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Smoke alarms and carbon monoxide alarms in rental property

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  • 20-09-2015 12:59am
    #1
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭


    in October by law in the UK all landlords renting out property (private I presume) must have a smoke alarm fitted to every level of the property and also have to fit a carbon monoxide alarm in rooms that have a fuel burning indoor boiler or stove. Is there a same or similar law for ireland? - Im pretty sure every rental property has to have a smoke alarm or 2 fitted in the property by law in Ireland but i dont think i have ever read about being law to have a carbon monoxide alarm fitted.

    We have an indoor oil central heating boiler in our property inside which was the Dining room but now we are using the room as a living room. The room has a clear of dirt vent in the wall to the outside adjacent to the boiler - is it still good to get a carbon monoxide detector fitted in the room too even though there is an outside vent? - we keep talking about getting one but we still havent got one yet.

    And what about smoke alarms, would it be overkill to have a smoke alarm in every room? we have a smoke alarm in the hall and in the utility room but if you have doors shut then if a fire broke out in any of the other rooms it would have to reach the smoke alarm in the hall, by that time the fire in the other rooms would have took hold good and proper - nearly every room in the house has electrics in that room even if its a socket that shorted out or a bulb that overheated or light fitting that can catch alight or a tv or something else yet as I see it most requirements are just for a smoke alarm or 2 to be supplied in the hall or landing!

    - has anyone on here got a smoke alarm in every room of their house? - I know if you have one in the kitchen it goes off easily when cooking and people take the battery out, maybe this is why people install it in the hall as the best place to put them.
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    #2
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    By law you only need 2 in your rental property here. I think one in each room is overkill. Although a some smoke alarm is less than €10. So a piece of mind is nice. I would have one on the landing and in the hall. One in the sitting room and a heat detector in the kitchen. It's important to have a fire blanket.

    Yes you need a carbon monoxide alarm. Tenants block vents constantly. Even if the vent was working. It might not clear all the carbon monoxide. The alarm is less than €40. It's worth the money


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    #3
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    its just been carbon monoxide awareness week 21st - 27th in Ireland has anyone seen anywhere (government or fire dept or diy places) giving away any free carbon monoxide alarms at all? - just chancing me arm like :o

    In the past I have managed to get a couple of free smoke alarms when fire brigades have done the smoke alarm awareness weeks at events.


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    #4
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    its just been carbon monoxide awareness week 21st - 27th in Ireland has anyone seen anywhere (government or fire dept or diy places) giving away any free carbon monoxide alarms at all? - just chancing me arm like :o

    In the past I have managed to get a couple of free smoke alarms when fire brigades have done the smoke alarm awareness weeks at events.
    They are a good bit dearer though, too much to be giving away for free, whereas you'd get 2 smoke alarms for a tenner in some shops

    If you do see some one giving them away for free grab one for me :pac:


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    #5
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    riffmongous wrote: »
    They are a good bit dearer though, too much to be giving away for free, whereas you'd get 2 smoke alarms for a tenner in some shops

    If you do see some one giving them away for free grab one for me :pac:

    remember seeing ones in local Tesco once for 12euro a piece, nice top of the range ones with LCD display as well - I procrastinated and then when I did decide to get one they had sold out!


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    #6
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    remember seeing ones in local Tesco once for 12euro a piece, nice top of the range ones with LCD display as well - I procrastinated and then when I did decide to get one they had sold out!
    I missed out on cheap ones in aldi too, cost me much more in the long run


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There are two smoke alarms in our place (don't appear very sensitive though as the down stairs one doesn't go off even with a lot of cooking smoke). No carbon monoxide one, don't think I've seen one in any rental property.


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    #8
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    Aldi have smoke alarms and CO alarms this thur. Two smoke alarms for 9.99, and a CO for €19.99. Not sure about quality, but presumably they all have to live up to some basic standards anyhow!


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    #9
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    I live in rental accommodation and there are plenty of landlord supplied things that can catch alight, old wiring, old switches and sockets, old indoor central heating oil boiler which we have inside our living room! (which could also lead to C02 poisoning) and all that is supplied is 2 god knows how old but dont look modern (battery operated?) smoke alarms in the ceiling.

