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Chain Reaction price difference - Euro countries

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  • 06-02-2019 9:32pm
    #1
    Borderfox
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Im hovering over buying a set of rim brake Zondas from Chain Reaction but our vpn must be going through France and instead of €395 on the Irish site they are coming in at €359 in France, is this legal?
    Tagged:


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    #2
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,265 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    No , where delivery is free the only difference they can allow for is VAT.


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    #3
    TheBlaaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭TheBlaaMan


    They've been at it for a long time now, and VAT cannot explain the differences. Pick any item, change the location and track the price change, Example below. Ksyrium SL-T Disc wheels:

    Italy €456 Current VAT rate 22%
    Denmark €489 - 25%
    Ireland €462 - 23%
    UK €432.50 Sterling Equivalent - 20%

    While the £ -> € equivalent at this moment may well not reflect the FX rates at the time they set their prices, if you take the UK price as the 'base rate' the prices should be closer to
    Italy €439
    Denmark €450
    Ireland €443

    This is before shipping, standard post being free in each case.

    They may have an explanation. :confused:

    472405.jpg


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    #4
    Peter T
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Peter T


    Plenty of other online retailers at it too


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    #5
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,300 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I complained to them a year or two ago about this. They fobbed me off, citing delivery costs. I told them what they were doing is illegal, but they never responded to that. I don't buy from them any more

    (I had previously complained a year or so before that, and they did correct things that time, but then re-introduced the mismatch)

    There's at least one, possibly two, old threads on it


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    #6
    531
    Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭531


    I had a similar issue with another UK online bike store. I enquired about ordering with sterling but they wouldn't let me. I argued that it shouldn't matter to them what currency they receive and that as postage was free (when over a certain amount was spent) it shouldn't make a difference to them. They stated that they had different pricing structures for different countries.


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    #7
    Bambaata
    Registered Users Posts: 4,081 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    I always buy in sterling using revolut and works out a bit cheaper too


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    #8
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,300 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Bambaata wrote: »
    I always buy in sterling using revolut and works out a bit cheaper too
    Usually there's a 3% (ormore) premium if you let the retailer set the rate. The CC company charges a bit less

    I've pretty much always found paying UK suppliers in Sterling is cheaper than in Euros. Euros remain best for any retailer based in the Eurozone.


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    #9
    S_D
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭S_D


    I bought a Giro Aerohead from bike-discount.de. In Euro it was 197 at the time, I hit my VPN to GB and the sterling price was £112 - 130 odd euro!!!! How the hell do they do that? I didnt complain mind you, I bought it ... but still!


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    #10
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    S_D wrote: »
    I bought a Giro Aerohead from bike-discount.de. In Euro it was 197 at the time, I hit my VPN to GB and the sterling price was £112 - 130 odd euro!!!! How the hell do they do that? I didnt complain mind you, I bought it ... but still!

    Difference in VAT rate on helmets between here and U.K.?


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    #11
    Rua_ri
    Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Rua_ri


    S_D wrote: »
    I bought a Giro Aerohead from bike-discount.de. In Euro it was 197 at the time, I hit my VPN to GB and the sterling price was £112 - 130 odd euro!!!! How the hell do they do that? I didnt complain mind you, I bought it ... but still!

    Bike helmets have a 0% vat rate in the UK.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/protective-equipment-and-vat-notice-70123#pedal-cycle-helmets


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    #12
    rkdub
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭rkdub


    simple example.. "Continental Quality Road Inner tube"

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/continental-quality-road-inner-tube/rp-prod18908


    700c, 42mm valve, 25-32c.

    country UK, currency gbp: £3.99
    country Ireland, currency gbp: £4.49.


    shipping, is a separate cost.


    of course, it isn't about 50p.. but why not say it as it is? shipping to Ireland is more costly?
    Is this common?


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    #13
    Peter T
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Peter T


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109353999

    Been covered a few times. Most of it is down to different VAT rates


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    #14
    rkdub
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭rkdub


    thanks peter. should have spotted this thread.
    but to be fair, 50p on 3.99 isn't down to VAT. - VAT difference accounts for 9pence.
    currency exchange can also be ruled out- I'm comparing gbp from their site.

    got an unhelpful agent on their site:
    "Unfortunately due to VAT, product offers and amount sale, we cannot offer the same price on our products for every country."
    given they don't get shipping efficiencies sending to Ireland, I don't see what "amount of sale" has to do with it. similarly, its a tube, not an exclusive item, so I don't see what "product offers" (assuming it might mean manufacturer limitations) could be.

    like previous have said, probably just need to move on to another retailer.


