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Wireless home alarm in 2018: cost and recommendations?

  • 02-01-2018 3:30pm
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭


    As my house is not wired for an alarm already, I'm looking at getting a wireless system but I've a few questions.

    1) What sort of cost is involved in putting a wireless alarm system in a standard house? Is it priced per window/door? In percentage terms, how much more should I expect to pay for wireless over wired? (I came across a 2002 thread on Boards but I assume the prices would not be relevant to today)

    2) Is wireless better/more reliable? If so, why; if not, why not?

    3) Are all wireless systems monitored? If so, how can I reduce my monthly monitoring costs (other than avoid Phonewatch monitoring as they're overpriced). I'd much prefer just a once-off payment for this alarm rather than regular "monitoring" payments on top of it.

    4) I note there are some companies with ridiculous prices, but I don't know enough about the industry to know who the reliable companies offering good security at good prices. Is there any industry rating standard that could help me find that out? What companies are doing good systems at affordable prices?


    Any other advice on getting a new alarm system would be appreciated. Thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Hi, This has been done to death at this stage but I'll answer best I can below.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As my house is not wired for an alarm already, I'm looking at getting a wireless system but I've a few questions.

    1) What sort of cost is involved in putting a wireless alarm system in a standard house? Is it priced per window/door? In percentage terms, how much more should I expect to pay for wireless over wired? (I came across a 2002 thread on Boards but I assume the prices would not be relevant to today)

    Some companies are installing a motion detector based system. This is an inferior type of system to a system that protects the perimeter of the premises. A motion detector based system only activates once the intruder has already gain entry where as a perimeter based system will activate when the intruder is trying to gain entry. Insist on window and door sensors on all accessible entry points and at least one motion detector in a common area.

    A perimeter system will more expensive than a motion detector system but far better.

    2) Is wireless better/more reliable? If so, why; if not, why not?

    Not much difference in relabilty any more. The days of pulling a house a part to wire for alarm are gone. If you were renovating I would recommend pre-wiring your house as wired components are smaller than wireless and cheaper.

    3) Are all wireless systems monitored? If so, how can I reduce my monthly monitoring costs (other than avoid Phonewatch monitoring as they're overpriced). I'd much prefer just a once-off payment for this alarm rather than regular "monitoring" payments on top of it.

    You can have a stand - alone system with bells only, a self monitored system that will text, ring or alert your app. A professionally monitored system would be better and has various costs depending on the installer.

    4) I note there are some companies with ridiculous prices, but I don't know enough about the industry to know who the reliable companies offering good security at good prices. Is there any industry rating standard that could help me find that out? What companies are doing good systems at affordable prices?

    Good quality wireless devices are expensive so the cost will greatly depend and vary from house to house. We have tried most systems out there and now install HKC and Vanderbilt as we found others very problematic. Vanderbilt don't have wireless shock sensors which are vital to a security system but HKC tick all the boxes.

    All installers must be PSA licensed and you can get a list of installers in your area here
    https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/webContract?OpenForm
    . I would recommend you get a few quotes and compare like for like

    Any other advice on getting a new alarm system would be appreciated. Thanks.


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    Some companies are installing a motion detector based system. This is an inferior type of system to a system that protects the perimeter of the premises. A motion detector based system only activates once the intruder has already gain entry where as a perimeter based system will activate when the intruder is trying to gain entry. Insist on window and door sensors on all accessible entry points and at least one motion detector in a common area.

    A perimeter system will more expensive than a motion detector system but far better.

    Thanks so much for that. Very helpful. Somebody else has told me similarly about the motion alarms being of limited use as they only go off when you're in the house. Could that perimeter alarm be also known as a "Wireless shock sensor with magnetic contact"? My one question would be if the house is in an estate with people travelling very close to your perimeter (e.g. on paths) or even straying over your grass, you'd presumably move your perimeter as far as the alarm is concerned back nearer the house? It would be a pain to have it going off with every innocent transgression onto your property.

    How does the the Hkc Quantum control panel with an integrated internal siren and backup battery with 4 year life sound in terms of effectiveness and reliability?


  • #4
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thanks so much for that. Very helpful. Somebody else has told me similarly about the motion alarms being of limited use as they only go off when you're in the house. Could that perimeter alarm be also known as a "Wireless shock sensor with magnetic contact"? My one question would be if the house is in an estate with people travelling very close to your perimeter (e.g. on paths) or even straying over your grass, you'd presumably move your perimeter as far as the alarm is concerned back nearer the house? It would be a pain to have it going off with every innocent transgression onto your property.

    How does the the Hkc Quantum control panel with an integrated internal siren and backup battery with 4 year life sound in terms of effectiveness and reliability?

