Saorview Aerial Green Tip - Maghera

rampantbunny · 06-03-2021 8:12pm #1

Hi folks. I used a green-tip aerial in 2012 I think it was to pick up saorview channels at old address from Maghera. Not 100%, but pretty sure it worked at the time although we did get Sky installed not long after.
New address is only few miles from old, so last week I tried using the same aerial. I pointed it in direction of Maghera and see 60dB on a very basic (signal tester)

Very quick online search and saw I could do with a stronger signal. I was ordering a Zgemma H7S at the time so I added this to the order. What was delivered was a 52 element aerial not 48, due to stock reasons. This aerial is much bigger than the old green-tip and much different structure.
I bought the green-tip aerial in 2012 off an Irish site that no longer has references to green-tip. What they recommend for Maghera is a wideband white-tip whos' construction looks much the same as the green-tip.

Few questions;

The new high-gain aerial doesn't show a tip color...should it (although the literature does say wideband)?
The new high-gain aerial when tested using the same tester as was used on the old green-tip only registers 50 dB i.e. lower than the old green-tip. This is from roof of two story house. Does it seem like this new aerial is not a good fit or should it work and is maybe my tester a piece of crap?

None of my neighbors have saorview aerials that I can compare to. I'm within my cooling off period for online order so might be able to return the new aerial if needs be.

[Edit: just to add I have no affiliation with any products or companies via the links provided above]

Elvis Hammond · 06-03-2021 11:14pm

60 dB referenced to a microvolt is plenty of a signal level for digital terrestrial.

'Green tip', group C/D aerials are technically obsolete, but will still work fine for Maghera.

rampantbunny · 06-03-2021 11:34pm

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

60 dB referenced to a microvolt is plenty of a signal level for digital terrestrial.

'Green tip', group C/D aerials are technically obsolete, but will still work fine for Maghera.

60dBuv is suitable? - that's good to know.
The tester (see link in first post) doesn't provide a figure, only LED indicators. When testing the high-gain aerial it could be reading 59dB but I would have expected it to at least match the green-tip and if I'm honest, to exceed it. Any idea why it is not doing either of these?

TBH - even if it only matched the green-tip I'd put it up just to avoid the returns process.

Elvis Hammond · 07-03-2021 12:03am

That tester is just a basic pointing tool, with a very wide bandwidth & I assume responds to FM radio & all sorts; maybe the C/D aerial is picking up more of this or, it just might be better at its intended job than the other aerial.

winston_1 · 07-03-2021 12:39am

rampantbunny wrote: »

What was delivered was a 52 element aerial not 48, due to stock reasons.

There are no 52 element aerials or 48 element. The usual trick is to count the elements 4 times.

The max (true) element count is around 21.

Crossed elements are one, not four. The reflector is one element not the total of parts.

The Cush · 07-03-2021 2:35am

rampantbunny wrote: »

I used a green-tip aerial in 2012 I think it was to pick up saorview channels at old address from Maghera. Not 100%, but pretty sure it worked at the time although we did get Sky installed not long after.

Very quick online search and saw I could do with a stronger signal. I was ordering a Zgemma H7S at the time so I added this to the order. What was delivered was a 52 element aerial not 48, due to stock reasons. This aerial is much bigger than the old green-tip and much different structure.
I bought the green-tip aerial in 2012 off an Irish site that no longer has references to green-tip. What they recommend for Maghera is a wideband white-tip whos' construction looks much the same as the green-tip.

Few questions;
The new high-gain aerial doesn't show a tip color...should it (although the literature does say wideband)?

The new high-gain aerial when tested using the same tester as was used on the old green-tip only registers 50 dB i.e. lower than the old green-tip. This is from roof of two story house. Does it seem like this new aerial is not a good fit or should it work and is maybe my tester a piece of crap?

First off, the 52 element aerial, no indication on the website what the coverage range of that aerial is, old wideband/new wideband/in group? Always recommended to use an in-group aerial for your recommended transmitter.
Maghera is a hi-power main transmitter so the hi-gain aerial should work but is probably overkill for Maghera and could overlap the mobile frequency range.

Signal level, 50 dBμV - 75 dBμV at the wallplates is recommended for Saorview reception.

The green-tip Group C/D (UHF48–68) aerial was the recommended aerial for Maghera in analogue TV days up to 2012. No longer recommended as it now completely overlaps the 700/800MHz mobile bands and may be susceptible to interference from any nearby mobile basestations. Slightly out of range for the current Maghera frequencies, UHF 46 & 48.

The white-tip Group T (UHF21–60) wideband aerial, post analogue-switchoff this aerial was recommended for Maghera. But since the 700 MHz was cleared of TV back in March 2020 for mobile services, this aerial in now no longer recommended as it will overlap the new 5G 700 MHz mobile band and as above may be susceptible to interference from any nearby mobile basestations.

Now the silver/grey-tip Group K (UHF21–48) wideband aerial is recommended for Maghera post 700 MHz clearance.

