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Deer population control Pheonix park

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    #32
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    If the deer were neutered/contraceptives the herd would be weak within a few years from age/illness. Culling with a sniper is by far the best way to manage the numbers. About twenty years ago they rounded up all of the deer and corralled them in the Magazine Fort for health checks and culling. There was carnage. Some deer jumped the wall and were killed or badly injured while others injured themselves charging into nets. The real threat to the deer is the people who refuse to obey the signs and insist on feeding them. I have seen very young children feeding mature stags. One day a stag will suddenly raise its head, injuring or even killing the child in the process and the OPW will be inundated with calls to remove the deer altogether.


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    #33
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

    Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.


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    #34
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    Varta wrote: »
    If the deer were neutered/contraceptives the herd would be weak within a few years from age/illness. Culling with a sniper is by far the best way to manage the numbers. About twenty years ago they rounded up all of the deer and corralled them in the Magazine Fort for health checks and culling. There was carnage. Some deer jumped the wall and were killed or badly injured while others injured themselves charging into nets. The real threat to the deer is the people who refuse to obey the signs and insist on feeding them. I have seen very young children feeding mature stags. One day a stag will suddenly raise its head, injuring or even killing the child in the process and the OPW will be inundated with calls to remove the deer altogether.

    Saw this over the weekend. Family with very young kids trying to hand feed them carrots even though there are numerous signs clearly indicating not to :confused:
    We were looking at deer and were close enough but not to the extent they were getting nervous of us and we could see the deer pretty well munching away on the grass. The family with little kids wanted to try hand feed them even though there was a stag with a serious set of antlers on him:confused: they got more and more nervous the closer they got, I'm sure they would run away but I wouldn't take my chances with a stag around


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    #35
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

    Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.

    The deer I saw over the weekend didn't seem happy about the people approaching them but the family kept trying even though they looked really nervous of them. Is that why all the chicken wire cages are around the trees?

    Yeah I suppose people probably think they are timid, which they are, but at the same time I say they would be strong enough if felt cornered or threatened especially with fawn


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    #36
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    They can be timid, or at certain times of the year they can be more aggressive, I know of farmer who got charged by a large stag, he was trapped by a fence and managed to get the stags antlers to the ground, and had to sit holding the stag down till someone heard the roaring and rescued him with a tractor...

    I can imagine some numpty getting a stag interested in food and then trying to put their kid on the stags back... For a laugh like, Shure aren't they reindeer....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #37
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    Markcheese wrote: »
    They can be timid, or at certain times of the year they can be more aggressive, I know of farmer who got charged by a large stag, he was trapped by a fence and managed to get the stags antlers to the ground, and had to sit holding the stag down till someone heard the roaring and rescued him with a tractor...

    I can imagine some numpty getting a stag interested in food and then trying to put their kid on the stags back... For a laugh like, Shure aren't they reindeer....

    Are the females aggressive when they have fawn? I saw a video before of a deer lifting up and kicking down on someone and wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of one :D

    Yeah, I can actually imagine someone doing something like that :D


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    #38
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Why can’t the males be castrated?


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    #39
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Why can’t the males be castrated?

    They probably can be... But for what?
    And you'd probably have to castrate almost all, and then its a dying herd...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #40
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Just close the park gates in winter, and release the wolves..(their enclosure in the zoo backs on to the park), could be tricky getting them back though..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #41
    rn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭rn


    Corralling non farm animals to administer en masse treatment is really difficult. They are not used to pens and being handled by people and deer are way more agile than normal farm animal.

    Giving them birth control would limit natural selection and survival of fittest that a large herd requires to overcome diseases and other natural disasters.

    Shooting and hunting are popular enough and the participants might as well be used to do the state and the herd a service.


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    #42
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Markcheese wrote: »
    They probably can be... But for what?
    And you'd probably have to castrate almost all, and then its a dying herd...

    To stop them breeding


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    #43
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Gael23 wrote: »
    To stop them breeding

    And that will only limit inbreeding not overpopulation with a herd full of castrated males...

    Shooting simply mimics what happens in the wild where numbers are predated.


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    #44
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

    Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.
    Keep away from them. The ones in phoenix have enough food around them.

    The amount of times during stag season I see people feeding deer with no awareness of the potential of a stag attacking staggering.


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    #45
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Sheepdish1 wrote: »
    Hi, just wondering why deer are culled in the Pheonix Park as opposed to neutered?

    I know they are beautiful animals but I’m not looking to start a debate on whether it is right or wrong.

    I’m sure other options were researched and it was decided that this was the best option. They are in a urban area so this would have implacations for herd size as they don’t have as much space as they would have somewhere rural. I wonder would there be health implications for the herd with too many males living in such a restricted area for example?

    Also because the space is shared with humans again I understand that the size needs to be controlled for safety.


    Maybe deer don’t do well under anesthetisia compared to other animals? Or would it have really bad affects on the health of the male as they are a wild animal?

    Thank you

    When you say "neutered" what do you mean?

    Do you think every male deer should be shot, with a tranquilizer, then castrated?

    Is this really a less traumatic experience than a deer being culled?


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    #46
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Chiparus wrote: »
    When you say "neutered" what do you mean?

    Do you think every male deer should be shot, with a tranquilizer, then castrated?