    The shocks sensors measure vibtation and the contacts detect the window or door opening. These are installed on the inside of your windows and doors. The perimeter is the at the windows and doors so the alarm wont activat when someone walks into your garden but only when they try to force their way in through a window/door.

    The Quantum is probably the best panel with integrated keypad/bell in Ireland but that type of panel is vulnerable to attack as it can easily be destroyed as everything important is in the one box. Try push for the HKC 1070 panel which has a separate keypad which means the main control panel can be located in a secure location.


  • #5
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    Also OP, the other advantage of getting your perimeter done as opposed to beams is that, at night you could switch on your system and move around the inside of the house.
    This is impossible with beams only.


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Still researching and according to this company,
    Our biggest selling package of 3 x motion detectors is now only €650. When placed strategically three devices can protect the majority of homes. We couple this with our high speed GSM dialer with NO delays of any kind to ensure this system will perform better than all other systems. Almost 99% of intruders enter through the hall door and therefore perimeter devices are a waste.

    Confused now. An alarm guy was out this morning to give me an estimate and he, also, said perimeter alarms are better than motion ones.


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  • #7
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    I have no vested interest in whatever company or system you choose.

    But I will say this, I have tried Visonic equipment in the past and found it very troublesome, I stopped using it.

    I know of others who will not use it due to political reasons.

    Oh and if you do get that company that proclaimed that perimeter protection is a waste and that 99% of break in's are through a door.
    Get that in writing, on their headed paper, get them to sign it and get a third party to witness it.
    Then give it to your solicitor for safe keeping, it could be worth a fortune in the future.

    Also please disregard what they said about HKC's wireless devices battery life only lasting 2 years.
    That is bull as well


  • #8
    altor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭altor


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Still researching and according to this company,

    Confused now. An alarm guy was out this morning to give me an estimate and he, also, said perimeter alarms are better than motion ones.

    Im confused also with that. He is stating perimeter protection is of no use so a PIR is better.
    I like other installers and end users would rather know if an intruder is trying to gain access as opposed to being in the premises.

    www.altor.ie



  • #9
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Still researching and according to this company,

    Confused now. An alarm guy was out this morning to give me an estimate and he, also, said perimeter alarms are better than motion ones.

    He's trying to sell you what he wants to install not what your property needs.
    I bet you got the line shock sensors & contacts cause false alarms as well...:)
    Get 3 companies out to do a proper site survey & give you a written system design proposal.


  • #10
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    My experience with Wireless alarms have been compromised by these messages and probable, some movements outside the house.
    Recommend cables around the house,anytime of the day or night.



    437824.jpg


  • #11
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    RF jamming is usually caused by a low battery or a faulty device. It is not very common and easily isolated via a process of elimination.


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    OK. I went with the SW-070 at the end of the day with a long battery and something else (!!).

    For some reason, however, my SW-070 is a day and date behind. How do I reset the date? I'm reading the instructions and it says go to the 'Timers' Menu' ==> 'Set Time and Date' but the problem is there's no such menu showing on my alarm box/buttons. Anybody able to help?


    Also, by mistake I recorded background noise on the alarm. I don't know what the function of a recorded message is on the alarm - I just use the keypad to set and unset it - but how do I remove that background noise and put it back to whatever was the default sound?

    Lastly, does everybody get a RF-Keyfob with this alarm, or does that cost extra? What does it actually do?

    Grma/Thanks a mill.


  • #13
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    OK. I went with the SW-070 at the end of the day with a long battery and something else (!!).

    For some reason, however, my SW-070 is a day and date behind. How do I reset the date? I'm reading the instructions and it says go to the 'Timers' Menu' ==> 'Set Time and Date' but the problem is there's no such menu showing on my alarm box/buttons. Anybody able to help?


    Also, by mistake I recorded background noise on the alarm. I don't know what the function of a recorded message is on the alarm - I just use the keypad to set and unset it - but how do I remove that background noise and put it back to whatever was the default sound?

    Lastly, does everybody get a RF-Keyfob with this alarm, or does that cost extra? What does it actually do?

    Grma/Thanks a mill.

    Is your panel a HKC 10-270 ?

    The date and time is adjusted in engineer mode, your system should be under warranty so I would get the installation company back to rectify this.

    Ok as for the audio function, press the Play button on the keypad twice and that will get rid of it.
    Well do it during the day, no point at this hour and possibly waking half your house ;).

    The RF keyfob, is a little wireless control unit that you can use to fully control your system within range of it. It also has a Panic button function as well.


