Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

pinkypinky · 24-11-2015 12:36pm

He wasn't the first child, parents married 1864 - but I agree, it's plausible he was born in another house...the annotation on the baptism will just have to stay a mystery.

shanew · 24-11-2015 1:12pm

wonder if the curly brackets indicate anything ?

they dont generally feature in the comments - was wondering if the comment might might not be for Thomas

pinkypinky · 24-11-2015 4:41pm

You mean could it reference the sponsor perhaps?

Hermy · 24-11-2015 4:59pm

Might he have been premature - Mammy went into labour early and the priest was called?

spurious · 24-11-2015 5:25pm

It looks to me to be in a different hand altogether than the one who filled in the details about the baptism.

shanew · 24-11-2015 6:05pm

I suspect the brackets are meant to isolate the entry - maybe it was just something that happened that day (since a time is mentioned), and someone thought it should be noted

p.s. following on from the apparent different writing mentioned by spurious , the initials on this notation appear to be P.M., and the Priest that carried out the baptism (P.P.?) has surname Ryan.

shanew · 24-11-2015 6:10pm

one more thing - I think the first word is important also (by my reading of the text) 'a child' - not 'the child'

pedroeibar1 · 24-11-2015 8:08pm

Shane has me persuaded - a child found at ...etc. ..at 9 o'C PM (rather than AM). No point in giving her (as in "Is it a boy or a child?") an entry of her own, nothing to fill in, but the priest wanted to record the event.

shanew · 24-11-2015 11:30pm

hadn't thought of the P.M. as part of the time, but the previous night would def. make sense..

pinkypinky · 24-11-2015 11:56pm

But the sponsor cannot be a foundling from the previous night - a godparent has to be a confirmed person (so at least a teenager).

pedroeibar1 · 25-11-2015 12:16am

I was not clear - the baptism is of a foundling, totally unrelated to Master McGrath. She happened to be born/abandoned the same day as the baptism of TJMcG. Because she was an "unknown" the priest had no personal info to give her a line and she became "marginalia" in the column for "exceptions". It just happened that she was found at the time of the McGs' baptism and entered next to them, she could just as easily have been entered above or below had she been found earlier/later..

KildareFan · 25-11-2015 4:00pm

Poor little mite - at least her memory lives on thanks to the Boardsies.

pinkypinky · 25-11-2015 5:23pm

Well, that is possible, but the same name, Ellen Coleman, appears as a witness for a marriage in the same extended family in the same year. A baby can't be a witness to a marriage.

KildareFan · 25-11-2015 5:38pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Well, that is possible, but the same name, Ellen Coleman, appears as a witness for a marriage in the same extended family in the same year. A baby can't be a witness to a marriage.

I don't think the nameless baby has anything to do with the Magrath baptism; the entry is clearly set off from the Magrath baptism by the brackets. Ellen Coleman is the sponsor for the Magrath baptism, not the name of the child.

pinkypinky · 25-11-2015 5:54pm

Right, I see the angle you're coming from now. I don't think there's enough to say one way or another, without going through the rest the book to look for other examples of it.

pedroeibar1 · 25-11-2015 6:32pm

Pinky,
The clue is in the heading of the column (Pedro makes mental note to look more carefully at headings in future.)
It states ‘Circumstantiae ex Rit. Rom. Apponendae e.g. si fuerit adultus, recens conversus, sub conditione vel privatim, baptizatus, expositus &c’
I did not look carefully enough at it in my post 199.
Translation of the heading is ‘Circumstances to be added in accordance with the Roman Rite, e.g. if they were adult, recently converted, baptized conditionally or privately, a foundling, &c.'

'Expositus' is the Latin word for a foundling, same root as ‘exposed’

pinkypinky · 25-11-2015 8:30pm

That is very useful to know, Pedro.

I have seen other examples of foundlings though, where they were listed in the normal column, having been named by the priest, and the extra comments column said "foundling, found in X place on such and such a date". Of course I typically cannot find any of them now.

KildareFan · 26-11-2015 12:07am

And now for something different - if you want to enjoy a glimpse of life in the 1700s in Mullingar parish have a look at the Marriage register for 1747 onwards. All human life is there, including clandestine marriages, vagrants, cohabiting couples - the Rev Fitzgerald makes comments on the couples: some examples:
30 April 1764 Married Edmund Kenny to Bridget Durick both of the parish of Mullingar. The publication of the banns was dispensed by the Vic Genl for strong motives. They were poor and could not pay […] They were joined in the presence of Bridget Kenny, Winifred Horgan and the Widow Barry http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/47/mode/1up

Confirm marriage of George Tailour & Bridit McGarry both of ye parish of Mullingar they were married by a couple of beggars in joint bid: p 15 http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/48/mode/1up

November 1764
Married William Conway of Mullingar to Jane Johnson who bore two children for him some years ago. The banns were not published. They were joined in presence of Ellin Allan & Ellin Kinagy http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/48/mode/1up