    I happen to think if you are going to go into the rental business or going to rent out to your house to people you should be liable for their welfare whilst they are in your property.

    So ok ripping out all the wiring and switches and sockets and updating with the latest safety regulations may be a bit over the top and impracticable especially with old houses built in the 70's

    But therefore if I was in charge of things I would go right then you cannot rent out that property unless you get someone professional to wire in modern up to date smoke alarms, the ones that run on mains electricity as well as battery operated (you can get them).

    Then i would make it compulsory to include a carbon monoxide alarm for any and each room with an open or closed fire or gas or oil central heating boiler.

    To go one step further I would go further and say if you have an indoor central heating boiler such as gas or oil you may not rent out your property unless the central heating boiler is moved to outside of the property. Even if they are serviced once a year I still think they are too dangerous to have inside the house with the risk of fire, explosion, and potential carbon monoxide fumes - if your talking about tenants safety its far safer to have a boiler 'blow up' or catch fire or leak fumes if its outside of the house rather than if its inside the house in the living area!

    Plus we are renting the place, its not ours we don't own it or will never own it apart from our own piece of mind and safety aside why should we as tenants have to buy up to date smoke alarms and carbon monoxide alarms for the house?


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »

    To go one step further I would go further and say if you have an indoor central heating boiler such as gas or oil you may not rent out your property unless the central heating boiler is moved to outside of the property. Even if they are serviced once a year I still think they are too dangerous to have inside the house with the risk of fire, explosion, and potential carbon monoxide fumes - if your talking about tenants safety its far safer to have a boiler 'blow up' or catch fire or leak fumes if its outside of the house rather than if its inside the house in the living area!

    Most of your post is total overkill but this is particular nonsense. Outdoor boilers are almost unheard off nowadays all new builds have indoor boilers for many years now.

    I worked in construction part time during college always on new build houses and in 3 years we never installed an outdoor boiler in a new build.


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    #11
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »

    To go one step further I would go further and say if you have an indoor central heating boiler such as gas or oil you may not rent out your property unless the central heating boiler is moved to outside of the property. Even if they are serviced once a year I still think they are too dangerous to have inside the house with the risk of fire, explosion, and potential carbon monoxide fumes - if your talking about tenants safety its far safer to have a boiler 'blow up' or catch fire or leak fumes if its outside of the house rather than if its inside the house in the living area!

    Totally unrealistic, impractical and unnecessary. Hundreds of thousands of people in this country are living safely and healthily with boilers inside their home. Where do you propose putting them in apartments?


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    #12
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    jlm29 wrote: »
    Aldi have smoke alarms and CO alarms this thur. Two smoke alarms for 9.99, and a CO for €19.99. Not sure about quality, but presumably they all have to live up to some basic standards anyhow!

    Thanks for the heads up - I suppose we better buy one of the CO alarms then.

    Its still not right I think the landlords should be made to supply and install them into the properties before the tenants move in. I think the RAS schemes and private landlords requirements all needs updating these days now in ireland to better benefit the tenants safety than it is already.

    I personally would hate to be a landlord and have a tenant or family injured or die just because I hadnt put adequate alarms to alert my tenants to danger of fire or carbon monoxide poisoning - I would hate to have their death on my concious!
    Rhett Important Furnace wrote: »
    Most of your post is total overkill but this is particular nonsense. Outdoor boilers are almost unheard off nowadays all new builds have indoor boilers for many years now.

    I worked in construction part time during college always on new build houses and in 3 years we never installed an outdoor boiler in a new build.

    Well let me tell you what I have seen in my part of the country for the last 10 or so years - all new builds with kerosene oil central heating boilers outside!

    Now, dont forget i was mentioning my oil boiler which is old now (on the Date Label manufactured 1998) - I am presuming the later boilers have more safety features and cut-outs built into them than the old type boilers?

    And i still stand by what I say if a boiler leakes fumes its going to be safer for the occupants of a dwelling to be leaking the fumes into the outside air atmosphere than inside the dwelling!


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Well let me tell you what I have seen in my part of the country for the last 10 or so years - all new builds with kerosene oil central heating boilers outside!