  • #14
    almeera
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭almeera


    Hi kuB

    PLEASE HELP ME

    I have HKC alarm 1070 installed. I have GSM Q installed as well. can you please explain the connection to the HKC board. for switching lights on

    I have 12 v Dc Relay. I try to connect relay with +ve with Aux and - ve with ext bell. it working when the alarm goes off. but i want to work when i sent lights on command from phone. please tell me the connection and anything i have to do from programming side. Please help me ASAP. Thanking you.


  • #15
    almeera
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭almeera


    Hi kub

    I have HKC alarm 1070 installed. I have GSM Q installed as well. can you please explain the connection to the HKC board. for switching lights on

    I have 12 v Dc Relay. I try to connect relay with +ve with Aux and - ve with ext bell. it working when the alarm goes off. but i want to work when i sent lights on command from phone. please tell me the connection and anything i have to do from programming side. Please help me ASAP. Thanking you.


  • #16
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    Do I have to do it twice :D?


    Ok your + is correct.


    Your - is incorrect.


    Take the - feed out from the Ext Bell terminal.


    You need to connect that with one of the Outputs, they are below the bell outputs, numbered 1 through to 4.


    Once you have it connected into which ever one you will need to go to the Outputs Menu in Engineer Mode.
    I trust you have Access?


    Go to Output Type for the output you have connected your - to.


    Press Yes and with the hash button find Lights.


    When you see Lights, press Yes.


    Your Output number should now be blinking and the word Lights on steady.


    Come out of Engineer mode, then test the light function by pressing the Light Button on the keypad.


    Let me know how that goes for you please.


  • #17
    almeera
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭almeera


    HI Kub,

    Thank you for your quick reply.

    Its really work well. Appreciate for the help ....

    Thanks from bottom of heart.


  • #18
    murra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭murra


    Hi all,

    I’m currently in the market for an alarm system for a new build 3 bed sem-D.

    Trying to read up on all the alarm company offerings and systems to use etc etc. Finding it hard to know what’s best as there is so many differing views.

    My understanding is that a perimeter based alarm system is best. I note HomeSecure offer this type of system whereas Phone watch don’t.

    Can anyone outline the negatives to the HomeSecure offering ? Ignoring the monitoring aspect as I know ppl have their own individual view on whether to self monitor or pay for monitoring service.

    Any advice much appreciated.


  • #19
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The downside is you are tying yourself into a contract. Also, many of these systems that are cheaper up front are also tying you to that installation company because the equipment is tied to that installer. This means regardless of the length of the contract, you will be tied to that company for the life of the system.
    Would you sign up to any service provider for 10-15 years??
    Shop around more.
    Paying for the system will save you a lot of money.


  • #20
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The downside is you are tying yourself into a contract. Also, many of these systems that are cheaper up front are also tying you to that installation company because the equipment is tied to that installer. This means regardless of the length of the contract, you will be tied to that company for the life of the system.
    Would you sign up to any service provider for 10-15 years??
    Shop around more.
    Paying for the system will save you a lot of money.


  • #21
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    murra wrote: »
    My understanding is that a perimeter based alarm system is best. I note HomeSecure offer this type of system whereas Phone watch don’t.

    I believe Phonewatch can be spec'd with shock sensors (perimeter security as you call it) if you want that, if you are interested, you should call them and get a quote.

    Having said that I agree with Koolkid, these sort of systems end up costing two to three times more expensive over 10 years.


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  • #22
    van_beano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭van_beano


    Hi all,

    Instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd should post my query here as there's been recent activity from many a knowledgeable contributors for all things house alarms related.

    I've the HKC 1070 system with the wireless sensors. The sensor on the door has broken off after being hit. I've inhibited this sensor for now. I am presuming the sensor is ok as it says Tamper when close to the magnetic contact. Is it possible to get a new case from HKC as opposed to buying a completely new sensor?

    Thanks for your help.


  • #23
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    You could contact them and ask. While officially they dont deal with end users.In reality I have seen them send out many parts over the years.
    I don't think there is an option to buy/order the part separately from suppliers.


  • #24
    van_beano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭van_beano


    KoolKid wrote: »
    You could contact them and ask. While officially they dont deal with end users.In reality I have seen them send out many parts over the years.
    I don't think there is an option to buy/order the part separately from suppliers.

    Thanks Koolkid, I'll send them an e-Mail anyways. Was just wondering was there any other obvious places that I haven't checked.


  • #25
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    You could try some suppliers/installers who might have old ones that have been taker out or returned.


  • #26
    ashish.13
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭ashish.13


    Deleted User wrote: »
    OK. I went with the SW-070 at the end of the day with a long battery and something else (!!).

    For some reason, however, my SW-070 is a day and date behind. How do I reset the date? I'm reading the instructions and it says go to the 'Timers' Menu' ==> 'Set Time and Date' but the problem is there's no such menu showing on my alarm box/buttons. Anybody able to help?


