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Sister in a predicament - crisis pregnancy MOD NOTE IN OP PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

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  • 08-08-2020 10:40pm
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi all.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'm posting on behalf of my sister who has recently found herself in a crisis pregnancy. She recently attended a couple of house parties and consumed copious amounts of alcohol (before anyone tries to take the moral high ground regarding the house parties, please don't).


    She had sex with four different men at various stages over the past couple of weeks at various house parties. Unfortunately, she now realises that she is late and has a few consecutive positive pregnancy tests. All sexual acts were entirely consensual, she did admit to having a lot of drink took but was well within her senses. She just can't remember who one of the men was unfortunately.


    The thing is, she vividly remembers who three of the men are because they are either acquaintances and/or mutual acquaintances. The fourth man, she didn't know from Adam and can't recall his name. Please, don't try to berate her over her attendance at the house party or her lack of knowing who her sexual partner is. She has enough to worry about as it is.


    She is unsure who the father of the child may be. She wants to keep the child and she wants to contact the man who may be the father. Like I said, she vividly remembers who three of the four men were but can't recall who the fourth man was.


    Can someone give us advice and guidance as to what steps we should take next? Should we ask the three men she can recall for a paternity test? Can this be done prior to the birth by a blood sample from the mother? If it turns out that none of the three men are the father and it's the fourth unknown man then what next? Has anyone else been in this predicament before?


    All advice is appreciated. She is 20 and still lives in the family home. She hasn't told our parents yet. There's an age gap between us, I'm mid 30's and in my own place. We've hit a brick wall about what to do.


    Mod Note

    The OP has been clear on the advice they are seeking. Any posts running down the sister for having sex with multiple partners/attending a party during COVID and not addressing the OP's actual question will be actioned.

    Thanks

    HS


Comments

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    #2
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭Augme


    You can do a paternity test during pregnancy. The men don't have to consent to it though if they don't want to. So obviously the first step is to contact the men you do know.

    My advice would be to contact them one after the other and wait for the results for the first one to comeback before contacting the next one etc.

    Also, it is very important she follows up with a full STI tests as well for the health of the baby.


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    #3
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Pregnancy tests can offer a high degree of accuracy as to when conception took place these days. She should be able to eliminate one or two of the men based on this.

    At least that cuts down a proportion of the hassle.


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    #4
    Denny61
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Denny61


    Tell your sister to immediately go and get a STD test as these guys could have had sex with multiple females and certain STDS can have serious long term issues.ie...fertility problems..urinary tract infections which can be very painful over weeks months and possibly years..


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    #5
    Shelli2
    Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭Shelli2


    There are online conception calculators which can help narrow down the actual date of conception, and while they are not 100% accurate they should at least give you an idea of the likelihood of which man is the father, and a good starting point to start contacting and requesting paternity tests.

    A visit to a doctor as soon as possible also. I suggest you go with her for support if you can.


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    #6
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    She's lucky to have your support.

    There's a big difference between 4 guys in one weekend and 4 guys over a number of weeks. If it's the latter, does she know the date of her last period? She can work it back from there if the encounters are spread out. Start the test on the most likely option and only move to the next if the first is eliminated and so on.

    As others have mentioned, she needs to get an STI test, no more uncomfortable than a smear test and needs to be done.


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    #7
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Visit the GP is the first port of call.And yes, bring yourself if needed for support.Appointments are free throughout the pregnancy if she goes for combined care.

    I would just tell the doctor it is a crisis pregnancy by the way, because most GPs will ask is it planned anyway.Just for information, not judgement, if it is a crisis pregnancy, your sister might need a bit of extra support and the GP will want to know that if needed.

    As regards the father, if it was over a few weeks she should be able to work backwards roughly to the most likely candidates.Paternity tests can be taken.The GP or maternity hospital can advise her on all of these things, I would imagine.


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    #8
    Loveinapril
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Loveinapril


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Pregnancy tests can offer a high degree of accuracy as to when conception took place these days. She should be able to eliminate one or two of the men based on this.

    At least that cuts down a proportion of the hassle.

    Sperm can live inside a woman for up to 5 days and depending on the frequency and length of her period, the numbers could be way off. I was using ovulation sticks and took note of all the days I could have conceived with my two children but the actual dates didn't match because of either early/ late ovulation.
    I agree with Augme in that she should eliminate one by one as opposed to just having them all test. She is very lucky to have someone like you supporting her, she must be in such a mess.
    A quick Google shows the test can be around €1000 so they are not cheap!


