Rent freeze?

garhjw · 10-12-2019 7:24am #1

Fine election stunt by SF. If it got through how would it be mechanised?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-expected-to-oppose-nationwide-rent-freeze-and-tax-relief-proposals-969430.html

handlemaster · 10-12-2019 7:26am

garhjw wrote: »

Fine election stunt by SF. If it got through how would it be mechanised?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-expected-to-oppose-nationwide-rent-freeze-and-tax-relief-proposals-969430.html

Anything for a vote

overkill602 · 10-12-2019 7:35am

This is the worst option in a housing supply crisis but it’s a SF populist stunt
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-09/berlin-builders-hit-the-streets-in-backlash-over-rent-freeze
Anti investment in private residential accommodation
property prices to slide on market uncertainty
jobs in construction to go
less supply will effect tenants
more homeless
more derelict buildings and lower standards
less tax revenue

The Student · 10-12-2019 9:04am

garhjw wrote: »

Fine election stunt by SF. If it got through how would it be mechanised?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-expected-to-oppose-nationwide-rent-freeze-and-tax-relief-proposals-969430.html

Shows the short sightedness of politicians, another policy that will discourage increased supply of much needed rental properties.

If this is the way politicians think no wonder we are were we are.

We need more supply so lets introduce a policy that encourages existing suppliers in the market to leave and discourages new entrants.

Seriously you could not make this stuff up. Is it the 1st of April?

silver2020 · 10-12-2019 9:11am

garhjw wrote: »

Fine election stunt by SF. If it got through how would it be mechanised?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-expected-to-oppose-nationwide-rent-freeze-and-tax-relief-proposals-969430.html

That's the party of Aonghus OSnodaigh who is leading the opposition to an apartment complex on the site of the Royal Liver retail park (next to a Luas and excellent other public transport links)

Pot Kettle Black

aristotle25 · 10-12-2019 9:17am

I wouldnt have a big issue with a rent freeze for 2-3 years if I could increase the rent on my property up to market rates.

Currently I am restricted from doing so and its probably 40% less than market rate.

tabby aspreme · 10-12-2019 9:48am

Eoin O Broin debating this a while ago on morning Ireland, with Joe Doyle, Doyle punched holes through this stupidity, a true blue Dub talking sense and a Champagne Marxist talking crap

Mad_maxx · 10-12-2019 10:22am

This is designed to drive more people towards state dependency, the likes of SF can continue to blame the " private market" when this fails and as the media are onside with demonising that private market, there are only gains here for the hard left

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 10:28am

It seems to have full Opposition support, FF yet to decide on it. Not sure about this at all but doesn't bode well for the next Dail unless voters come away from the people "powah" of the left, otherwise more populist meddling could ensue. The tax relief is utterly dubious. Ironically it looks like the kind of thing that could push out even more small landlords and boost the numbers of the even more hated cuckoo funds.

overkill602 · 10-12-2019 10:49am

if this goes through politics and idiots who represent it are less irrelevant they are lost in there own world of idiocy just look at the gombeems in kerry.
The recent last bi-electon 25-30% turnout
Our"" don't want to pay", welfare culture and over paid PS ( no votes items) is dragging us into another bailout.
Clever ones have moved at least some there wealth to safe havens.

Fol20 · 10-12-2019 11:18am

You keep hearing figures of 24k average rent on the morning show. Not sure if this is accurate or not but Doyle should have rebutted this with a working example. Let’s say the ll get 24k. We have mortgage payments of 17k incl principle pay down. Then maintenance coupled with a tax could leave you at a break even point in terms of cash flow.

Gael23 · 10-12-2019 12:49pm

Should this pass, it will bring down the government so is very unlikely to make it into law.
If it does, it will cause a mass exodus of landlords form the letting market, a huge spike in homelesness and a nosedive in house prices as landlords sell up.

Samuel T. Cogley · 10-12-2019 3:27pm

How do you freeze rents on new tenancies as is being proposed (along with existing).

garhjw · 10-12-2019 5:06pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

How do you freeze rents on new tenancies as is being proposed (along with existing).

I doubt SF have put any thought into it. It’s a piece of populist sh*t.

mrslancaster · 10-12-2019 5:27pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

How do you freeze rents on new tenancies as is being proposed (along with existing).

just reading the bill and existing tenancies will be frozen at the rate being paid on the date the legislation is enacted, and new tenancies will be set according to the RTB rent index for equivalent properties within the local electoral area for 3 years. the bill wants the minister to look at the cost of giving tenants a tax refund of 8% of the annual rent
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2019/99/eng/initiated/b9919d.pdf

when is this happening?

ELM327 · 10-12-2019 5:31pm

SF will never be in government here so they can pull stunts like this without ever having to worry about following through.

Fian · 10-12-2019 6:13pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fianna-fil-to-back-legislation-that-would-implement-statewide-rent-freeze-38771077.html

Long way between second stage and enactment though.