    Also, by mistake I recorded background noise on the alarm. I don't know what the function of a recorded message is on the alarm - I just use the keypad to set and unset it - but how do I remove that background noise and put it back to whatever was the default sound?

    Lastly, does everybody get a RF-Keyfob with this alarm, or does that cost extra? What does it actually do?

    Grma/Thanks a mill.

    Hi All,
    Just looking to get one installed.

    I am so confused with all these motion vs perimeter sensors Pros and cons that at times I think about putting in both. Also the price difference is bearable.
    Q1: can someone plz comment if that’s a good/bad idea?

    when I spoke to companyA For quote they said companyB doesn’t hav anti jamming technology and would be outdated in 2 years.
    Q2: how does this anti-jamming work.? can we Somehow check/verify if a product has anti-jamming and other standards, while the other does not.?

    We need to select system
    - which has good battery.
    - Can be set/unset remotely,
    - Has anti-jamming and other standards
    - is wireless and self-monitored
    Q3: please suggest system(s) that would be best suiting us.?

    Thanks in advance.


  • #27
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ashish.13 wrote: »
    Hi All,
    Just looking to get one installed.

    I am so confused with all these motion vs perimeter sensors Pros and cons that at times I think about putting in both. Also the price difference is bearable.
    Q1: can someone plz comment if that’s a good/bad idea?

    If you can afford it, ideally both and preferably shock sensors for the door/window contacts.

    The ideal setup is door/window contacts (ideally shock sensors) on all doors and windows and then PIR's in the hallway.

    They have different uses.
    ashish.13 wrote: »
    when I spoke to companyA For quote they said companyB doesn’t hav anti jamming technology and would be outdated in 2 years.
    Q2: how does this anti-jamming work.? can we Somehow check/verify if a product has anti-jamming and other standards, while the other does not.?

    I wouldn't believe a word most of these companies say about other companies.

    Anti-jamming just means it can detect extra noise and interference on the wireless frequency and can notify you if it thinks there is jamming. It is pretty common on most systems. You can simply contact the other company and check with them if their system supports it or check the alarm spec on their website.
    ashish.13 wrote: »
    We need to select system
    - which has good battery.
    - Can be set/unset remotely,
    - Has anti-jamming and other standards
    - is wireless and self-monitored
    Q3: please suggest system(s) that would be best suiting us.?

    Thanks in advance.

    If you want to go professional install, then either a HKC, GSD or Vanderbilt systems.

    If you want to go DIY, then Yale, Honeywell or the new Ring system.

    I've a Yale Smart Alarm system, it has pros and cons, but I'm happy with it.


  • #28
    galteeboy
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭galteeboy


    Just got a quote of €2200 for installation of the following from a company and just want to know if it is good value. They quoted a bit less for a wired system but dont really want to chase walls for cables or have cables showing.

    3no. HKC Wireless Sensor/Contacts for Doors

    13no. HKC Wireless Sensor – only, for Window openings and fixed panel @ sliding door

    1no. HKC Wireless Internal PIR Motion Sensors – Hallway (Will only be turned on when alarm on Full Set when everyone out of the house – otherwise a “Partset” turns on windows and doors only)

    1no. HKC Wireless External Sounder/Flashing External Unit

    1no. HKC Wireless Internal Sounder (Bedroom Hallway)

    1no. HKC Decoy Sounder Box for Back of House

    1no. HKC 10270 “Hybrid”(Wired and Wireless enabled Control Panel

    2no. HKC Wireless Slimline keypad (At Exit/Entry Doors Front and Back)

    1no. HKC Gsm incl Sim card which will “Text” phones if alarm activated and run an App on Smartphone/s

    1no. HKC Keyfob incl Panic Button


  • #29
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    galteeboy wrote: »
    Just got a quote of €2200 for installation of the following from a company and just want to know if it is good value. They quoted a bit less for a wired system but dont really want to chase walls for cables or have cables showing.

    We always recommend on this forum to get three quotes. Many installers do HKC systems, so should be able to get a like for like quote on that and you could also look at other systems.
    galteeboy wrote: »
    1no. HKC Gsm incl Sim card which will “Text” phones if alarm activated and run an App on Smartphone/s

    Make sure this is the "new" dual path wifi/gsm system and not the old gsm only system:

    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/


  • #30
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    bk wrote: »
    If you want to go professional install, then either a HKC, GSD or Vanderbilt systems.
    If you want to go DIY, then Yale, Honeywell or the new Ring system.

    Personally I would use HKC or Vanderbilt for a DIY install. They will not cost much more than the DIY alternatives you have suggested but will have many additional features as well as superior build quality.