The Cush · 07-03-2021 2:43am

rampantbunny wrote: »

I bought the green-tip aerial in 2012 off an Irish site that no longer has references to green-tip. What they recommend for Maghera is a wideband white-tip whos' construction looks much the same as the green-tip.

I assume it was freetv.ie/tvtrade.ie and this page you're referring to - https://www.freetv.ie/grey-group-k-uhf-aerial/

Out of date information, should've been updated to reflect the 700 MHz band clearance, March 2020.

Yellow-tip Group B, should also be removed in my opinion.

rampantbunny · 07-03-2021 11:18am

winston_1 wrote: »

There are no 52 element aerials or 48 element. The usual trick is to count the elements 4 times.

The max (true) element count is around 21.

Crossed elements are one, not four. The reflector is one element not the total of parts.

Thanks Winston. I've seen a number of other threads where you've pointed this out. But does it matter in this case? New aerial has more elements regardless of the counting method used. I didn't buy the new item because of its element count but because of the high-gain marketing tag.

rampantbunny · 07-03-2021 11:45am

The Cush wrote: »

I assume it was freetv.ie/tvtrade.ie and this page you're referring to - https://www.freetv.ie/grey-group-k-uhf-aerial/

Out of date information, should've been updated to reflect the 700 MHz band clearance, March 2020.

Yellow-tip Group B, should also be removed in my opinion.

Correct, that's the site where I purchased the green-tip originally and now see white-tip recommended.

Re. new high-gain aerial; details on box say channel 21-69, frequency 470-862Mhz, group W wideband aerial.
From those details does it sound like it should work a bit better .. Do I need to get a better tester? Maybe I should just get the silver/grey-tip Group K (UHF21–48) wideband instead and cut my losses.

Elvis Hammond · 07-03-2021 12:19pm

I would say you don't need a better tester or another aerial; the 'test' can be provided by actual TV viewing.

My pick of the aerials you have would be the less obtrusive, more robust 10-element C/D aerial.

Johnboy1951 · 07-03-2021 12:24pm

rampantbunny wrote: »

Correct, that's the site where I purchased the green-tip originally and now see white-tip recommended.

Re. new high-gain aerial; details on box say channel 21-69, frequency 470-862Mhz, group W wideband aerial.
From those details does it sound like it should work a bit better .. Do I need to get a better tester? Maybe I should just get the silver/grey-tip Group K (UHF21–48) wideband instead and cut my losses.

Have a look at this chart

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Aerials/Aerial_Selection_Guide.html

For best results ...

The receiving aerial must match the channel group used by the transmitter serving the local area, point towards the transmitter, and be in the same ‘plane of the polarisation’.

It is of course a UK site so some allowances should be made for that.

The Cush · 07-03-2021 1:20pm

rampantbunny wrote: »

Re. new high-gain aerial; details on box say channel 21-69, frequency 470-862Mhz, group W wideband aerial.

Group W wideband aerials shouldn't be sold since 2012 because the top end of their range overlaps with the mobile bands and could be susceptible to interference from any nearby basestations.

Clearing out old stock by the looks of it, not surprising so that they don't include the frequency range or aerial group on the webpage.

rampantbunny · 07-03-2021 7:00pm

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

I would say you don't need a better tester or another aerial; the 'test' can be provided by actual TV viewing.

My pick of the aerials you have would be the less obtrusive, more robust 10-element C/D aerial.

I would've liked some proof that the aerial was sufficient before attaching to the house (2 storey). I've bought a zgemma box which I'm not familiar with. Don't want to have everything wired up, struggle with the zgemma and not know if the aerial itself is the cause of issues.
But my choice would be for the unobtrusive one if I hadn't shelled out for another that'll be a pain to return. I should've sought advice first but was in a hurry to order. Sky will be turned off this month.

Elvis Hammond · 07-03-2021 8:08pm

I would have expected the 'high gain' aerial to have a useful extra bit of gain at the frequencies used by Maghera, but whether you actually need it or not is another matter.

The fact you're taking the trouble to put the aerial at height outdoors should be enough in this case.

I suppose you could try your test again, double checking that the aerial is correctly assembled & wired, & making sure it's not being affected by nearby objects. (Including yourself; make sure to hold it behind the reflector if you're working 'freehand'.)

rampantbunny · 07-03-2021 8:47pm

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

I would have expected the 'high gain' aerial to have a useful extra bit of gain at the frequencies used by Maghera, but whether you actually need it or not is another matter.

The fact you're taking the trouble to put the aerial at height outdoors should be enough in this case.

I suppose you could try your test again, double checking that the aerial is correctly assembled & wired, & making sure it's not being affected by nearby objects. (Including yourself; make sure to hold it behind the reflector if you're working 'freehand'.)

Not much to the assembley as it just clicks together and attach cable. Elements can be oriented vertically or horizontally (default)..tried both ways just to see if any difference but exact same result. No obstacles at back of house (rural area, no hills, trees). No masts nearby to interfere, at least none that I know of within 10 miles. Got out onto the actual roof this time via a large skylight. No improvement. Height doesn't improve the green-tip either so it's not saying much either way.