    Is this really a less traumatic experience than a deer being culled?

    One results in death and another in no bollix so I suppose no bollix is indeed worse:D


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    #47
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    One results in death and another in no bollix so I suppose no bollix is indeed worse:D

    Seriously though, it probably is. Take away the stag's masculinity and it would become a sorry looking animal with no purpose in life.


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    #48
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    how is this thread still open?
    Discussion of vermin/population control other than neutering of pet animals, regardless of species, is not permitted in this forum. More suitable forums might include Farming and Forestry/Smallholdings.


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    #49
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Varta wrote: »
    Seriously though, it probably is. Take away the stag's masculinity and it would become a sorry looking animal with no purpose in life.

    Do you think the stags would prefer to be all castrated or a few deer killed humanely ?


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    #50
    Cherry Blossom
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 6,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    ganmo wrote: »
    how is this thread still open?

    I made the decision to leave the thread open. As the deer cull is for the benefit of the herd, I felt there was no harm in discussing it here. We are monitoring the thread and if we feel it has outlived its purpose we will revisit the decision.


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    #51
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Do you think the stags would prefer to be all castrated or a few deer killed humanely ?

    what makes more of an impact on the number of the next generation?
    the number of fertile males or the number of females?

    castrate 20 stags and leave 5 entire you'll have the same number of fawns

    kill 5 does and leave 20 alive, you'll have 5 less fawns.



    The only reason these deer are special is because they're in the park, if they were 5 miles north they'd be open to be shot by anyone with a licence from the NPWS.


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    #52
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    If you neuter a stag, it is a pet... Or a decoration...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #53
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    How many deer will be slaughtered as part of this operation?


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    #54
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    Chiparus wrote: »
    When you say "neutered" what do you mean?

    Do you think every male deer should be shot, with a tranquilizer, then castrated?

    Is this really a less traumatic experience than a deer being culled?

    I don't have the knowledge to answer whether they should or shouldn't be, that is why I asked the question in the first place....


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    #55
    Sheepdish1
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    rn wrote: »
    Corralling non farm animals to administer en masse treatment is really difficult. They are not used to pens and being handled by people and deer are way more agile than normal farm animal.

    Giving them birth control would limit natural selection and survival of fittest that a large herd requires to overcome diseases and other natural disasters.

    Shooting and hunting are popular enough and the participants might as well be used to do the state and the herd a service.

    That seems quite plausible. It would be quite dangerous for the deer and the humans if they were administered treatment as they are wild animals. They would probably hurt themselves with the stress of being caught.

    They must need to be kept wild as if they were so tame that they were approaching humans it would mean they would probably start wandering around the park which wouldn't be good particularly with stags and fawn

    I do love deer and all animals btw. I am genuinely curious why they need to be culled.


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    #56
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Gael23 wrote: »
    How many deer will be slaughtered as part of this operation?

    They try and maintain the population at a certain level so if lots of fawn's are born they'd cull more, at nearly a 1 to 1 ratio I'd assume.


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    #57
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Sheepdish1 wrote: »
    That seems quite plausible. It would be quite dangerous for the deer and the humans if they were administered treatment as they are wild animals. They would probably hurt themselves with the stress of being caught.

    They must need to be kept wild as if they were so tame that they were approaching humans it would mean they would probably start wandering around the park which wouldn't be good particularly with stags and fawn

    I do love deer and all animals btw. I am genuinely curious why they need to be culled.

    It's done for very good reasons. The numbers need to be limited to match the available space and sick/injured animals have to be removed. I have witnessed the deer being corralled (disaster) and I have watched the sniper cull (very humane).


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    #58
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Folks,
    This thread has been moved to Nature and Birdwatching, as it seems a more appropriate spot for it.
    Please be aware that a new charter now applies, please have a read of it before you post, if you're not already familiar with it.
    Thanks,
    DBB


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    #59
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    Keep away from them. The ones in phoenix have enough food around them.

    The amount of times during stag season I see people feeding deer with no awareness of the potential of a stag attacking staggering.

    I'm unsure if you are directing that at me, or supporting what I was saying. Because that's just rephrasing what I said.
    Sheepdish1 wrote: »
    The deer I saw over the weekend didn't seem happy about the people approaching them but the family kept trying even though they looked really nervous of them. Is that why all the chicken wire cages are around the trees?

    Yeah I suppose people probably think they are timid, which they are, but at the same time I say they would be strong enough if felt cornered or threatened especially with fawn

    I was over on Tuesday and they were approached by and approaching people. They aren't unsettled in the slightest, once they expect to get something.


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    #60
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I don't see any problem with the current policy. The herd is living in ideal conditions, and their welfare is monitored. The meat from culled animals is free range, organic and is game - as opposed to fatty factory farmed meat.
    That's a premium product, ethically produced.
    People calling for the deer to be castrated, then going off to buy their chicken nuggets, it seems a bit strange to me.


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    #61
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,239 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Culling results in a healthy herd. Neutering would result in a gradually aging and increasingly sickly one.

    It’s not about keeping the numbers down. It’s about keeping sustainable numbers of the healthiest specimens.

    Also. The hand-feeding them carrots thing. Stop that. It does them no good, and you’re not ‘communing with nature’. Or whatever it is you think you’re at.


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