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Alcohol Supply Laws - Dunnes Stores

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    #32
    sexmag
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭sexmag


    Under His Eye wrote: »
    No specification on who has issued the Driving Licence or Passport.

    No I don't think so but then if the store selling the alcohol is not familiar with the driving license or passport they can ask for another form of Id, onus is on the purchaser prove they are of age


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    #33
    Under His Eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    Fair enough.

    I used to work in law enforcement stateside and we had a book of all ID types issued throughout the 50 states and territories. Very handy for checking out of state documents.


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    #34
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Lmklad wrote: »
    The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

    Show me where. Do a search for repeated threads on this matter. The legislation was amended.


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    #35
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Yes, but they believe you look under 26, so if they didn't look for ID they'd be going against policy and leaving themselves open to disciplinary action. Nobody wants to get fired over something as small as that.

    He might just look young rather than being small!


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    #36
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    I find it comes down to whats being purchased and what it looks like the intent is.

    buying a load of bargain vodka / cider / lager / alcopops, as in more than enough for 1 person then you'll be id'd as its pretty obvious.

    going up to the counter with say a 4-6 pack of premium beer or not a naggin of premium spirits and most places will let you away.

    rocking up to dunnes counter with a bottle of their cheapest vodka or 24 cans of whatever beer is on special / cheapest will have them asking for ID for anyone looking under 25. Similarly alcopops/pre mixed cans / anything thats 5% alcohol 95% bright colours and sugar is definitely going to get you id'd . and to be fair most of the time they're not wrong.


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    #37
    Corruptedmorals
    Registered Users Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭Corruptedmorals


    If you sell alcohol to a minor in Dunnes you are fired. It's written in to the contracts, there are no warnings first. That's why the staff are invested in following 'think 25' policies because their jobs are on the line. I would put money that Tesco's contracts say the exact same thing.

    When I worked there I sold clothes and never ever worked in the supermarket part. But every 3 months we were retrained on the sale of alcohol policy anyway. It definitely mentioned IDing friends/companions and being vigilant about teenagers gathering outside or in the car park with the express intention of asking others to buy them drink etc. It makes sense to ID a friend, it is not clear if the alcohol is for the purchaser or the 17 year old mate. It makes absolutely no sense at all to ID a 10 year old whose parent puts wine into the weekly shop.


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    #38
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Under His Eye wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    I used to work in law enforcement stateside and we had a book of all ID types issued throughout the 50 states and territories. Very handy for checking out of state documents.

    Very good book im sure, does it cover ethiopia, south africa, brazil, syria and argentina (last 5 threads i remember on where a non national complained that their passport wasnt accepted as id)


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    #39
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Lmklad wrote: »
    The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

    Show me where. Do a search for repeated threads on this matter. The legislation was amended.


    Here ya go,

    Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

    Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

    (a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

    (b) a passport,

    (c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

    (d) a driver licence, or

    (e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    He might just look young rather than being small!

    SHE is both!


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    #41
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Lmklad wrote: »
    Here ya go,

    Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

    Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

    (a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

    (b) a passport,

    (c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

    (d) a driver licence, or

    (e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.


    As far as I can see that's licenced premisses not off licences.

    EDIT: Let me do a search when I get home otherwise I'm going to be late for work! :pac:


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    #42
    c6ysaphjvqw41k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 466 ✭✭c6ysaphjvqw41k


    This post has been deleted.


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    #43
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »


    As far as I can see that's licenced premisses not off licences.

    EDIT: Let me do a search when I get home otherwise I'm going to be late for work! :pac:

    “Off licence” is a licensed premises, it’s an off licence as opposed to an on licence. The Act applies to all alcohol merchants.


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    #44
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,149 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Lmklad wrote: »
    Here ya go,

    Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

    Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

    (a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

    (b) a passport,

    (c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

    (d) a driver licence, or

    (e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.


    Section 34 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act refers to children on licenced premises. The first part of the section you quoted makes this clear

    34A.—(1) The holder of a licence of any licensed premises shall not allow a person who is aged at least 18 years but under the age of 21 years to be in the bar of those premises between 9.00 p.m. and 10.30 a.m. on the following day (12.30 p.m. if the following day is a Sunday) if the person does not produce an age document to the holder.




    the section relating to the selling of alcohols to those under 18 is section 31. For this section production of an Age Card seem to be the only defence


    Originally having reasonable grounds to believe that a person was over 18 was also sufficient

    Original Act

    31.—(1) The holder of any licence shall not—


    (4) In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.