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    #9
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    See if she can narrow down her cycle dates. If she has that you might be able to rule out one or two of them.

    Having said that, it is hard to pinpoint an exact conception date because it's more like a window of several days given that sperm can live up to 5 days. The egg lives for 12 hrs so the sperm waits for it in the fallopian tubes.

    If she's managed to narrow it down, then she can look into paternity tests. Firstly though she'll need STI checking - there's rare but nasty ones that could cause harm to a baby if left untreated. So she needs to get that sorted as a priority.


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    #10
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Is there any way the date of conception can be narrowed down? This would hopefully eliminate one or more candidates who would need to give a sample for paternity testing.

    As others have pointed out, your sister is going to have to get tested for STD's. Unfortunately, I think all four men are going to have to be informed as they too should be getting STD checks.


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    #11
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,671 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Ask other people at the parties who they think she bagged. Compare answers to define suspects.

    Yes it will be embarrassing.

    But its the only way to identify No 4.


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    #12
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,357 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    Go to your GP and make sure that she has all the help she needs with antenatal classes , preparing for the new arrival etc.
    Not much you can do apart from asking people from the party who the other fella was.
    When the baby is born then you can see about testing and all .
    And please don’t let some eejit think he’s the father only to break his heart with a paternity test later .


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    #13
    dartboardio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    Sorry she's found herself in this situation. Definitely get paternity tests from all of the men you know of.

    For the last man that she's unaware of, it could be a case of tough luck if she really doesn't know who he is..

    I had a friend who got into something similar except it was with 2 men, two different one night stands a couple of weeks apart.

    She never seen the second man ever again, didn't even know his name. He now has a 5 year old daughter he's unaware of.


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    #14
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,357 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    dartboardio wrote: »
    Sorry she's found herself in this situation. Definitely get paternity tests from all of the men you know of.

    For the last man that she's unaware of, it could be a case of tough luck if she really doesn't know who he is..

    I had a friend who got into something similar except it was with 2 men, two different one night stands a couple of weeks apart.

    She never seen the second man ever again, didn't even know his name. He now has a 5 year old daughter he's unaware of.

    Get prenatal paternity tests from 4 men ?

    https://www.easydna.co.uk/prenatal-paternity-test/?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvb75BRD1ARIsAP6LcquHGCvnxXGvqf0RMiBkDBrqttIXKbPeZRC6qcS5BoCChAn4FS78CRwaAtuuEALw_wcB

    Wait till the child is born and she’s found out who guy #4 is. Then see about testing all 4..
    If you can afford £860 x 4 for prenatal test fire ahead
    What good is it going to make to your sister in the next 9 months anyway?


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    #15
    dartboardio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    cj maxx wrote: »
    Get prenatal paternity tests from 4 men ?

    https://www.easydna.co.uk/prenatal-paternity-test/?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvb75BRD1ARIsAP6LcquHGCvnxXGvqf0RMiBkDBrqttIXKbPeZRC6qcS5BoCChAn4FS78CRwaAtuuEALw_wcB

    Wait till the child is born and she’s found out who guy #4 is. Then see about testing all 4..
    If you can afford £860 x 4 for prenatal test fire ahead
    What good is it going to make to your sister in the next 9 months anyway?

    I didn't say prenatal, you said that. Haha I wouldn't be familiar with how all of that works.

    How is OP sister supposed to get a 4th test if she doesn't even know who the man is?

    I'm sorry but usually in this situation, it stays a secret and the child ends up not knowing who the father is and that's just it. I've known a couple of people in similar situations whether they were the child or the mother.


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    #16
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,357 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    dartboardio wrote: »
    I didn't say prenatal, you said that. Haha I wouldn't be familiar with how all of that works.

    How is OP sister supposed to get a 4th test if she doesn't even know who the man is?

    I'm sorry but usually in this situation, it stays a secret and the child ends up not knowing who the father is and that's just it. I've known a couple of people in similar situations whether they were the child or the mother.

    But I said she should ask other party~goers if they know who he is , then start to narrow down possible fathers.
    You mentioned testing .
    Either way she is a single mother right now so she should concentrate on that right now


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    #17
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    She could start by asking people at the party that she knows if they know the guy she was with.