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    #15
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,300 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Of course this may become legal post-Brexit!


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    #16
    JMcL
    Registered Users Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭JMcL


    Some may have seen my near miss with ProbikeKit on the bargain alerts thread yesterday. I pulled the trigger on a Cycleops H2 smart trainer - banner ad on their front page "Price promise £624" £599 after a voucher (about €680). Went through the order process and by some minor miracle AIB got suspicious about the transaction and blocked it. Because I'd entered an ROI address, they whacked the price up to €1079 with no warning :eek: Apparently their not very obvious region/currency selector was set to ship to GB. They tried the VAT argument, which I pointed out amounted to £15 tops, then they tried shipping so I made the point it doesn't cost £300 more to ship to the south than to the north. They've gone off to think about it - tossers


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    #17
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Whatever about legalities and what they say about free shipping, shipping is never "free"

    Presumably the actual cost of shipping is reflected in price difference along with vat. From this perspective you can sort of understand what crc are doing


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    #18
    sin_26
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭sin_26


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Whatever about legalities and what they say about free shipping, shipping is never "free"

    Presumably the actual cost of shipping is reflected in price difference along with vat. From this perspective you can sort of understand what crc are doing

    Yeah... I know what they doing. Shooting in their own feet.


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    #19
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,085 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Whatever about legalities and what they say about free shipping, shipping is never "free"

    Presumably the actual cost of shipping is reflected in price difference along with vat. From this perspective you can sort of understand what crc are doing

    There is no understanding what they or others are doing. It's selective /geographic pricing, and that is illegal within the EU. Only VAT, and if relevant, currency conversion margins should cause the price to change. In all cases, the place of sale is dictated by the shipping warehouse, so the dispatch to country price should be fixed.
    Retailers that include free shipping or free over a certain transaction value may not then use carriage as a reason to up the price. A simpler, and more transparent approach would be to unbundle the shipping, but they don't want to do this as it clears the muddied water on this.
    In short, it's price gouging / predatory pricing Illegal in the EU.


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    #20
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    TA simpler, and more transparent approach would be to unbundle the shipping, but they don't want to do this as it clears the muddied water on this.

    Hadn't thought about this. Not many fall for the free shipping I would think so I often wondered why they continue with it. I expect to find goods much cheaper with the likes of Mantel and Bike Discount even factoring in 9 euro postage.

    Of late I have been more inclined to use CRC for smaller orders or things I want quickly


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    #21
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,300 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Hadn't thought about this. Not many fall for the free shipping I would think so I often wondered why they continue with it.
    But this is the issue. They offer "free" shipping, but then argue their prices are different because of, among other things, shipping. They have a simple solution - drop the claim shipping is free as, while in the EU, the pre-VAT price cannot vary wherever they are shipping to (again within the EU)

    Oh, and I won't touch them while they continue with this pricing policy. I'd rather pay more to someone who plays by the rules


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I was looking at a bike earlier difference between UK and IE was about 30 euro I think it it was if both paid GBP

    GB in GBP €841(converted)
    IE in GBP €862(converted)
    IE in EU €870

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/vitus-zenium-carbon-disc-road-bike-tiagra-2019/rp-prod172936


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    #23
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,265 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I was looking at a bike earlier difference between UK and IE was about 30 euro I think it it was if both paid GBP

    GB in GBP €841(converted)
    IE in GBP €862(converted)
    IE in EU €870

    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/vitus-zenium-carbon-disc-road-bike-tiagra-2019/rp-prod172936

    7 euro difference before VAT
    841/1.2=700
    870/1.23=707


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    #24
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,004 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Sorry if I've been living under a rock but where does the illegality come in, they have to have the same prices across the Eurozone?