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  • #31
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    2011 wrote: »
    Personally I would use HKC or Vanderbilt for a DIY install. They will not cost much more than the DIY alternatives you have suggested but will have many additional features as well as superior build quality.

    I've both a HKC system and Yale System. The build quality is much the same (though keypad is definitely better on the HKC), while the online service, app and home automation connectivity is VASTLY superior on the Yale.

    HKC has just two additional features:
    - shock sensors
    - GSM backup channel (optional).

    Yale also has additional features:
    - Connect with Hue Smart Lights, turns your whole home into a SAAB, very cool.
    - Alexa for voice control
    - Free app and self monitoring.
    - Turn on alarm automatically via geo-fencing
    - Apple Watch app for arm/disarm alarm.

    Plus a massive difference in cost.

    The Yale system isn't perfect, but I'm much happier with it then I ever was with the HKC system.

    I do think their is a place for high quality professional systems, but it pains me seeing people spending so much on systems that are so outdated.


  • #32
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    bk wrote: »
    I've both a HKC system and Yale System. The build quality is much the same (though keypad is definitely better on the HKC), while the online service, app and home automation connectivity is VASTLY superior on the Yale.

    HKC has just two additional features:
    - shock sensors
    - GSM backup channel (optional).

    Yale also has additional features:
    - Connect with Hue Smart Lights, turns your whole home into a SAAB, very cool.
    - Alexa for voice control
    - Free app and self monitoring.
    - Turn on alarm automatically via geo-fencing
    - Apple Watch app for arm/disarm alarm.

    Plus a massive difference in cost.

    The Yale system isn't perfect, but I'm much happier with it then I ever was with the HKC system.

    I do think their is a place for high quality professional systems, but it pains me seeing people spending so much on systems that are so outdated.


    Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly, they are owned by Assa Abloy now, just like Yale, so are now all part of the same organisation.


  • #33
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    bk wrote: »
    I've both a HKC system and Yale System. The build quality is much the same

    Not even in the same ballpark IMHO. Let's agree to disagree on that.
    while the online service, app and home automation connectivity is VASTLY superior on the Yale.

    That is a very different argument that stating what alarm system is more suited to DIY.

    I was responding to your last post in which you listed what alarm system were more suited to a DIY install. You have now responded by arguing that a Yale alarm is better for home automation which is a very different discussion.

    You are also assuming that DIYer's are of the view that home automation and alarms should go together. This is not necessarily the case.

    By the way do you know that HKC have launched their "HKC world of Connected Devices"? These will be on sale early in the new year. I got sent some photos of some of their new products today. I have no idea how good these products are.

    Personally I think that home automation and alarms are best kept separate. Although HKC can have inputs and outputs working with a cause and effect matrix (personally I wouldn't be interested).

    I find the HKC app very handy although I would be the first to say that it is very basic. It is more powerful when integrated with a Hikvision CCTV system (professional system).
    HKC has just two additional features:
    - shock sensors
    - GSM backup channel (optional).

    Even if we ignore those very important features this statement is incorrect. The HKC has many additional features.
    - Alexa for voice control

    HKC alarms can be armed and disarmed via Alexa or Google Home. Although not advisable (due to the very obvious security risk) all you have to do is install a €10 Sonoff switch within the panel and connect a dry contact from it to an input.
    - Turn on alarm automatically via geo-fencing

    Inadvisable IMHO but possible via a 3rd party device.
    - Apple Watch app for arm/disarm alarm.

    Can Sonoff or similar be controlled via an Apple watch? If so easy peasy, but again not something that necessarily appeals exclusively to DIYers.
    Plus a massive difference in cost.

    Incorrect, I posted the prices for you before.
    The Yale system isn't perfect, but I'm much happier with it then I ever was with the HKC system.

    ....and that is your choice. But you have not posted anything that suggests that it is more suited to a DIY install. Instead you have focused on why you think it is superior from a Home Automation perspective.
    I do think their is a place for high quality professional systems, but it pains me seeing people spending so much on systems that are so outdated.

    I think you are just assuming that the components cost a lot more when in fact they don't. A large part of the cost for a professional system is the labour, not the materials, which is fair enough as you are paying for expertise.

    If you are going to argue that there is a big price differential back it up.

    For me the best DIY materials are ones that are easy to install, have the features that I desire (which may not be home automation related) at the right price point.


  • #34
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    kub wrote: »
    Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly

    New HKC product:
    49020435577_ca0f7cd701.jpg


  • #35
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    2011 wrote: »
    New HKC product:
    49020435577_ca0f7cd701.jpg


    They have started an installers nationwide roadshow, I have seen and spoken to them about this.
    Whatever that is, looks awful.
    I have not heard or seen such a product.


  • #36
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    kub wrote: »
    Whatever that is, looks awful.