    As for the paternity part, like any other woman that is pregnant a lot of people don't announce the pregnancy until they've passed the 3 month mark due to the risk of miscarriage. Not wishing that on your sister, but maybe she should wait to start asking these guys for paternity tests until she is at a point in the pregnancy where the biggest risk has passed. In the meantime she can try and find out who the fourth guy was and figure out her dates to see if she can eliminate one or two of them.


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    #18
    Anonposter2020
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Anonposter2020


    A paternity test during pregnancy can cause miscarriage so it's not advisable. If there is enough time between partners and she can remember the dates then she may be able to narrow it down when she has her first scan. She might end up being a single mum and should prepare for that. She's not the first one to go through this and won't be the last. She'll be ok with your support and congratulations!


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    #19
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,357 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    Anonposter2020 wrote: »
    A paternity test during pregnancy can cause miscarriage so it's not advisable. If there is enough time between partners and she can remember the dates then she may be able to narrow it down when she has her first scan. She might end up being a single mum and should prepare for that. She's not the first one to go through this and won't be the last. She'll be ok with your support and congratulations!
    I think the test I posted is safe and non invasive, but at £800 odd I wouldn’t be doing too many I could help it


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    #20
    Anonposter2020
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Anonposter2020


    cj maxx wrote: »
    I think the test I posted is safe and non invasive, but at £800 odd I wouldn’t be doing too many I could help it

    No that's crazy money even if it's safe. She wants to keep her baby so should focus on looking after herself and the baby for now.


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    #21
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    This is an awful situation to have a sister in.
    The sooner those fellas are tracked down the better.
    I know she says that it was consentual but she mentions that she had taken/been given copious volumes of alcohol - in that case she may not have been capable of granting consent. I wonder if the Gardai were contacted along these lines could they help track down the 4th fella for ye? I don't think any young woman in the right sober frame of mind would consent to four fellas going at her. If she was drunk and them fellas were older, then there could be an element of persuation or cajoling involved in getting her to consent. Definitely have a chat with the Gardai about it. Maybe get your parents to have a word with a local female Garda about it informally to see what can be done.
    You neet to tell your parents about all this. They have a right to know what is going on. Imagine how they would feel if they just hear it back through neighbours and gossip that their daughter is pregnant and hasn't got a clue who it's for. They have a right and derserve to know the situation. Persuade her to tell them.


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    #22
    ibarelycare
    Registered Users Posts: 58,456 ✭✭✭✭ibarelycare


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    This is an awful situation to have a sister in.
    The sooner those fellas are tracked down the better.
    I know she says that it was consentual but she mentions that she had taken/been given copious volumes of alcohol - in that case she may not have been capable of granting consent. I wonder if the Gardai were contacted along these lines could they help track down the 4th fella for ye? I don't think any young woman in the right sober frame of mind would consent to four fellas going at her. If she was drunk and them fellas were older, then there could be an element of persuation or cajoling involved in getting her to consent. Definitely have a chat with the Gardai about it. Maybe get your parents to have a word with a local female Garda about it informally to see what can be done.
    You neet to tell your parents about all this. They have a right to know what is going on. Imagine how they would feel if they just hear it back through neighbours and gossip that their daughter is pregnant and hasn't got a clue who it's for. They have a right and derserve to know the situation. Persuade her to tell them.


    They were 4 separate nights.




    OP your poor sister. She's very lucky to have you. She has a tough road ahead of her but having someone like you to confide in and be a support to her will make it a million times easier. My advice would be to concentrate on getting herself checked, and having a healthy pregnancy and waiting until the baby is born to start finding out who the father is. She's decided to have the baby regardless of whether or not the father will be in the picture, so it's not going to make a huge difference to things at this stage and will no doubt cause lots of stress to her. Telling your parents will be difficult of course, but do they need to know about the 4 different guys (if that will be an issue)? IMO all they need to know for now is that she's pregnant and she had sex with someone and doesn't know who he is.


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    #23
    Loveinapril
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Loveinapril


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    This is an awful situation to have a sister in.
    The sooner those fellas are tracked down the better.
    I know she says that it was consentual but she mentions that she had taken/been given copious volumes of alcohol - in that case she may not have been capable of granting consent. I wonder if the Gardai were contacted along these lines could they help track down the 4th fella for ye? I don't think any young woman in the right sober frame of mind would consent to four fellas going at her. If she was drunk and them fellas were older, then there could be an element of persuation or cajoling involved in getting her to consent. Definitely have a chat with the Gardai about it. Maybe get your parents to have a word with a local female Garda about it informally to see what can be done.
    You neet to tell your parents about all this. They have a right to know what is going on. Imagine how they would feel if they just hear it back through neighbours and gossip that their daughter is pregnant and hasn't got a clue who it's for. They have a right and derserve to know the situation. Persuade her to tell them.

