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BBC article about Dev

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    #2
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Nothing too suprising in this but informative for a short article

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12848272
    Big deal, didn't Dev intern the IRA etc


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    #3
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I read Terry DeValera's memoirs and during WWII DeValera was also afraid that he and his family would be assasinated and Terry was enrolled in the FCA and theyhad guns etc at the family home.

    If you compare the outcome for Ireland versus other countries granted independence or created after WWI we did alright to survive.

    If you look at the Christmas Raid of 1939 on the Magazine Fort in Phoenix Park the countrymay have not been in a position to handle a British Invasion.

    The Christmas Raid

    The term Christmas Raid is a name used within the folklore of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) to describe the theft of a huge quantity of weapons and ammunition from the Regular Irish Army's ammunition Magazine Fort storage depot in Dublin'�s Phoenix Park.


    The raid took place on 23 December 1939, and was immediately prior to the passing of the Emergency Powers Act in Ireland.


    A total of 1,084,000 rounds of ammunition were taken and removed in thirteen lorries with no casualties or hindrance.


    The ammunition didn't remain at large long, however. On 1 January 1940 it was reported that almost three quarters of the ammunition had been recovered - a total of 850,000 rounds -


    Two and a half tons were seized in Dundalk, County Louth

    Eight tons in Swords, County Dublin,

    Sixty-six cases of Thompsons and ammunition in South Armagh (2 and a half tons captured by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)),

    One hundred crates containing 120,000 rounds in Straffan, County Kildare.


    The raid had turned into another disaster for the IRA to contend with. The volume of material stolen, and the massive hunt to recover it that followed turned up all the stolen ammunition and weapons plus more, along with the IRA volunteers attempting to store it. The positive effect on morale that the raid had made evaporated. The day after the raid the Irish Minister for Justice, Gerald Boland, at an emergency session of the Dail introduced the Emergency Powers bill to reinstate internment, Military Tribunal, and executions for IRA members. It was rushed through and given its third reading the next day creating the Emergency Powers Act.

    http://www.abandonedireland.com/pf.html


    So no- DeV didn't single out the IRA they were a bit out of control.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Raid


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    #4
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Here is the radio programme behind the article :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00zsd10/Document_28_03_2011


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    #5
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I must listen to it.

    Is it any good and I wonder if the Anglo Irish Trade talks in the preceeding years changed DeV's views.

    They probably do not mention that DeV was unsure as to who would win the war .


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    #6
    brianthelion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭brianthelion


    I dont understand why it has taken so long for the people of Ireland to realise that Dev was colluding with the Brits since they saved his life in 1916,He was the only leader who was not shot.Some say thats because he was an American...Bollox, Its because he cried like a baby and agreed to do anything for the Brits if they saved his life yes he sucked in the nation alright wait until 2016 s papers are revealed


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    #7
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    It's pretty much what you would expect. Tim Pat Coogan, Mark Hull (author of Irish Secrets), David Donoghue (Hitler's Irish Voices) and a few others. All put together at the usual bbc sort of competency level. The only new part really was where it covered the deValera involvement in the attempted communist smear on Russell, and if I heard it right the fact that it was DeValera who had sent Russell to the USSR in the first place. The rest more or less is common knowledge. One thing I did not know related to the bombing campaign in britain - that one of the high casualty-rate bombs was supposedly the result of the IRA man knowing the bomb was faulty and abandoning it rather than continuing on to his target (power station I believe). He left it parked on the side of the road where it exploded killing 5 people and injuring many more. I had never really considered it but always presumed the campaign had gone according to plan.
    CDfm wrote: »
    They probably do not mention that DeV was unsure as to who would win the war .

    No one knew who was going to win the war so I doubt that needed to be mentioned in any event.


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    #8
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    brianthelion wrote: »
    I dont understand why it has taken so long for the people of Ireland to realise that Dev was colluding with the Brits since they saved his life in 1916....... wait until 2016 s papers are revealed

    Do you think the thread will run for 5 years then.

    Do you have any other evidence we could look at now.


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    #9
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Morlar wrote: »
    It's pretty much what you would expect. Tim Pat Coogan, Mark Hull (author of Irish Secrets), David Donoghue (Hitler's Irish Voices) and a few others. All put together at the usual bbc sort of competency level.

    Exactly - nothing much new here and from a historical point of view what gets passed over is the complexity of it all from Dev's - and Ireland's - point of view. The Irish gov including Dev and others were always conscious of how it might be possible to make the border disappear - and, forging political stability that would ensure the permanence of the new Irish Free State. Shaking hands with the devil might be part of it. It was a highly complex and nuanced game that had to played.

    For that generation the border was pretty much on the front burner - even if there were no obvious solutions. Deals, bargains were always to be in the political air. When Lemass first went into the Dail one of his first statements was about FF being first a 'Republican' party - I quote:"Before anything we are a Republican party" - with aims for a united Ireland. Nowadays that kind of open talk is considered to be manifestly radical.

    Looking back at this length it seems to be difficult for some people to even imagine what the attitude to the border was from that generation who lived through its creation. In my personal experience they never accepted it as anything but a temporary measure. They would make jokes about the border running through fields with single owners having land on both sides.

    Also the Irish government's problem with the IRA came more from American money than any Soviet threat.
    Morlar wrote: »
    No one knew who was going to win the war so I doubt that needed to be mentioned in any event.

    My sentiment exactly. No one ever knows what the outcome of any war is going to be. Alliances shift along those doubts.


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    #10
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Just a quick question.

    What type of US organisation evolved and did it differ in any way from the pre-independence one.

    Were there different factions ?

    Who were its/their leaders ?


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    #11
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Just a quick question.

    What type of US organisation evolved and did it differ in any way from the pre-independence one.

    Were there different factions ?

    Who were its/their leaders ?

    There seems to have been little difference from the pre-independence period. Clann na Gael was still very active and individual States had Irish groups that supported the IRA with funds and even with written appeals to the Dail to be tolerant of the IRA. You can get more info on this in Tim Pat Coogan's "The IRA" book. I remember reading Coogan saying that the American-Irish thought of the IRA split with FF as being little more than a family row.


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    #12
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    MarchDub wrote: »
    For that generation the border was pretty much on the front burner - even if there were no obvious solutions. Deals, bargains were always to be in the political air. When Lemass first went into the Dail one of his first statements was about FF being first a 'Republican' party - I quote:"Before anything we are a Republican party" - with aims for a united Ireland. Nowadays that kind of open talk is considered to be manifestly radical.
    .
    That type of comment has been expressed by many FF leaders since but is seen as rhetorical rather than being something that they are going to militarily seek. The slogan 'the republican party' is still used commonly without being radical IMO.
    MarchDub wrote: »
    I remember reading Coogan saying that the American-Irish thought of the IRA split with FF as being little more than a family row.
    .
    What era do you mean. I always thought from the late 30's to present they were never close.


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    #13
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    That type of comment has been expressed by many FF leaders since but is seen as rhetorical rather than being something that they are going to militarily seek. The slogan 'the republican party' is still used commonly without being radical IMO.

    Lemass's fuller statement would actually be quite radical IMO for today's FF - Quote: "FF is a slightly constitutional party. We are open to the definition of a constitutional party but before anything we are a Republican party... our object is to establish a Republican government in Ireland. If that can be done by the present methods we have [constitutional methods] we will be very pleased, but if not we would not confine ourselves to them".

    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    What era do you mean. I always thought from the late 30's to present they were never close.

    Coogan was referring to the 1930s.


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