    Looks are not important as it would be out of sight.
    I have not heard or seen such a product.

    Discreet I/O that connect wirelessly with the main panel.


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  • #37
    Stoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,952 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    2011 wrote:
    Can Sonoff or similar be controlled via an Apple watch? If so easy peasy, but again not something that necessarily appeals exclusively to DIYers.

    Yes, as you say , really once the on off option is added by sonoff, it opens up the on off options

    Geofencing, button press on a smart device, watch, phone tablet etc

    If you have a sonoff opening your gate, the same command could turn off the alarm

    But BK knows all this too though!!!

    Thing is most people don't really want to mess with home automation imo.

    The market for self install with home automation is not huge imo.


  • #38
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Now that I reflect on it I see that everything that BK has listed as an “additional feature” that the Yale system has over HKC is something that is in fact easily achieved with not just HKC but other high quality professional systems such as Vanderbilt.
    Stoner wrote: »
    The market for self install with home automation is not huge imo.

    I disagree. The “fun” or “toy” systems available in places like Harry Norman’s (such as SmartThings) are now quite popular. I just think it is important that people don’t believe the disinformation that these systems are far cheaper than professional kit or are comparable in terms of quality or reliability.


  • #39
    Stoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,952 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    True I guess, I really mean the self install intruder alarm and home Auto combination.

    To me it's a hobby. My home automation kit can double as an intruder alarm.

    But I like having my wired intruder alarm..

    There's added value and there is the benefit of a system that does not need constant messing with and batteries etc.


    For me to he ring and nest hello doorbells are fantastic devices, very useful security devices that complement a home alarm.


  • #40
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    kub wrote: »
    Hopefully HKC will be going down that route shortly, they are owned by Assa Abloy now, just like Yale, so are now all part of the same organisation.

    Yes, if you combined the strengths of the Yale and HKC, you would have close to the perfect modern professional alarm system. Fingers crossed they do this.
    2011 wrote: »
    Now that I reflect on it I see that everything that BK has listed as an “additional feature” that the Yale system has over HKC is something that is in fact easily achieved with not just HKC but other high quality professional systems such as Vanderbilt.

    You could say the same about the Yale system. It really wouldn't take much to make it perfect. Just add a wireless shock sensor and new wireless keypad and you'd have the same features as a HKC. You wouldn't even need a new hub!

    You'd only need a new hub to add a 3g modem for backup comms. And Yale had that in previous systems, so they clearly have the tech for it.

    If you look at the Honeywell Evohome Alarm system, you see a DIY system that matches all those features, optional 3g modem, etc. Unfortunately it seems their software seems lacking compared to Yale and they now seem more focused on selling it to the likes of that well known alarm installation company.

    I'd argue what Yale have done is far from easy, I've actually reverse engineered their API for their app, they are using Amazon cloud services and it looks very well written. Explains why uptime and reliability of the monitoring is so good and notifications are pretty much instantaneous. I'm well impressed with their backend software.

    I don't think HKC on their own would have been big enough to hire a team of experienced software engineers to build such a good backend system, hub software, iphone app, android app, apple watch app, alexa integration, hue integration, etc. This is all far from trivial and would require a decent size team.

    Of course they are now part of Assa Alboy, so hopefully they can get help from the Yale and August software teams.
    2011 wrote: »
    I disagree. The “fun” or “toy” systems available in places like Harry Norman’s (such as SmartThings) are now quite popular. I just think it is important that people don’t believe the disinformation that these systems are far cheaper than professional kit or are comparable in terms of quality or reliability.

    Well Smartthings is different, it isn't sold as an alarm system here in Europe (though they have the ADL Smartthings alarm system in the US), it is more focused on pure home automation. While some folks hack it into being used as an alarm system, Samsung don't recommend it to be used as such.

    I'd agree that DIY alarm systems like Yale, Honeywell Evohome and now Amazon Ring, which are primarily alarm systems, but then are branching into smart home tech too, are quiet popular.

    Amazon will sell a ship load of Ring Alarm systems on black friday!

    I read a market report last year (sorry it was behind a paywall) that showed these new DIY alarm systems from big name brands like Google, Amazon, etc. were gaining significant market share, fastest growing segment in the market and they were predicting that they would make up the majority of alarm systems installs in a few years.

    Now that was a report on the global market, so it could play out differently here. But I wouldn't be betting against the likes of Amazon, Google, etc.

    Which is why I really hope the likes of HKC step up with modern, high tech pro install alarm systems to match and hopefully better them.


  • #41
    kub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    2011 wrote: »
    Looks are not important as it would be out of sight.



    Discreet I/O that connect wirelessly with the main panel.