Same as what you say above, I'm surprised it hasn't some improvement over the non-high-gain unit..or at least the same result. Done with testing it now and will send it back. If W wideband are not even supposed to be sold since 2012 as per Cush post above, then it certainly is old stock (very).

snaps · 08-03-2021 11:30am

Start from basics, run a cable with no wall connections, direct from the Tv to the aerial. Run the cable out of the window to an accessible point near where the aerial will be installed. Have someone watch the manual tuning screen for signal.
If your using signal booster or amplifier, take out of equation. Just try first with clean length of cable, making sure no shorts.

swoofer · 08-03-2021 3:46pm

How far are you from the transmitter? If you go to saorview site and enter eircode it will tell you. Are you just testing signal strength or with a picture?? saorview tv etc. I am 24km from maghera. The signal without the amp was poor.

I have the zgemma h7s setup with this aerial and I use a masthead amp as some trees in the way. I get snr 87, agc 92. ch 46, 85 90, ch48

This is it
https://www.freetv.ie/aerial-for-saorview/

and this is the amp. I split signal for 3 tv's.

https://www.freetv.ie/uhf-masthead-amplifier/

rampantbunny · 08-03-2021 4:57pm

snaps wrote: »

Start from basics, run a cable with no wall connections, direct from the Tv to the aerial. Run the cable out of the window to an accessible point near where the aerial will be installed. Have someone watch the manual tuning screen for signal.
If your using signal booster or amplifier, take out of equation. Just try first with clean length of cable, making sure no shorts.

Cable is run from point on house where aerial will be affixed, into attic, and from there to TV. I don't have extra cable I can use to test direct connection to TV from an upstairs window. If I did I would have hooked up to the TV on day one and disregarded the tester. But maybe the tester should just be ignored from now on and TV picture used to judge.

swoofer wrote: »

How far are you from the transmitter? If you go to saorview site and enter eircode it will tell you. Are you just testing signal strength or with a picture?? saorview tv etc. I am 24km from maghera. The signal without the amp was poor.

I have the zgemma h7s setup with this aerial and I use a masthead amp as some trees in the way. I get snr 87, agc 92. ch 46, 85 90, ch48

This is it
https://www.freetv.ie/aerial-for-saorview/

and this is the amp. I plit signal for 3 tv's.

https://www.freetv.ie/uhf-masthead-amplifier/

39km from transmitter. Just testing signal strength but as per previous post the tester I'm using may not be the most accurate. Last night I ordered another aerial (as linked to by cush earlier). Not high-gain but will be interested to see what it registers. If signal strength is same as existing green-tip I will try wire to TV and take it from there I suppose. If the signal is not great, next option I presume is to try the high-gain (and another presumption is that the high-gain you linked to is a more appropriate fit when compared to the wideband high-gain I've just recently bought?)

swoofer · 10-03-2021 12:03pm

As said above the best test is run a cable from aerial to zgemma with the DTT tuned in. I have the zgemma as well.. At 39km from transmitter I would be looking at best possible aerial and cable. The one I linked does the job for me with the masthead amp. I also have used the 3 above it for friends and found the one for 17.95 very good and robust.

This one at sat world looks ok with a 20db gain,

High Gain UHF LTE Wideband Aerial is also at sat city.

https://satcity.ie/high-gain-uhf-lte-wideband-aerial.html

rampantbunny · 10-03-2021 12:28pm

swoofer wrote: »

As said above the best test is run a cable from aerial to zgemma with the DTT tuned in. I have the zgemma as well.. At 39km from transmitter I would be looking at best possible aerial and cable. The one I linked does the job for me with the masthead amp. I also have used the 3 above it for friends and found the one for 17.95 very good and robust.

This one at sat world looks ok with a 20db gain,

High Gain UHF LTE Wideband Aerial is also at sat city.

https://satcity.ie/high-gain-uhf-lte-wideband-aerial.html

Perfect. Thanks swoofer and everone else that responded. I'll hopefully get to testing this weekend if weather clears a bit.

swoofer · 24-03-2021 10:10am

well, what happened?

rampantbunny · 24-03-2021 6:10pm

Well, let me tell you...

Got a wideband aerial up and oriented correctly. Can't see a need for a masthead amplifier yet. Terrestrial signal reads: Ch46 SNR 36.2, AGC 99% | Ch48 SNR 35.2 , AGC 99%. Replaced the skyQ LNB.

Only scanned in channels at weekend and haven't sat down to watch anything but picture quality seemed good as I flicked through.

Zgemma setup almost complete. I've a question or two that I'll post over on the satellites forum. Went at it last night and no real issues, just some quirks and the usual newb bouquets questions.

swoofer · 24-03-2021 6:44pm

Now that is a result. Pic quality is very good in the zgemma.

Saorview Aerial Green Tip - Maghera

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