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    #25
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,300 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Sorry if I've been living under a rock but where does the illegality come in, they have to have the same prices across the Eurozone?
    You cannot price discriminately in different EU countries. Every country sets it's own VAT rates and that's the only difference allowed. It's basic EU law

    You can though adjust shipping costs to reflect differences there, but CRC "claim" to offer free shipping to both UK and Ireland, so have no basis for charging different prices except for the difference in VAT


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    #26
    Welshkev
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭Welshkev


    JMcL wrote: »
    Some may have seen my near miss with ProbikeKit on the bargain alerts thread yesterday. I pulled the trigger on a Cycleops H2 smart trainer - banner ad on their front page "Price promise £624" £599 after a voucher (about €680). Went through the order process and by some minor miracle AIB got suspicious about the transaction and blocked it. Because I'd entered an ROI address, they whacked the price up to €1079 with no warning :eek: Apparently their not very obvious region/currency selector was set to ship to GB. They tried the VAT argument, which I pointed out amounted to £15 tops, then they tried shipping so I made the point it doesn't cost £300 more to ship to the south than to the north. They've gone off to think about it - tossers

    Have a read of my chat I had with them on this exact thing earlier this year. Clearly nothing's changed (this is the actual transcript). I reported them but nothing came of it because of some nonsense reason:

    Info: You are now chatting with Ed, how can I help you today?
    Ed: Hello Kevin

    Kevin: Hi, Can you please tell me why the GBP price of the PBK BIKE TRAVEL CASE changes when I amend the country of delivery from the UK to Ireland? UK price is £219.99 but if I change the delivery to Ireland the price goes to £244.99

    Ed:
    The size of the item means it would cost more to send overseas so the price would change when the delivery destination changes

    Kevin: But it's free shipping?

    Ed:
    The tracked and standard service are both free over a certain amount but the cost of sending the item varies with the size and weight, since the case is quite heavy and large it would add to the cost of this to Ireland

    Kevin: Thanks. As I understand this item qualifies for the free delivery, but I don't understand how I need to pay a higher price if the actual cost of the shipping varies for you - either it's free shipping or it's not? Clearly if I'm paying more than the shipping is not free?

    Ed:
    The cost at checkout is for the service the parcel is sent with, standard or untracked. The delivery to carry the parcel regardless of the service is factored into the cost of the item.

    Kevin: So it's not really free delivery then?

    Ed:
    The tracked delivery service is free, the rest of the delivery cost of the item is factored into the item price.

    Kevin: I don't understand that. So what you're saying is I need to pay for delivery, but you will absorb the cost of the tracking element?

    Ed:
    That is correct, the delivery cost is factored into the price of the item as well as the tracked delivery service on orders over a certain value

    Kevin: Thanks. That's very misleading - right at the top of your website it says "Free Standard Delivery" so clearly it's not free if it's included in the price of the item (which then varies) and also if PBK are paying the cost of tracking, I don't understand why there should be any change is price. Surely you see the point here?

    Ed:
    That free standard delivery is for the standard delivery service, it is usually charged at £4.99 and is free on orders over £40 and the tracked delivery is usually £13.99 and is free on orders over £200.

    The cost of sending a large and heavy item overseas is quite a bit, for simplicity we factor this cost into the price of the item so you do not have a varied cost for delivery changing for every item selected

    Kevin: Ok, but my point being per your terms & conditions, this item is over £200 therefore should qualify for free tracked delivery. But when I change my country, the price goes up over £30 compared to another country, apparently because of shipping. Clearly that should not happen if delivery is free. Nowhere dos it state that there will be additional changes for large/bulky items - it just says free over £40 or £200. Per EU law it is illegal to be charged a higher price when buying products or services because of your nationality or country of residence when within the EU

    Kevin: I was just about to buy this item, but am having second thoughts now.

    Ed: Thank you for waiting. I'll be with you in just a moment.

    Kevin: No probs. I'm not trying to be awkward or cause you any problems here, but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from

    Ed:
    I will pass on your feedback regarding this however the price of the item would vary from country to country as the cost to provide it to that country would vary, the cost for the service this is sent with is a separate cost which is what is mentioned at the delivery method section at checkout

    Kevin: Please see the "Price Discrimination" section of this - https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm

    Kevin: And this is your own delivery costs page - https://www.probikekit.com.au/site-info/international-delivery.list?settingsSaved=Y&shippingcountry=IE&switchcurrency=GBP&affil=thgppc&countrySelected=Y

    Kevin: Between those 2 there is no way there should be any discrepancy in pricing

    Ed:
    From the first site you linked - 'When you buy goods online in the EU, prices may vary from country to country or across different versions of the same website, for example due to differences in delivery costs.'