    Wow, that's a load of nonsense.
    The sister has cofirmed she gave consent. She also doesn't need to tell ANYONE! She has decided to confide in her brother which was obviously a good idea given his commitment to helping. This girl doesn't need to be slut shamed on top of everything else.


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    #24
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Where did I say anything about her being a slut or shaming her? You said that. It is a very misfortuante set of circumstances and the 4 guys behaved despicably towards her and disrespected her and now she is in this predicament and they, particularly anonymous guy number 4, are gone off into the sunset without a bull's notion of the problems they are causing and leaving behind them. If anyone ought to be shamed it is the fellas in this situation.

    My point is that, although she expressed consent, she may not have been legally capable of consenting because she had consumed that much alcohol. And if there is no legally valid and recognised consent then it is an assualt and rape.

    I think she, or the brother, or her mother, should get in touch with the Gardai to see if this can be used to track down the fourth guy. The sooner they are brought to task about it the better as I can guarantee you, any of these fellas (presumably in their early 20s) won't want to know of it and will all blame it on each other guys. I would not put it past them to deny everything refuse to do a test voluntarily until compelled to do so by a court order.

    If there is an out for a young fella from this they will take it, and in this case the potential out is having 3 other fellas to blame for it. The fella's parents will also deny - they are not going to want to pay maintenance or for him to have his future impaired by this.

    She is only 20. She is only young. I think she really needs to discuss something this serious with her parents. Assuming whatever fella is the father is similarly aged, I think the best course of action is for her parents to sit down and discuss it with the guy's parents and see can they agree something about maintenance and minding the child and so on. Obviously complicated by the fact that nobody knows which fella it is and until that cab be established as an undeniable fact, everyone is going to deny any responsibility for it.

    this is a complicated situation. I think there is zero chance of the 3 fellas doing a test voluntarily and they will all just blame the 4th unknown guy. Sure why would they, when they can all blame the unknown No. 4 and deny it all down to the ground.
    I think to get even 3 of them tested it is going to have to involve the Gardai, lawyers and a Court Order. I think even if a man refuses to undergo a test ordered by the courts then the court could rule that he is the father because they take the view that he may be refusing the test because he is afraid he might be the father. But how do you do with there being three or four potential fathers?

    Any how much credibility could be afforded to the assertions of a complainant/plaintiff that admits that they had consumed copious volumes of alcohol and were stocious drunk on all occasions. If they all, even No. 4 refuse to undergo a test, they could either, a) take the gamble and do a test hoping to God it'll be negative and clear their name or b) suggest the idea that there is another anonymous man, No. 5, and that the girl might not be able to remember him because of her drunkenness.


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    #25
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Where did I say anything about her being a slut or shaming her? You said that. It is a very misfortuante set of circumstances and the 4 guys behaved despicably towards her and disrespected her and now she is in this predicament and they, particularly anonymous guy number 4, are gone off into the sunset without a bull's notion of the problems they are causing and leaving behind them. If anyone ought to be shamed it is the fellas in this situation.

    My point is that, although she expressed consent, she may not have been legally capable of consenting because she had consumed that much alcohol. And if there is no legally valid and recognised consent then it is an assualt and rape.

    I think she, or the brother, or her mother, should get in touch with the Gardai to see if this can be used to track down the fourth guy. The sooner they are brought to task about it the better as I can guarantee you, any of these fellas (presumably in their early 20s) won't want to know of it and will all blame it on each other guys. I would not put it past them to deny everything refuse to do a test voluntarily until compelled to do so by a court order.

    If there is an out for a young fella from this they will take it, and in this case the potential out is having 3 other fellas to blame for it. The fella's parents will also deny - they are not going to want to pay maintenance or for him to have his future impaired by this.

    She is only 20. She is only young. I think she really needs to discuss something this serious with her parents. Assuming whatever fella is the father is similarly aged, I think the best course of action is for her parents to sit down and discuss it with the guy's parents and see can they agree something about maintenance and minding the child and so on. Obviously complicated by the fact that nobody knows which fella it is and until that cab be established as an undeniable fact, everyone is going to deny any responsibility for it.

    this is a complicated situation. I think there is zero chance of the 3 fellas doing a test voluntarily and they will all just blame the 4th unknown guy. Sure why would they, when they can all blame the unknown No. 4 and deny it all down to the ground.
    I think to get even 3 of them tested it is going to have to involve the Gardai, lawyers and a Court Order.