    Ah I recall now, it came up in conversation some time ago, a wireless unit that could be used to control a gate etc.
    What wonders one could work with a wireless relay?

    I am looking forward to seeing it.


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  • #42
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, if you combined the strengths of the Yale and HKC, you would have close to the perfect modern professional alarm system. Fingers crossed they do this.



    You could say the same about the Yale system. It really wouldn't take much to make it perfect. Just add a wireless shock sensor and new wireless keypad and you'd have the same features as a HKC. You wouldn't even need a new hub!

    You'd only need a new hub to add a 3g modem for backup comms. And Yale had that in previous systems, so they clearly have the tech for it.

    If you look at the Honeywell Evohome Alarm system, you see a DIY system that matches all those features, optional 3g modem, etc. Unfortunately it seems their software seems lacking compared to Yale and they now seem more focused on selling it to the likes of that well known alarm installation company.

    I'd argue what Yale have done is far from easy, I've actually reverse engineered their API for their app, they are using Amazon cloud services and it looks very well written. Explains why uptime and reliability of the monitoring is so good and notifications are pretty much instantaneous. I'm well impressed with their backend software.

    I don't think HKC on their own would have been big enough to hire a team of experienced software engineers to build such a good backend system, hub software, iphone app, android app, apple watch app, alexa integration, hue integration, etc. This is all far from trivial and would require a decent size team.

    Of course they are now part of Assa Alboy, so hopefully they can get help from the Yale and August software teams.



    Well Smartthings is different, it isn't sold as an alarm system here in Europe (though they have the ADL Smartthings alarm system in the US), it is more focused on pure home automation. While some folks hack it into being used as an alarm system, Samsung don't recommend it to be used as such.

    I'd agree that DIY alarm systems like Yale, Honeywell Evohome and now Amazon Ring, which are primarily alarm systems, but then are branching into smart home tech too, are quiet popular.

    Amazon will sell a ship load of Ring Alarm systems on black friday!

    I read a market report last year (sorry it was behind a paywall) that showed these new DIY alarm systems from big name brands like Google, Amazon, etc. were gaining significant market share, fastest growing segment in the market and they were predicting that they would make up the majority of alarm systems installs in a few years.

    Now that was a report on the global market, so it could play out differently here. But I wouldn't be betting against the likes of Amazon, Google, etc.

    Which is why I really hope the likes of HKC step up with modern, high tech pro install alarm systems to match and hopefully better them.


    ^^^^ What has any of this got to do with the suitability of an alarm for a DIY install? :confused::confused::confused:

    In this post you stated suggested that some brands were more suited to DIY, when I challenged that you switched the argument to which alarm has better home automation features.

    Please explain why a Yale alarm is more suited to DIY install than a HKC or Vanderbilt system.





    .


  • #43
    Stoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,952 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    Lads we've gone completely off topic.

    If you want to have thread about the strengths of a diy setup versus a professionally installed alarm please open a thread on it.

    Also there's a bit of showmanship at play here. Talking about reverse engineering system software has nothing to do with the ops question.

    Again open a thread on it.

    Without failing into the same trap myself, most of the DIY alarm systems have issues.

    The list of devices available on professionally certified alarm systems is not limited to two devices as stated above. There are more features.

    Some of the iot features when offered on alarms add huge security issues. Geofencing features being a prime example.

    So if you want to completely change the direction of a thread please stop, and open a thread on it, here or in the iot forum

    Note again that some if the advice offered here is from a very limited and narrow experience foundation.

    Often hobbiest down play the amount of constant attention their hobby takes up. Many don't want that, like me and cars, I've no interest in servicing my car. I will add and buy many iot devices but recognise that I've an interest in it, that others won't share

    I can guarantee most here as someone who's had HKC, Siemens etc at home and used 100s in other projects and as someone with approximately 250 iot device at home that many if these units are very temperamental compared to the stable systems.

    I recognize that many if these iot devices will be in the bin in a few years, but my security system won't be.


    You need to spend time changing batteries reconnecting etc on many of the iot options.

    The batteries in professional systems can last 5 years compared to 6 to 12 months on smarthings, to a few months on Arlo cameras etc.

    I'm all for DIY. Some of these forums have been running for years. I'm very fast when reminding the professional installers not to downplay DIY kit and to remind people that it's legal to install an alarm on your own house.

    Yes there are even better self install alarms coming along, but it's important to note that home automation is added value to a security system, the tail can't wag the dog.

    Some of the downplaying of professionally installed systems is boarding on disinformation, added to win an argument rather than inform.

    Again I understand I'm taking an unpopular position on this, but it's important to recognise that this needs some balance here, I might end up on the wrong side of more people as a result but so be it.


  • #44
    Páid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    I've read through a lot of posts here and I'm lost. I am thinking of doing a self monitored HKC self install in a 3 bed semi-d.

