We know who's boss, but who's right?

Iwannahurl · 20-10-2012 2:50pm #1

An Irish roundabout experience from a few days ago.

A. I approach the roundabout from this direction. The cycle lane is just about visible to the left. It ends several metres before the junction, and there are two traffic lanes entering the roundabout. I will be taking the third exit, marked F, which is at 3 o'clock approximately. This means it's a right turn, and in any case the right turn is clearly indicated on signage approx 250 metres back.

B. The right-hand entry lane is blocked with traffic.

C. The left entry lane is clear, so in order to go through the roundabout towards F this is the only reasonable route for me to take I reckon.

D. Unfortunately, a daily pattern has developed whereby a long line of motorists coming from this direction enters the roundabout in the right-hand lane, as required for a right turn (past 12 o'clock), then for some reason switches to the left lane after the first exit. Almost every motorist does it, every day. I always have to filter in a zig-zag manner to get past stationary cars at various points, eg those coming from the right and attempting to take the exit at D. On this occasion, as I pass this exit a motorist veers into the left lane in front of me (as illustrated by the red line) -- without signaling, I might add.

His window happens to be rolled down, and I say to him: "excuse me, are you turning right?"

He replies, "I'm going over there," gesturing towards the exit marked F.

I say "that's a right turn, you should be in the inside lane."

He shouts back: "a cyclist telling me what to do!" [Emphasis added to try to convey his incredulity and indignation]

E. He's still shouting as I go round him and continue along the inside lane towards the exit marked F.

F. There's a long line of cars clogging up the left side of the carriageway at this point (no lanes are marked until about 200 metres later approaching a signalised crossroads, but there are normally two lines of cars anyway) so I exit the roundabout in the right-hand "lane".

"A cyclist telling me what to do!" I liked that a lot, so I told him I'd quote him, and here I am.

Any comments or questions?

RobertFoster · 20-10-2012 3:05pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

An Irish roundabout

Well, there's your problem :pac:

Are there two lanes from F onwards?

Iwannahurl · 20-10-2012 3:08pm

Not marked lanes, but the carriageway is just about wide enough for two lines of traffic, which is often the case as there are two lanes marked approx 200 metres further on.

There is no room for cyclists on the left, so I always pass stationary or slow moving traffic on the right, then merge left when the opportunity arises.

I feel sorry for the school kids on bikes I see trying to squeeze meekly past between the cars and the kerb...

cdaly_ · 20-10-2012 5:06pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

right-hand lane, as required for a right turn (past 12 o'clock), then for some reason switches to the left lane after the first exit.

I'd say the behaviour is almost correct but too soon. The right turning vehicle should (having checked for traffic) move out to the left lane around E to be properly positioned for an exit onto a single lane road at F.

C. The left entry lane is clear, so in order to go through the roundabout towards F this is the only reasonable route for me to take I reckon.

So I reckon you're in the wrong here by entering via the left lane but they're in the wrong by moving left too soon.

I'd probably do the same thing myself on the bike though I'd aim to visibly merge with the top of the queue at B and then take the same red line through the roundabout...

Lusk Doyle · 20-10-2012 5:43pm

Or you could wait your turn in the right lane before entering the roundabout thus eliminating the issue of other road users moving across lanes in front of you.

Iwannahurl · 20-10-2012 8:13pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

I'd say the behaviour is almost correct but too soon. The right turning vehicle should (having checked for traffic) move out to the left lane around E to be properly positioned for an exit onto a single lane road at F.

It's a right turn, therefore the inside lane on the roundabout is the one to take. Why would it be correct to move towards the left before approaching the exit marked F? The motorists are occupying the left lane from the first exit (9 o'clock) onwards.

Is there any section of these RSA guidelines making the recommendation you describe?

cdaly_ wrote: »

So I reckon you're in the wrong here by entering via the left lane but they're in the wrong by moving left too soon.

I'd probably do the same thing myself on the bike though I'd aim to visibly merge with the top of the queue at B and then take the same red line through the roundabout...

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Or you could wait your turn in the right lane before entering the roundabout thus eliminating the issue of other road users moving across lanes in front of you.

The right-hand entry lane is always blocked with motorised traffic, for quite a distance back. The cycle lane positions me on the kerb side, potentially to the left of two lanes of traffic.

Are you suggesting that one approach is to leave the cycle lane and queue behind the line of cars? If so, why?

On the other hand, what exactly is the point in trying to merge with the top of the queue at B when there is little space in that lane, a clear lane to my left, a clear inside lane on the roundabout, and traffic is stalled or moving at a snail's pace? Am I meant to stall my bike because cars are stalled? If so, why?

As I stated earlier, I always have to filter in a zig-zag manner to get past stationary cars at various points, eg those coming from the right and attempting to take the exit at D. The lanes are not particular wide, IIRC, and towing a trailer means I have little room. Often no room in fact.

