the examiner a reason to award you marks.

So a one line answer, irrespective of the question, doesn't give the examiner much scope to give you marks.

Generally, remember that for these "opinion based" questions (as opposed to, say, maths questions) they are interested to see that you:

(a) understood the question
(b) formulated an opinion in response
(c) were able to express that opinion in a clear and concise manner
(d) supported your opinion with evidence/facts

The actual "correctness" of the answer in an opinion based question is somewhat irrelevant, because you are asked for your opinion, which can obviously vary.

So a single line answer as per the OP, which admittedly is correct, doesn't show in enough detail that you formulated a proper opinion in response.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 03-12-2018 1:41pm

There's little doubt, though, that this curriculum is trying to shape people's opinions on social issues.

Another question from the same exam:

"Your class would like to organise a celebration in recognition of Irish Travellers as a distinct ethnic group within the Irish nation. Name the event you would organise and describe four steps that you would take to make it happen."

What if you're among the quarter of the population that agreed with a recent presidential candidate who suggested that Travellers' distinct ethnicity is nonsense, and not exactly something that merits celebrating?

The course seems designed to get students to agree with the prevailing sentiments on social issues that would be popular in RTE and among left-leaning politicians. There seems to be little allowance made for alternative ways to look at issues.

Ush1 · 03-12-2018 1:48pm

Womens football is like UHT milk.....there's no demand for it cos it's sh*te.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 1:54pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Womens football is like UHT milk.....there's no demand for it cos it's sh*te.

Explain why womans football is sh*te. (3 marks)

tritium · 03-12-2018 2:00pm

As an exam question it’s extremely badly phrased. Either the information given can be used, in which case opinion somewhat goes out the window since it’s a question of economics, or it’s a red herring, which makes the question somewhat unfair.

The answer may not have been the greatest (albeit 3 marks shouldn’t require a lot of writing), however in the context of the above either it’s correct in a situation where opinion by itself is meaningless, or it’s a wrong answer to a badly constructed question.

I’d say 2 marks - a mark drop for not developing the point more.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 03-12-2018 2:11pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

The question was asking the students opionion on whether gender inequality was a real problem in sport. The student didn’t answer the question fully, or at all really imo, and so didn’t get full marks.

Regardless of a students opionion as to whether gender inequality is or is not a problem, they would have been able to score full marks by expanding and arguing their opinion. This student didn’t do that. I don’t see the issue.

(There doesn’t always have to be a third wave feminazi agenda to everything!)

I don’t think this exam was looking for essays.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-12-2018 2:15pm

joe40 wrote: »

Explanation of point of view on gender inequality in sport 3M
Very good explanation 3m
Good explanation 2m
Fair explanation 1m

The above is from the mark scheme for that exam, on examinations.ie

A well reasoned argument will get the marks. They are not looking for a particular point of view.

Yes, exactly. They are not looking for one particular opinion. But whatever opinion the student puts forth needs to have logic and reasoning behind. I’m basing this on information people have supplied about the marking scheme and course in this thread.

A small number of posters in the thread seem to be alluding to the idea that the correct opinion wanted was “women are discriminated against because sexism” but I don’t think that’s the case. Just state why you think the pay is so different and give your opinion on that using reasoning.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:18pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Explain why womans football is sh*te. (3 marks)

Don't do it Ush1, she'll only give you one mark cause you phrased it wrong :pac:

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:20pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Don't do it Ush1, she'll only give you one mark cause you phrased it wrong :pac:

she?

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:22pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

A small number of posters in the thread seem to be alluding to the idea that the correct opinion wanted was “women are discriminated against because sexism” but I don’t think that’s the case. Just state why you think the pay is so different and give your opinion on that using reasoning.

Eh.... from earlier in the thread:

"The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted. I think he's trying to do what he is supposed to do and not what he believes. "

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:23pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she?

Ze?

Roger Hassenforder · 03-12-2018 2:26pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Explain why womans football is sh*te. (3 marks)

1. They cant decide whether to shoot or pass

2. You cant pull them off at half time if they're having a howler

3.

2/3 = 66%
I'll take that every time.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:26pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Ze?

try he.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

try he.

I'll be sure to attempt to try to remember that (and the appropriate pronouns for all other random people on boards).:D

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 03-12-2018 2:33pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

A small number of posters in the thread seem to be alluding to the idea that the correct opinion wanted was “women are discriminated against because sexism” but I don’t think that’s the case.

It may not officially be the case that one opinion is desired over another -- but consider how other questions on the paper clearly steer students toward politically correct stances on social issues such as Travellers, migrants, etc. Note too that the majority of Irish teachers, and thus the majority of people marking this paper, are women, who will be more predisposed to believing that gender inequality exists in sports.