16 May 1765
Married Arthur Cunningham to Elizabeth Fannin both of Moylisker parish. They had been long contracted and suspected of evil conversation with each other therefore joined unknown to their parents without publication of banns in presence of Owen Hester, Elizabeth Slevin and Catherine Fannin. http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/52/mode/1up

10 Jun 1765
Married John Kelly to Catharine Flanagan both of Mullingar parish. She bore a child for him and he with difficulty was induced to marry her wherefore I dispensed in the banns without a mulet they being poor. They were joined in the presence of James Doonican & Murtagh Sword. http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/52/mode/1up

April 1769 http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/64/mode/1up
Married Law. White to Mary Carlton both travelling dealers who swore they had no place of residence. Thady Mulchesan who was a witness deposed he knew them and said they were vagabonds who had no certain abode as may appear by his and their affidavit in my possession. James Delamar was also witness to the marriage. They were joined.

20 Jan 1770 http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/67/mode/1up
Married George Walker of Fortallagh? With his pastor’s certificate to Bridget Clarke of this parish. They lived together for some time before they were joined presence of Mary Bourke, Willm Daly & Brid Daly.

26 Jan 1770 http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635182#page/68/mode/1up
Married Loughlin Ham to Margt Bane both of Mullingar. They lived a long time together. They are very poor and paid no dues. The banns not published. They were joined in presence of martin nowlan & Magdalen Duffy?

pedroeibar1 · 26-11-2015 10:46am

That’s a wonderful find KF, a nice piece of local history and showing the humanity of the priest and his disregard for the law in regularly dispensing with the banns.
The emphasis on ‘Banns’ is very ‘on topic’ as a decade earlier the Marriage Act of 1753 considerably tightened the legislation on marriage. From that date in order for a marriage to be valid it was necessary to publish banns in advance or have a licence and have the ceremony performed in a church. For those who had not attained 21 years, parental consent was necessary if the couple married by licence; marriages by banns were valid provided the parent of the minor did not actually forbid the banns.

If parental consent was not forthcoming, some couples evaded the Act by travelling to Scotland, where that law did not apply. There it was possible for boys to marry at 14 and girls at 12 with or without parental consent. As a result, various Scottish “Border Villages” became known as places to marry; in the 1770s the construction of a toll road that passed through the village of Graitney led to easy access and Graitney/Gretna Green becoming synonymous with elopements.

On the Kelly marriage above the word ‘mulet’ is recte mulct, meaning a fine/penalty/fee, as in “ When I wanted a copy baptism certificate I was mulct for 30 shillings”.

Alan259 · 28-11-2015 1:11am

Hi,

Can anybody make out the name of the second sponsor for the first baptism (Bridget Grealish of Patrick Grealish and Catherine Lally) on page 29 of Claregalway parish in Co. Galway? Thanks.

Sorry for not being able to post an image.

shanew · 28-11-2015 9:31am

link to the baptism mentioned above - 3rd March 1861, top of the left page. Sponsors appear to be Patrick Lally and Billy Coen

Alan259 · 28-11-2015 3:51pm

shanew wrote: »

Sponsors appear to be Patrick Lally and Billy Coen

Thanks shanew,

I was expecting it to be a woman's name but Billy looks right.

There is another entry in the parish of Claregalway that I'm having trouble with making out the second sponsor's name. On p. 14, the entry dated 19th of November, 1854; Judy Walsh of Henry Walsh and Mary Long. Sponsors are Patrick Long and ?. I'm thinking her first name could be Mary or Winny. Thanks. And the entry is the third entry on the right page.

Sorry again for not being able to post an image.

pinkypinky · 28-11-2015 6:01pm

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634155#page/14/mode/1up

Mary Harty?

Alan259 · 28-11-2015 7:55pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Mary Harty?

Thanks pinkypinky.

montgo · 03-12-2015 5:34pm

Hi,
Can you decipher the word after John Blackburn of an illeg. bapt of Jn (John) on 27 October, 1811. It is on left hand side towards end of page here

It looks like a J or a T. I was thinking of Junr, any other possibilities?

pinkypinky · 03-12-2015 5:54pm

Looks more like a T comparing other words on the page. See Thos (Thomas) on the line above.

montgo · 03-12-2015 6:07pm

Thanks pinky. There is a Joseph just a few lines below where the J looks similar to his Ts. If a T, any ideas for the word?

tabbey · 03-12-2015 8:31pm

It appears to be an abbreviation for his occupation. Most of the others are farmer or labourer, so it is possibly farm'r, or something like that.

montgo · 03-12-2015 9:39pm

Yes, I thought that it was Farmer at first but other occupations were written with small letter not capitals.

KildareFan · 03-12-2015 9:47pm

Alan259 wrote: »

Thanks shanew,

I was expecting it to be a woman's name but Billy looks right.

Looks like Betty to me.

Alan259 · 03-12-2015 11:15pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Looks like Betty to me.