    Now, dont forget i was mentioning my oil boiler which is old now (on the Date Label manufactured 1998) - I am presuming the later boilers have more safety features and cut-outs built into them than the old type boilers?

    And i still stand by what I say if a boiler leakes fumes its going to be safer for the occupants of a dwelling to be leaking the fumes into the outside air atmosphere than inside the dwelling!

    It was all kerosene boilers which were installed and always in the utility rooms or kitchens.

    A few friends have just finished their new builds in the last few month and all have indoor kerosene boilers. I don't know of any house built in the last 10 to 15 years which has an outdoor boiler either gas or kerosene. There are 200 houses in the estate I rent in in all build in the last 25 years and every single one has an indoor boiler.

    As mentioned above what do you propose for apartments, every apartment has an indoor boiler.


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    #14
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Rhett Important Furnace wrote: »
    It was all kerosene boilers which were installed and always in the utility rooms or kitchens.

    A few friends have just finished their new builds in the last few month and all have indoor kerosene boilers. I don't know of any house built in the last 10 to 15 years which has an outdoor boiler either gas or kerosene. There are 200 houses in the estate I rent in in all build in the last 25 years and every single one has an indoor boiler.

    As mentioned above what do you propose for apartments, every apartment has an indoor boiler.

    I dont have any answers about apartments , sorry im not in the building trade I dont have a solution for that.

    So are we to concede that its just as safe to have a central heating boiler inside the property with risks of leaks of kerosene (boilers have rubber pipes carrying kerosene oil to the burner that can split) and then CO gasses escaping from the exhaust/chimney or if exhaust/chimney gets blocked or outside air vent gets blocked the CO gasses right into the room where you are sitting. If vented central heating and the vent in the header tank gets blocked then you can have potential of boiler exploding under pressure (yes I know modern systems have pressure rekief valves and cut outs to avoid this) but explode in the room your sitting in.

    It is for these reasons of fire risk, CO gasses, and explosion that I still stand by what I say and that is that I still think its safer for boilers to b e placed outside the house. No the things i say about them catching fire and leaking CO gas and exploding are regular occcurances but it does happen all the same - and let me tell you if it happens to happen with our boiler at any time i would rather it happen to a boiler outside of the house rather than inside the house.

    But as normal im entitled to my opinion as you are entitled to yours. Maybe your more qualified to answer and if you think its just as safe to put boilers inside the house then so be it, im not arguing about it, I am just saying what I think and that is that a boiler is safer if its placed outside in the open rather than if its inside the house/property


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    #15
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod Note:


    You'll find the plumbing and heating forum here if you want to discuss the boiler issue in further detail thanks. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1320


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    #16
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Mod Note:


    You'll find the plumbing and heating forum here if you want to discuss the boiler issue in further detail thanks. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1320

    ok sorry I went off topic.

    So yes anyway back to the topic I think if Landlords are going to rent out a property in Ireland which has an indoor boiler or open fire or any fuel burning appliance they should be made by law to supply and fit a carbon monoxide detector in every room which has a fuel burning appliance or boiler


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    #17
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    ok sorry I went off topic.

    So yes anyway back to the topic I think if Landlords are going to rent out a property in Ireland which has an indoor boiler or open fire or any fuel burning appliance they should be made by law to supply and fit a carbon monoxide detector in every room which has a fuel burning appliance or boiler

    Not required by law http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,33422,en.pdf


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    #18
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Smoke detection is covered by Technical Guidance Document Part B and the CO detection is covered by Technical Guidance Document Part J.

    But these building regulations only kick in when works, alterations or extensions are carried out.

    If you install a new boiler then CO detection is required.


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    #19
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Smoke detectors are required by law in all rented properties, CO monitors are not


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    #20
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    kceire wrote: »
    Smoke detection is covered by Technical Guidance Document Part B and the CO detection is covered by Technical Guidance Document Part J.

    But these building regulations only kick in when works, alterations or extensions are carried out.

    If you install a new boiler then CO detection is required.