The roundabout itself is often clogged with cars, even on those yellow boxes, so at "rush" hour I have to squeeze through each roundabout on my route. In my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever, within reason, for cyclists to queue up with cars to pass through roundabouts or other junctions. If that's a requirement, what advantage does cycling offer over and above car commuting?

cdaly_ · 21-10-2012 12:52am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a right turn, therefore the inside lane on the roundabout is the one to take. Why would it be correct to move towards the left before approaching the exit marked F? The motorists are occupying the left lane from the first exit (9 o'clock) onwards.

Is there any section of these RSA guidelines making the recommendation you describe?

Nope.

Funny that, I may just have made it up. Seems sensible to me though, particularly with big multi-lane roundabouts (motorway junctions etc) where you would end up having to cross one or two lanes when you finally get to your exit.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

On the other hand, what exactly is the point in trying to merge with the top of the queue at B when there is little space in that lane, a clear lane to my left, a clear inside lane on the roundabout, and traffic is stalled or moving at a snail's pace? Am I meant to stall my bike because cars are stalled? If so, why?

Funnily enough, the rulesoftheroad.ie roundabouts page seems to support your method:

rulesoftheroad.ie wrote:

cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout,

tomasrojo · 21-10-2012 2:43am

I find the term "inside lane" confusing in the context of roundabouts. I instinctively think of the "inside lane" as the lane nearest the roundabout, but I think I remember Lumen pointing out that it's the one furthest away (since that is the lane analogous to the "inside lane" on a standard road -- i.e. the left-hand lane). I believe he said that "Lane A", "Lane B", etc. are the preferred terms to avoid confusion on this issue.

I think you can expect just about anything to happen on a roundabout. They're a "collision-rich" environment for all road users. I hate them, and try to plan them out of my customary routes. Given Irish road engineers' love of them though, that's getting very hard to do on newer roads.

stoneill · 21-10-2012 2:55am

Everyone is wrong:
The roundabout there in the pic has only one lane.

tomasrojo · 21-10-2012 3:07am

stoneill wrote: »

Everyone is wrong:
The roundabout there in the pic has only one lane.

All the feeder roads have two lanes. Perhaps the image is too low-res to show the lane divider on the roundabout.

Beasty · 21-10-2012 9:28am

It clearly has 2 lanes as evidenced by the hash markings which only cover half of the width

On the wider issue, IMO cyclists may use the left lane all the way round based on the ROTR wording (I would typically use the right lane until after the penultimate exit, but I feel confident enough as unlike a lot of others I can usually keep pace with the traffic). The RSA booklet linked to above is clearly aimed at "motorists" rather than "drivers"

This whole idea of taking different lanes based on which side of 12 o'clock the exit is looks a bit odd in this example though. A motor vehicle entering at C exiting at F would be expected to take the right lane whereas one entering at D exiting at F would be expected to take the left lane. In these circumstances it seems eminently sensible for a cyclist to make sure they are in the left lane, certainly on passing entry D rather than waiting to get past E

rp · 21-10-2012 9:47am

Beasty wrote: »

cyclists may use the left lane all the way round based on the ROTR wording

That recommendation in the ROTR has always bothered me: it puts cyclists in the one place where drivers will not be looking. Franklin is very clear on this:

Always keep away from the outside edge of a roundabout, no matter which exit you intend to take
As well taking you too close to the high-risk zone of the give way markings, such a position makes you all the more difficult to see by drivers.
At roundabouts in particular, drivers are above all looking out for other motor vehicles. As a cyclist, you are safest if you ride where a car would be driven for the same maneuver.
Near the edge, you make also be masked by signs and lampposts, and you are very likely to be cut across by drivers turning left - another of the most common causes of collision

Beasty · 21-10-2012 10:00am

rp wrote: »

That recommendation in the ROTR has always bothered me: it puts cyclists in the one place where drivers will not be looking. Franklin is very clear on this:

You can be in the left lane without being near the "outside edge". The problem is less confident cyclists will often be near the "outside edge" of the left lane, and TBH that's what motorists would normally expect (and they should be looking - that's why the ROTR tell them to be aware of cyclists and other slow moving vehicles). I agree though that it's best to keep well away from the edge. As I indicated, I'm confident enough to position myself in whatever lane is most appropriate

Postit · 21-10-2012 6:59pm

NOT RELEVANT -CramCycle

Iwannahurl · 22-10-2012 9:58pm

I adapt my approach depending on conditions.

At "rush" hour, when stalled and slow-moving traffic is clogging up that roundabout, including the yellow boxes, I thread my way through as necessary.

Solo, at other times, I take the inside lane for a right turn, as per guidelines. I avoid the outside edge if at all possible, as advised by Cyclecraft.

Regardless of approach, I often find motorists trying to overtake me on roundabouts wherever they think there might be a gap, even if that means weaving left and right and entering hatched areas to get an advantage.

For some motorists it is an extremely important goal to beat a cyclist through a roundabout, by whatever means necessary.

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We know who's boss, but who's right?

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