    I need a HKC panel, 3 wireless sensors, outdoor siren and wifi module (not sure about gsm backup).
    What are the parts numbers I need?


  • #45
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    2011 wrote: »
    ^^^^ What has any of this got to do with the suitability of an alarm for a DIY install? :confused::confused::confused:

    In this post you stated suggested that some brands were more suited to DIY, when I challenged that you switched the argument to which alarm has better home automation features.

    Please explain why a Yale alarm is more suited to DIY install than a HKC or Vanderbilt system.

    HKC and Vanderbilt are designed to be professionally installed systems. Of course if you have the requisite skills that a professional installer has, electrical wiring, electronics, etc. then of course you could set one of these systems up yourself. But most normal people wouldn't have these skills.

    On the other hand, systems like Yale, Honeywell, Ring, etc. are specifically designed as consumer products, to be bought by ordinary consumers off Amazon and to be relatively easy for most ordinary people to set up and use.

    2011, it is great that you have the skills to do a HKC install yourself and thus at a significant discount versus the same system versus a pro install. But most people don't have those skills and thus I'd argue such systems are suited to a much wider group of people, who don't want or can't afford a full pro install system and who don't have the skills to DIY one.


  • #46
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Páid wrote: »
    I've read through a lot of posts here and I'm lost. I am thinking of doing a self monitored HKC self install in a 3 bed semi-d.

    I need a HKC panel, 3 wireless sensors, outdoor siren and wifi module (not sure about gsm backup).
    What are the parts numbers I need?

    Are you looking to get a professional install or DIY?

    If a professional install, then what I'd recommend is you contact three installers and get them to come out and quote you for such a system.

    If you are looking to do it DIY, then you can look here for the part numbers on the HKC website:
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/

    BTW I'd definitely go for the combined GSM/Wifi communicator. The wifi only card is old stock:

    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/


  • #47
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I think there is a lot of confusion around terminology.

    I've called systems DIY systems, that is probably bad terminology. There are generally two category of systems:

    - Professionally Installed Systems (HKC, Vanderbilt, etc.)
    - Consumer Installed Systems (Yale, Honeywell, Ring, etc.)

    Either type can be DIY installed. Though obviously the consumer oriented systems are designed with that in mind as their primary install method, unlike the pro install systems which usually assume some specialist training and skills.

    Of course interestingly you have the likes of the Honeywell Le Secure line, which could easily be installed by consumers, but are often installed as professional install systems by certain monitoring companies.

    So the lines are certainly blurring.

    IoT simply means Internet of Things and it pertains to any device that is internet connected. HKC, etc. systems with a wifi card and app are certainly IoT devices. Likewise are the newer Yale, Honeywell, etc. alarm systems.

    Of course you can install a HKC device without a wifi card and it isn't an IoT device, just as you can buy older Yale, Honeywell alarms on Amazon that have no internet connectivity.

    IoT does NOT mean Home Automation. They aren't the same thing. HA often requires devices to have IoT, but IoT is not HA, HA is an extra step beyond IoT.

    I'm not sure why people keep bringing up SmartThings! It isn't an alarm system. It is purely a HA device and a poor one IME. You can sort of use it as alarm if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

    The newer Yale, Honeywell, Ring are real alarm systems. They are designed as alarm systems, consumer oriented ones, that have IoT connectivity, but they are NOT HA devices. They have made small steps into HA, with integration with Alexa and Hue smart lighting. But those are very small steps and they are doing it in the right way. But they are still real alarms, designed first and foremost as alarm systems.

    I hope to see the traditional professional install systems to modernise their comms, internet connectivity, apps and make similar slow and careful steps into HA.

    Hopefully that helps clear up some confusion around terminology.


  • #48
    Páid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    bk wrote: »
    Are you looking to get a professional install or DIY?
    If you are looking to do it DIY, then you can look here for the part numbers on the HKC website:
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/

    BTW I'd definitely go for the combined GSM/Wifi communicator. The wifi only card is old stock:

    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/

    I'm looking to do DIY. There is a Visonic alarm panel in the hallway but it died some years ago. I'm planning to remove the panel and replace it with the HTC one.

    Is this all I need?

    One of each of these;
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/control-panels--packs/q70-p1p2bp2r---quantum-packs/
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/communicators/gsm-wifi---gsm---securecomm-wworld-sim--wifi/
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/sounders---wireless/rf-sabb-b--rf-sabb-r---external-sounder---base-blue-or-red/

    Three of these;
    https://www.hkcsecurity.com/en-IE/products/intrusion-detectors---wireless/rf-pir---pir/

    I don't want any keyfobs but I do want to use the HKC app.


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