    Thats one of the silliest thing about it all though isnt it, because with a new boiler the seals and everything is more likely going to be less of a leak than an old boiler and a new boiler is going to be safer .... but the regulations say CO detection isnt required for old boilers - crazy law!
    athtrasna wrote: »
    Smoke detectors are required by law in all rented properties, CO monitors are not

    it looks like the UK think they should be required by law seeing as this new law comes into force in october in the UK. Hope Ireland will follow in the logic. Its tragic when you hear over hear of someone dying from carbon monoxide poisening I have heard of 3 cases in Ireland already in the 20 odd years I have lived here, and I am sure there are more I just havent heard about.


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    #21
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Thats one of the silliest thing about it all though isnt it, because with a new boiler the seals and everything is more likely going to be less of a leak than an old boiler and a new boiler is going to be safer .... but the regulations say CO detection isnt required for old boilers - crazy law!



    it looks like the UK think they should be required by law seeing as this new law comes into force in october in the UK. Hope Ireland will follow in the logic. Its tragic when you hear over hear of someone dying from carbon monoxide poisening I have heard of 3 cases in Ireland already in the 20 odd years I have lived here, and I am sure there are more I just havent heard about.

    Just because they have a law in England doesn't mean it has to be made a law in ireland.


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    #22
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Just because they have a law in England doesn't mean it has to be made a law in ireland.

    i know - but its no harm to look at what other countries implement and why they have chosen to do it, just in the same case where other countries have looked at Ireland and have followed suite


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    #23
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    If the house doesn't have one , buy one yourself, they're not hugely expensive. <mod snip>


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    #24
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    Off topic posts deleted. No more warnings


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    #25
    wytch
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭wytch


    Andy From Sligo, you say you are renting, you should see out your lease and look for somewhere else that meets your standards. I bet it won't be the same price as you pay now. Also you should look for a property with gas fired central heating. Gas installations are very heavily regulated. And the new 2014 domestic gas regulations have carbon monoxide alarms very well covered. Safety is not cheap but well worth the expense if one can afford it.


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    #26
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    wytch wrote: »
    Andy From Sligo, you say you are renting, you should see out your lease and look for somewhere else that meets your standards. I bet it won't be the same price as you pay now. Also you should look for a property with gas fired central heating. Gas installations are very heavily regulated. And the new 2014 domestic gas regulations have carbon monoxide alarms very well covered. Safety is not cheap but well worth the expense if one can afford it.

    I have no desire to move out of the place i am in at the moment - if however the landlord fancies installing a carbon monoxide and some up to date smoke detectors (mains operated with battery backup) ..... and possibly removes the outdated boiler inside the house and puts in a nice modern efficient condenser type boiler outside I will be more than happy :) - I dont ask for a lot out of life am easily pleased :)


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    #27
    Jen44
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Jen44


    just got co2 detector in woodies for 25 euro!


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    #28
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Jen44 wrote: »
    just got co2 detector in woodies for 25 euro!

    Think you mean CO ;) At least I hope you do or the alarm will be set off by exhaling.


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    #29
    Jen44
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Jen44


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Think you mean CO ;) At least I hope you do or the alarm will be set off by exhaling.


    yep thats the one! :)


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    #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I have no desire to move out of the place i am in at the moment - if however the landlord fancies installing a carbon monoxide and some up to date smoke detectors (mains operated with battery backup) ..... and possibly removes the outdated boiler inside the house and puts in a nice modern efficient condenser type boiler outside I will be more than happy :) - I dont ask for a lot out of life am easily pleased :)

    Why the need for mains smoke alarms? Just buy yourself a few cheap battery ones and put them around your house if you want lots of alarms. Just check the batterys regularly.

    I'm perfectly happy with battery operated alarm in the downstairs hallway and upstairs landing which were in the house when I moved in. Even in my home house we only have two battery alarms and that's our own house.


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    #31
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Rhett Important Furnace wrote: »
    Why the need for mains smoke alarms? Just buy yourself a few cheap battery ones and put them around your house if you want lots of alarms. Just check the batterys regularly.

    Because tenants (especially poorer or stupider ones) have a habit of taking the batteries out and putting them into the kids toys. Or just taking them out when they chirrp and not putting them back.

    I kid you not, it happens often.

    That's why governments tend to require mains-powered alarms with battery backup.


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