It's very evident that the "safe" answers to this paper are ones that toe the left-wing party line. Basically, students who want an "A" should imagine what Michael D. Higgins would say and write it down whether they believe it or not. Those who dissent from the orthodoxy are more likely to be graded harshly.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:33pm

Plopsu wrote: »

I'll be sure to attempt to try to remember that (and the appropriate pronouns for all other random people on boards).:D

or just use dont use he or she. probably easier.

Church on Tuesday · 03-12-2018 2:43pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she?

Womxn surely.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:44pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

or just use dont use he or she. probably easier.

Thanks for the advice but I'll decide how much I want to type for myself. Anyway, what makes you think the 'she' I was referring to was you? Your quote but I could have been referring to anybody.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:45pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Thanks for the advice but I'll decide how much I want to type for myself. Anyway, what makes you think the 'she' I was referring to was you? Your quote but I could have been referring to anybody.

because you quoted my post. that is how language works.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:47pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because you quoted my post. that is how language works.

It works with capital letters too.
Like I said, your quote (because It's easier than typing it) but the reference could have been to anybody.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:48pm

Plopsu wrote: »

It works with capital letters too.
Like I said, your quote (because It's easier than typing it) but the reference could have been to anybody.

so who was the reference to?

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:51pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so who was the reference to?

I didn't say it wasn't to you. Just pointing out that people assume all sorts of stuff on the internet.
However, since it's so deeply unsettling to you that somebody on the internet who has never met you got your gender wrong, I will absolutely attempt to try to remember it for future reference.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-12-2018 2:51pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Eh.... from earlier in the thread:

"The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted. I think he's trying to do what he is supposed to do and not what he believes. "

The same teacher also only gave it 1 mark out of a possible 3.

Sure, the bit written was factually correct. But an opinion on it was also asked for. Opinions, well, there’s no one opinion that will be factually correct because it’s an opinion. But any opinion needs to be well-reasoned. An array of well-reasoned opinions likely got full marks.

Reading the answer, I don’t know what the students thinks about it. I don’t know if they think pay should just be based on revenue. I don’t know if they think it’s fair or unfair. I don’t know if they think other factors should be taken into consideration when deciding pay. I just don’t know because they didn’t put forth any opinion.

The answer is lacking because at the end of it, I want to ask the student “And what do you think about that?”. If the answer was complete, that question wouldn’t be hanging in the air.

The subject is Civics, not Economics.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 2:54pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Sure, the bit written was factually correct. But an opinion on it was also asked for. Opinions, well, there’s no one opinion that will be factually correct because it’s an opinion. But any opinion needs to be well-reasoned. An array of well-reasoned opinions likely got full marks.

Reading the answer, I don’t know what the students thinks about it. I don’t know if they think pay should just be based on revenue. I don’t know if they think it’s fair or unfair. I don’t know if they think other factors should be taken into consideration when deciding pay. I just don’t know because they didn’t put forth any opinion.

The answer is lacking because at the end of it, I want to ask the student “And what do you think about that?”. If the answer was complete, that question wouldn’t be hanging in the air.

And again:
"The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted"

This is the issue. It doesn't appear to be the quality of the answer that's the problem but the content.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-12-2018 2:57pm

Plopsu wrote: »

And again:
"The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted"

This is the issue. It doesn't appear to be the quality of the answer that's the problem but the content.

If you think that’s the issue, ain’t nothing going to change your mind.

daheff · 03-12-2018 2:58pm

what was the sample answer for the question?

What was the marking scheme for the question?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-12-2018 2:59pm

daheff wrote: »

what was the sample answer for the question?

What was the marking scheme for the question?

That would clear a lot up.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 3:03pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If you think that’s the issue, ain’t nothing going to change your mind.

A factually correct answer is not the answer the question wanted (and that's coming from the teacher marking) and you think that's not the issue? Daaaaammmmmmnnnnn.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 3:04pm

Plopsu wrote: »

And again:
"The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted"

That's according to a poster who couldn't even quote the question correctly. Someone posted actual question somewhere in the thread, marking guidelines were also posted. It's clear from both the answer is not adequate (although factually correct).

If that answer makes you happy you allow absolutely no scale to distinguish between mediocrity and those that actually have some reasoning skills.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 3:08pm

meeeeh wrote: »

That's according to a poster who couldn't even quote the question correctly. Someone posted actual question somewhere in the thread, marking guidelines were also posted. It's clear from both the answer is not adequate (although factually correct).

Yes the OP is all we have to go on. It's possible that the teacher doesn't even exist. Or even that he (or she (see OhNoNotGMail, see)) doesn't exist himself (or herself).
If we choose not to believe what the OP has posted, then we're literally discussing nothing.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 3:12pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Yes the OP is all we have to go on. It's possible that the teacher doesn't even exist. Or even that he (or she (see OhNoNotGMail, see)) doesn't exist himself (or herself).
If we choose not to believe what the OP has posted, then we're literally discussing nothing.

And that reply could be interpreted as 'factually correct but different type of reply was required'.

You seem to be happy with very little and if that little is expected from kids then how can you expect anything from them in third level.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 03-12-2018 3:17pm

daheff wrote: »

what was the sample answer for the question?