    Kevin: That's why I sent on your second page - this states that delivery is free, therefore that's not a basis to change the price

    Ed:
    The delivery service has been provided free of charge, the price of the item itself still varies as it costs more to send this internationally

    Kevin: And that's the point - "you can't be charged a higher price when buying products or services in the EU just because of your nationality or country of residence" and you've just said that the price of the item varies

    Kevin: To put it another way - how am I getting 'free' delivery if it's costing me £30 more to have it delivered to Ireland vs. the UK?

    Ed:
    If you want to have this delivered to a UK address the price charged would be lower, if you get this sent internationally the price would rise.

    This is not discriminating based on your country of origin as you can place the order from Ireland and as long as it is delivered in the UK the price would be lower, it is a price change based on the cost of sending this item overseas.

    The tracked delivery service is free as this applies to any item added to the order over a certain amount, the cost to send the individual item is factored into the item price.

    Kevin: Thanks. I completely understand that, but how am I getting 'free' delivery if it's costing me £30 more to have it delivered to Ireland vs. the UK?

    Ed:
    That 'Free Delivery' is the cost of the delivery service or method, in this case the tracked service, as over a certain amount we can absorb this cost into the price of the item so we offer it free of charge.

    This is different from the base cost of sending an item overseas, which in the case of a bike box is quite large since the parcel itself would be large and bulky.

    This is reflected in the base cost of the item before a delivery service is selected as it would cost that much to send it overseas regardless of what delivery service is selected for the item.

    Kevin: So there's nothing you can do here then? I note the 10% offer code has recently been removed from this item, which I could have used to offset this additional shipping cost

    Ed:
    I am afraid not, the prices set on site are there for a reason and I do not have any discount codes I can offer against this.

    Ed:
    Is there anything else I can help you with today?

    Kevin: No, but I will be looking to report this - I feel this is completely misleading


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    #27
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    If on their website they stated that delivery is not free but is built into the cost of the item based on the shipping destination would they be in the clear from a legal perspective ?

    Do they allow shipping to a UK addresspal address and payment in GBP without discrimination ? Or do they block these basket changes based on IP address. If they did the latter then this is more serious IMO.


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    #28
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭cython


    Welshkev wrote: »
    Have a read of my chat I had with them on this exact thing earlier this year. Clearly nothing's changed (this is the actual transcript). I reported them but nothing came of it because of some nonsense reason:

    Info: You are now chatting with Ed, how can I help you today?
    Ed: Hello Kevin

    Kevin: Hi, Can you please tell me why the GBP price of the PBK BIKE TRAVEL CASE changes when I amend the country of delivery from the UK to Ireland? UK price is £219.99 but if I change the delivery to Ireland the price goes to £244.99

    Ed:
    The size of the item means it would cost more to send overseas so the price would change when the delivery destination changes

    Kevin: But it's free shipping?

    Ed:
    The tracked and standard service are both free over a certain amount but the cost of sending the item varies with the size and weight, since the case is quite heavy and large it would add to the cost of this to Ireland

    Kevin: Thanks. As I understand this item qualifies for the free delivery, but I don't understand how I need to pay a higher price if the actual cost of the shipping varies for you - either it's free shipping or it's not? Clearly if I'm paying more than the shipping is not free?

    Ed:
    The cost at checkout is for the service the parcel is sent with, standard or untracked. The delivery to carry the parcel regardless of the service is factored into the cost of the item.

    Kevin: So it's not really free delivery then?

    Ed:
    The tracked delivery service is free, the rest of the delivery cost of the item is factored into the item price.

    Kevin: I don't understand that. So what you're saying is I need to pay for delivery, but you will absorb the cost of the tracking element?

    Ed:
    That is correct, the delivery cost is factored into the price of the item as well as the tracked delivery service on orders over a certain value

    Kevin: Thanks. That's very misleading - right at the top of your website it says "Free Standard Delivery" so clearly it's not free if it's included in the price of the item (which then varies) and also if PBK are paying the cost of tracking, I don't understand why there should be any change is price. Surely you see the point here?

    Ed:
    That free standard delivery is for the standard delivery service, it is usually charged at £4.99 and is free on orders over £40 and the tracked delivery is usually £13.99 and is free on orders over £200.