    But this was amended to Age Cards only in 2000 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/17/section/14/enacted/en/html#sec14

    “(4) In any proceedings for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person or, if the defendant is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to either of those subsections, to prove that an age card relating to the person to whom the intoxicating liquor was sold or delivered was produced by that person to that other person.”.


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    #45
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    “Other reasonable grounds for believing”

    The age card is specifically mentioned as it is the only document specifically designed to allow for the purchase or consumption of alcohol from on or off licences. Other reasonable grounds will be fulfilled by the production of the other prescribed forms of acceptable ID.


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    #46
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Lmklad wrote: »
    “Other reasonable grounds for believing”

    The age card is specifically mentioned as it is the only document specifically designed to allow for the purchase or consumption of alcohol from on or off licences. Other reasonable grounds will be fulfilled by the production of the other prescribed forms of acceptable ID.
    Ohnonotgmail's point is that the "other reasonable grounds" language was deleted by amendment in 2000. Since then, only the age card provides a defence.


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    #47
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Lmklad wrote: »
    The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.

    That would unable many young people from EU (tourists, students, workers, etc) from buying alcohol here, as they might not hold any of those documents.

    Lmklad wrote: »
    Here ya go,

    Intoxicating Liqour Act 1988 as amended by Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008

    Section 34(a) (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

    (a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

    (b) a passport,

    (c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

    (d) a driver licence, or

    (e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.


    But from what you're saying here, EU national ID's should be accepted.

    So are the stores that refuse to accept Polish, Romanian, French, German, etc national ID card as proof of age, breaking above legislation?


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    #48
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,149 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CiniO wrote: »
    That would unable many young people from EU (tourists, students, workers, etc) from buying alcohol here, as they might not hold any of those documents.





    But from what you're saying here, EU national ID's should be accepted.

    So are the stores that refuse to accept Polish, Romanian, French, German, etc national ID card as proof of age, breaking above legislation?


    as i already posted he took this from the wrong section. The only acceptable defence to a charge of selling alcohol to a minor is the production of an age card.


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    #49
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Note 'age card' and 'age document'. EU nationals etc. can buy in pubs with the appropriate age document.

    Fair play for finding it I was struggling to say the least. I don't have consolidated legislation anymore, so I can see how anyone can get things mixed up.

    Edit: I think I've just made the same mistake. It's on the premises vs. actually buying?


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    #50
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,149 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Note 'age card' and 'age document'. EU nationals etc. can buy in pubs with the appropriate age document.

    Fair play for finding it I was struggling to say the least. I don't have consolidated legislation anymore, so I can see how anyone can get things mixed up.

    Edit: I think I've just made the same mistake. It's on the premises vs. actually buying?

    it is age card only for buying alcohol.


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    #51
    Monumental
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Monumental


    My seventeen year old grandson looks eighteen perhaps nineteen ,if he is at a checkout with a young person who may have id I would be more than happy that his id is also required He is allowed have a drink but in a controlled situation Well done to the sales assistant who questioned them


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    #52
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Note 'age card' and 'age document'. EU nationals etc. can buy in pubs with the appropriate age document.

    Fair play for finding it I was struggling to say the least. I don't have consolidated legislation anymore, so I can see how anyone can get things mixed up.

    Edit: I think I've just made the same mistake. It's on the premises vs. actually buying?

    it is age card only for buying alcohol.


    You keep saying defense. That is for a prosecution, if a person presents a valid id as listed than a “defense” would not be required. That only becomes a factor is there is a prosecution which won’t happen if valid id as prescribed to be on the premises is presented. Alcohol merchants will accept a driver license and passport (from any country) as well as the age card.


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    #53
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,149 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Lmklad wrote: »
    You keep saying defense. That is for a prosecution, if a person presents a valid id as listed than a “defense” would not be required. That only becomes a factor is there is a prosecution which won’t happen if valid id as prescribed to be on the premises is presented. Alcohol merchants will accept a driver license and passport (from any country) as well as the age card.


    what am i like, quoting legislation in a legal discussion forum. At least i managed to quote the correct piece of legislation.

    And i have never said defense. the word is defence.


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    #54
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Under His Eye wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    I used to work in law enforcement stateside and we had a book of all ID types issued throughout the 50 states and territories. Very handy for checking out of state documents.

    Many RPU vehicles contain a similar document containing details of all EU (and countless more non EU) driving licences which also details the various things to look out for in identifying a forged one. I think there is also a passport version held in stations.

    Pity they didn't use it when following up on that Prawo Jazdy fella :)


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