What was the marking scheme for the question?

The question and marking scheme for the Junior Cert CSPE exam 2018 are both online at examinations.ie. The relevant question is Section 2, question 1, part (e).

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 3:17pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And that reply could be interpreted as 'factually correct but different type of reply was required'.

You seem to be happy with very little and if that little is expected from kids then how can you expect anything from them in third level.

Or we could chose to believe that the teacher was using some sort of transposition code :rolleyes:
And if you seriously think CSPE will be in anyway significant to the majority or learning students will be doing at third level...... I'd be a lot more concerned with the standard of maths they're bringing with them (but that's a whole other thread).

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 3:27pm

Plopsu wrote: »

Or we could chose to believe that the teacher was using some sort of transposition code :rolleyes:
And if you seriously think CSPE will be in anyway significant to the majority or learning students will be doing at third level...... I'd be a lot more concerned with the standard of maths they're bringing with them (but that's a whole other thread).

Cspe won't be but how well they kids can reason, deduct, form their arguments will be. You are so deep in the whole gender nonsense that you're just judging answers by how much they offend or don't offend you.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 03-12-2018 3:39pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The same teacher also only gave it 1 mark out of a possible 3.

Sure, the bit written was factually correct. But an opinion on it was also asked for. Opinions, well, there’s no one opinion that will be factually correct because it’s an opinion. But any opinion needs to be well-reasoned. An array of well-reasoned opinions likely got full marks.

Reading the answer, I don’t know what the students thinks about it. I don’t know if they think pay should just be based on revenue. I don’t know if they think it’s fair or unfair. I don’t know if they think other factors should be taken into consideration when deciding pay. I just don’t know because they didn’t put forth any opinion.

The answer is lacking because at the end of it, I want to ask the student “And what do you think about that?”. If the answer was complete, that question wouldn’t be hanging in the air.

The subject is Civics, not Economics.

You guys are stretching the logic of this all over the shop. The teacher gave 1 mark because he thought that that was the expected marking ( one that will appear in the real exam). Thats what was reported here by the op, when asked. The teacher didn't say, wasn't reported as saying, that it wasn't long enough.

Why are long answers better anyway. And why are opinions supposed to be marked as opinions? Starting a sentence with "In my opinion...." isn't good style, necessarily.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 3:39pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Cspe won't be but how well they kids can reason, deduct, form their arguments will be. You are so deep in the whole gender nonsense that you're just judging answers by how much they offend or don't offend you.

Of course I am. It was a three point question. It was answered correctly. The teacher was wary of giving marks because it didn't jibe with the course content. Geddit? Right answer doesn't fit with course content. I would be equally concerned with that on any subject.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 03-12-2018 3:41pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Cspe won't be but how well they kids can reason, deduct, form their arguments will be. You are so deep in the whole gender nonsense that you're just judging answers by how much they offend or don't offend you.

The examination system is always about giving the exam markers what they want. I don't mean rote, but what is expected. A religious exam that asks you about what transubstantiation can't be answered with "Poppycock", although that may well be correct.

So the answer deserved to be 1, not because it was wrong or badly argued but not what was expected.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 03-12-2018 3:44pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You guys are stretching the logic of this all over the shop. The teacher gave 1 mark because he thought that that was the expected marking ( one that will appear in the real exam). Thats what was reported here by the op, when asked. The teacher didn't say, wasn't reported as saying, that it wasn't long enough.

Why are long answers better anyway. And why are opinions supposed to be marked as opinions? Starting a sentence with "In my opinion...." isn't good style, necessarily.

I agree with you on the "In my opinion..." phrasing. It comes across as very juvenile.

This questions counts for 3 marks out of 150, on a 90-minute exam. A student should therefore allocate around a minute and a half to answer this, so a lengthy response shouldn't be expected. Two or three sentences at most.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 3:44pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The examination system is always about giving the exam markers what they want. I don't mean rote, but what is expected. A religious exam that asks you about what transubstantiation can't be answered with "Poppycock", although that may well be correct.

So the answer deserved to be 1, not because it was wrong or badly argued but not what was expected.

That's correct but also very concerning.

meeeeh · 03-12-2018 4:01pm

Plopsu wrote: »

That's correct but also very concerning.

So he/she shouldn't even get a point then. It's not just rubbish it's also 'wrong'.

Plopsu · 03-12-2018 4:02pm

meeeeh wrote: »

So he shouldn't even get a point then. It's not just rubbish it's also 'wrong'.

If it is 'wrong' and what he wrote is right, then what they are being taught is wrong. See the issue?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 03-12-2018 4:05pm

meeeeh wrote: »

So he/she shouldn't even get a point then. It's not just rubbish it's also 'wrong'.

Its not rubbish and it is correct.

However the examiner has an ideological position and if he wants marks he has do that. Thats the way of the world.

Gender equality in exam question

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