Old diesel · 10-12-2019 6:23pm

Fol20 wrote: »

You keep hearing figures of 24k average rent on the morning show. Not sure if this is accurate or not but Doyle should have rebutted this with a working example. Let’s say the ll get 24k. We have mortgage payments of 17k incl principle pay down. Then maintenance coupled with a tax could leave you at a break even point in terms of cash flow.

There are number of factors to be considered imo.....

How much do landlords need over the long term to keep it attractive to stay in. In terms of rent per month.

Ability to pay - it's all very well to say let the market sort it but if lots of people can't afford the market rent what then?????.

What rental model should we go for.

Is the cost of keeping landlords happy actually worth it - we need to look at the hard cost of doing what it takes to make landlords happy and what we get in return in terms of product.

At 24 k a year that's 240 k over 10 years if no increase - and because a freeze is not fair that cost goes up. We know it goes up because the reason a freeze is problematical is that the 24 k isnt enough.

So a smaller figure if more supply won't be enough either

Remember if supply ever catches up - that 24 k ends up being a smaller figure.

garhjw · 10-12-2019 6:31pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

just reading the bill and existing tenancies will be frozen at the rate being paid on the date the legislation is enacted, and new tenancies will be set according to the RTB rent index for equivalent properties within the local electoral area for 3 years. the bill wants the minister to look at the cost of giving tenants a tax refund of 8% of the annual rent
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2019/99/eng/initiated/b9919d.pdf

when is this happening?

So does that mean some landlords could significantly increase rent if their unit is well below the RTB index for that area?

L1011 · 10-12-2019 6:43pm

ELM327 wrote: »

SF will never be in government here so they can pull stunts like this without ever having to worry about following through.

Opposition bills have passed already in this Dail

This one won't have time however

mrslancaster · 10-12-2019 6:50pm

garhjw wrote: »

So does that mean some landlords could significantly increase rent if their unit is well below the RTB index for that area?

it just looks like another bit added on to the rent review rules. would it affect any landlord who is upgrading or adding on an extension or doing work under the new rules that came in a few months ago? so many changes

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 6:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

Opposition bills have passed already in this Dail

This one won't have time however

The tax rebate side of it wouldn't get through.

Old diesel · 10-12-2019 7:07pm

garhjw wrote: »

So does that mean some landlords could significantly increase rent if their unit is well below the RTB index for that area?

RTB index related proposal seems to relate what price new rentals would enter the market at.

Mind you it would be a good idea to allow existing below market rent properties be eligible for an RTB index linked increase to market rent.

mikemac2 · 10-12-2019 7:12pm

Fol20 wrote: »

You keep hearing figures of 24k average rent on the morning show. Not sure if this is accurate or not but Doyle should have rebutted this with a working example. Let’s say the ll get 24k. We have mortgage payments of 17k incl principle pay down. Then maintenance coupled with a tax could leave you at a break even point in terms of cash flow.

For that example one more year paid off your asset and since its break even you don't put your hand in your pocket and yet you paint it as all negative ?

Why do landlords exclude this point? Unless the house is shoddy timber and will fall down in 20 years it's very relevant

accensi0n · 10-12-2019 7:16pm

My landlord hasn't increased rent in over 3 years. This may trigger him to do it and go for the maximum. Thanks SF.

garhjw · 10-12-2019 7:22pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

For that example one more year paid off your asset and since its break even you don't put your hand in your pocket and yet you paint it as all negative ?

Why do landlords exclude this point? Unless the house is shoddy timber and will fall down in 20 years it's very relevant

How is it break even? If there is a rent freeze but inflation continues to rise that isn’t break even. Cost of painter, carpenter, electrician, depreciation / repair / renewal of furniture and fittings, increases in property tax, increased RTB registration fees... but rent received remains unchanged

garhjw · 10-12-2019 7:57pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

Inflation in the future how are ya, none of us are economists.

I quoted an post on annual cashflow and replied on one year basis and now you have drifted into the future

That makes no sense. It’s a 3 year rent freeze that is proposed so it is future oriented.

godtabh · 10-12-2019 8:10pm

accensi0n wrote: »

My landlord hasn't increased rent in over 3 years. This may trigger him to do it and go for the maximum. Thanks SF.

I haven’t but will be now regardless. Need to protect my assets at the cost of the tenant.

FF now supporting the bill.

I wonder how quick it would be to reverse rent freezes in the event of a down turn?

ReverseGiraffe · 10-12-2019 8:28pm

If the bill passed how soon would it take effect?

Bigmac1euro · 10-12-2019 9:47pm

I hope the tax credit can be back dated. That would be amazing!

Assetbacked · 10-12-2019 11:03pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Should this pass, it will bring down the government so is very unlikely to make it into law.
If it does, it will cause a mass exodus of landlords form the letting market, a huge spike in homelesness and a nosedive in house prices as landlords sell up.

A nose dive in prices is a good thing.

Steadily increasing the rent 4% each year seems to be accepted practice which is ridiculous. The rental credit is also a good thing. Desperate times etc. until supply picks up.

Rent freeze?

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