    The cost of sending a large and heavy item overseas is quite a bit, for simplicity we factor this cost into the price of the item so you do not have a varied cost for delivery changing for every item selected

    Kevin: Ok, but my point being per your terms & conditions, this item is over £200 therefore should qualify for free tracked delivery. But when I change my country, the price goes up over £30 compared to another country, apparently because of shipping. Clearly that should not happen if delivery is free. Nowhere dos it state that there will be additional changes for large/bulky items - it just says free over £40 or £200. Per EU law it is illegal to be charged a higher price when buying products or services because of your nationality or country of residence when within the EU

    Kevin: I was just about to buy this item, but am having second thoughts now.

    Ed: Thank you for waiting. I'll be with you in just a moment.

    Kevin: No probs. I'm not trying to be awkward or cause you any problems here, but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from

    Ed:
    I will pass on your feedback regarding this however the price of the item would vary from country to country as the cost to provide it to that country would vary, the cost for the service this is sent with is a separate cost which is what is mentioned at the delivery method section at checkout

    Kevin: Please see the "Price Discrimination" section of this - https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm

    Kevin: And this is your own delivery costs page - https://www.probikekit.com.au/site-info/international-delivery.list?settingsSaved=Y&shippingcountry=IE&switchcurrency=GBP&affil=thgppc&countrySelected=Y

    Kevin: Between those 2 there is no way there should be any discrepancy in pricing

    Ed:
    From the first site you linked - 'When you buy goods online in the EU, prices may vary from country to country or across different versions of the same website, for example due to differences in delivery costs.'

    Kevin: That's why I sent on your second page - this states that delivery is free, therefore that's not a basis to change the price

    Ed:
    The delivery service has been provided free of charge, the price of the item itself still varies as it costs more to send this internationally

    Kevin: And that's the point - "you can't be charged a higher price when buying products or services in the EU just because of your nationality or country of residence" and you've just said that the price of the item varies

    Kevin: To put it another way - how am I getting 'free' delivery if it's costing me £30 more to have it delivered to Ireland vs. the UK?

    Ed:
    If you want to have this delivered to a UK address the price charged would be lower, if you get this sent internationally the price would rise.

    This is not discriminating based on your country of origin as you can place the order from Ireland and as long as it is delivered in the UK the price would be lower, it is a price change based on the cost of sending this item overseas.

    The tracked delivery service is free as this applies to any item added to the order over a certain amount, the cost to send the individual item is factored into the item price.

    Kevin: Thanks. I completely understand that, but how am I getting 'free' delivery if it's costing me £30 more to have it delivered to Ireland vs. the UK?

    Ed:
    That 'Free Delivery' is the cost of the delivery service or method, in this case the tracked service, as over a certain amount we can absorb this cost into the price of the item so we offer it free of charge.

    This is different from the base cost of sending an item overseas, which in the case of a bike box is quite large since the parcel itself would be large and bulky.

    This is reflected in the base cost of the item before a delivery service is selected as it would cost that much to send it overseas regardless of what delivery service is selected for the item.

    Kevin: So there's nothing you can do here then? I note the 10% offer code has recently been removed from this item, which I could have used to offset this additional shipping cost

    Ed:
    I am afraid not, the prices set on site are there for a reason and I do not have any discount codes I can offer against this.

    Ed:
    Is there anything else I can help you with today?

    Kevin: No, but I will be looking to report this - I feel this is completely misleading
    TBH to me the moet worrying element (though it shouldn't be surprising) is that the L0 peon on the receiving end of this seems (to me at least) to be well briefed on the spiel to try to cover it, so premeditated seems to be an understatement!


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    #29
    JMcL
    Registered Users Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭JMcL


    cython wrote: »
    TBH to me the moet worrying element (though it shouldn't be surprising) is that the L0 peon on the receiving end of this seems (to me at least) to be well briefed on the spiel to try to cover it, so premeditated seems to be an understatement!

    Yeah, that did occur to me reading it - I'd hazard a guess it's well thought out. Also read a bit like something out of Kafka at some level. The lad I was on the chatline to either didn't have access to the same script, or was suffering from having pulled the early shift (I ambushed him before 7am) - only response since has been a "we're looking into it" email so I ain't holding my breath.


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    #30
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    I had a very similar support chat with someone from CRC last year. I think i got the chat mailed to me after, but can't remember.


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