Thanks for the second opinion KildareFan, it does look like a Betty to me now.

montgo · 04-12-2015 8:13am

Another query here (right side, 2nd from top) on 16 Oct 1810 if someone could look at for me.

"Bap'd Wil'm son of Mr. Thos". Is it "Mr. Thomas" or something else?

pinkypinky · 04-12-2015 10:36am

It doesn't look like Thos to me. There's a Thos a few lines down. The convention in this parish seems to be to name the father in full (at least an abbreviated version). Could it be Mr Philip? Blackburn?

montgo · 04-12-2015 10:51am

Thanks Pinky. I didn't think that there any Philips in that family at that time, but possible. I was comparing it to the "Thos" a few lines below it and thought that the Th were similar:)

tabbey · 04-12-2015 10:29pm

Looks more like Patk (Patrick) to me. Philip was rarely abbreviated.

Alan259 · 05-12-2015 9:46pm

Hi again,

I'm having trouble making out the first name in a baptism in the parish of Moycullen, Co. Galway. The entry is in the second collection, p.7, and is the third entry from the bottom on the left page

1838, Dec. 30th, Clooniff, ? of Tho. and Mary Thornton Sp. Pat Thornton and Mary Flaherty

shanew · 05-12-2015 11:35pm

not sure it's correct but it looks like is 'Bieily' - the ending looks like a fairly clear ..ly or maybe a ..ty with a missing cross-bar, and the first letter looks a little like a squashed version of a 'B' similar to the Biddy or Bridget a few lines above.

KildareFan · 06-12-2015 12:42pm

Alan259 wrote: »

Hi again,

I'm having trouble making out the first name in a baptism in the parish of Moycullen, Co. Galway. The entry is in the second collection, p.7, and is the third entry from the bottom on the left page

1838, Dec. 30th, Clooniff, ? of Tho. and Mary Thornton Sp. Pat Thornton and Mary Flaherty

Hi Alan - it makes it easier to find if you post the url for the page.

Kildarefan: Alan doesn't have link posting abilities yet: you have to have 50 posts.

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634194#page/7/mode/1up

Alan259 · 06-12-2015 1:19pm

shanew wrote: »

not sure it's correct but it looks like is 'Bieily' - the ending looks like a fairly clear ..ly or maybe a ..ty with a missing cross-bar, and the first letter looks a little like a squashed version of a 'B' similar to the Biddy or Bridget a few lines above.

Thanks shanew, I thought the same thing but dismissed it as it made no sense to me. This child actually had a niece named Celia so it could also be a corrupted form of Celia or Cecilia. Thanks again.

Alan259 · 06-12-2015 1:22pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Hi Alan - it makes it easier to find if you post the url for the page.

Hi KildareFan,

I can't post a URL or image in my posts as I am still a relatively new member to Boards. That's why I only describe where you can find the entry that I need help with. Thanks.

shanew · 06-12-2015 2:14pm

link to that Moycullen record for reference

P. Breathnach · 06-12-2015 3:46pm

It looks to me like Cecily.

Jellybaby1 · 06-12-2015 3:56pm

I'd go with Cecily as well.

Alan259 · 06-12-2015 4:48pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It looks to me like Cecily.

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I'd go with Cecily as well.

Thanks for the help.

I'm going with Cecily.

pinkypinky · 06-12-2015 11:11pm

Could be Cicely.

ETA: weird, boards was only showing me one post after Alan's - some gremlins around. After I posted my line above, it refreshed and there was a whole lot more comments, which I'm glad to see concur with me!

Any new people - feel free to pm me and ask me to insert a link if you're not at the level of posting links yet.

montgo · 08-12-2015 12:42pm

Just need to confirm that it was Patrick, son of John Cuddihy who was baptised 17 March 1831 here (left side of page) and not Catherine as transcribed by Roots? Many thanks.

P. Breathnach · 08-12-2015 1:33pm

montgo wrote: »

Just need to confirm that it was Patrick, son of John Cuddihy who was baptised 17 March 1831 here (left side of page) and not Catherine as transcribed by Roots? Many thanks.

Agreed. There are other instances of Patricius on the page that are similar in style, and I see a couple of Catherinas that are distinctively different.

montgo · 08-12-2015 2:01pm

Cheers. Thank you.

Alan259 · 09-12-2015 6:30pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Could be Cicely.

ETA: weird, boards was only showing me one post after Alan's - some gremlins around. After I posted my line above, it refreshed and there was a whole lot more comments, which I'm glad to see concur with me!

Any new people - feel free to pm me and ask me to insert a link if you're not at the level of posting links yet.

Thanks again pinkypinky.

shanew · 16-12-2015 7:47pm

can anyone make out anything in the address for the second Witness Alice Killeen on this marriage ?
I think the first letter is a K....

The marriage took place in 18 Jan 1875 in the Pro-Cathedral St. Mary's Marlborough St., Dublin City - Transcript and Image

I know the bride's family lived at Ballymaghroe townland - the one in Moyne civil parish near Hackettown.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page