    You assumed the only way a woman could have sex with 4 people in quick succession was rape. She’s clear she consented and the men involved aren’t to blame for anything. Even having been drinking doesn’t mean she didn’t consent.


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    #26
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You assumed the only way a woman could have sex with 4 people in quick succession was rape. She’s clear she consented and the men involved aren’t to blame for anything. Even having been drinking doesn’t mean she didn’t consent.


    She may have given or verbalised a consent, but if profoundly drunk she might not have been capable, in a legal sense, of giving consent, therefore it might not have been a consentual act.
    Doesn't matter if it was one guy, 4 guys a week apart, or 4 guys at once. If the consent is not legally valid then there is no consent.
    One of them must be to blame for it surely. Perhaps blame is the wrong word....liable for the impact of what has happened.

    At think at this point, given that there are so many potential fathers, and all are likely to deny any involvement, refuse to cooperate and blame the others, it should be realised that proving paternity is going to be very challenging indeed. Therefore she should be assuming that she will be a single mother and base her decision making around that.


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    #27
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Mod note:
    TheBoyConor, your assertion that it was non-consentual is entirely of your own imagination. Rape is a very serious crime and rape accusations destroy lives. It is clear that the woman involved consented. She says she did. Her sibling posting here (who presumably knows her better than anyone) is confident that it was consensual.

    Drop the rape/gardai angle. It's advice that's not applicable.


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    #28
    lunamoon
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    She may have given or verbalised a consent, but if profoundly drunk she might not have been capable, in a legal sense, of giving consent, therefore it might not have been a consentual act.
    Doesn't matter if it was one guy, 4 guys a week apart, or 4 guys at once. If the consent is not legally valid then there is no consent.
    One of them must be to blame for it surely. Perhaps blame is the wrong word....liable for the impact of what has happened.

    At think at this point, given that there are so many potential fathers, and all are likely to deny any involvement, refuse to cooperate and blame the others, it should be realised that proving paternity is going to be very challenging indeed. Therefore she should be assuming that she will be a single mother and base her decision making around that.

    Why are you making this about consent and blaming someone? The OPs sister doesn't think she was raped and said she gave consent.


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    #29
    hi!
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭hi!


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Where did I say anything about her being a slut or shaming her? You said that. It is a very misfortuante set of circumstances and the 4 guys behaved despicably towards her and disrespected her and now she is in this predicament and they, particularly anonymous guy number 4, are gone off into the sunset without a bull's notion of the problems they are causing and leaving behind them. If anyone ought to be shamed it is the fellas in this situation.

    My point is that, although she expressed consent, she may not have been legally capable of consenting because she had consumed that much alcohol. And if there is no legally valid and recognised consent then it is an assualt and rape.

    I think she, or the brother, or her mother, should get in touch with the Gardai to see if this can be used to track down the fourth guy. The sooner they are brought to task about it the better as I can guarantee you, any of these fellas (presumably in their early 20s) won't want to know of it and will all blame it on each other guys. I would not put it past them to deny everything refuse to do a test voluntarily until compelled to do so by a court order.

    If there is an out for a young fella from this they will take it, and in this case the potential out is having 3 other fellas to blame for it. The fella's parents will also deny - they are not going to want to pay maintenance or for him to have his future impaired by this.

    She is only 20. She is only young. I think she really needs to discuss something this serious with her parents. Assuming whatever fella is the father is similarly aged, I think the best course of action is for her parents to sit down and discuss it with the guy's parents and see can they agree something about maintenance and minding the child and so on. Obviously complicated by the fact that nobody knows which fella it is and until that cab be established as an undeniable fact, everyone is going to deny any responsibility for it.

    this is a complicated situation. I think there is zero chance of the 3 fellas doing a test voluntarily and they will all just blame the 4th unknown guy. Sure why would they, when they can all blame the unknown No. 4 and deny it all down to the ground.
    I think to get even 3 of them tested it is going to have to involve the Gardai, lawyers and a Court Order. I think even if a man refuses to undergo a test ordered by the courts then the court could rule that he is the father because they take the view that he may be refusing the test because he is afraid he might be the father. But how do you do with there being three or four potential fathers?

    Any how much credibility could be afforded to the assertions of a complainant/plaintiff that admits that they had consumed copious volumes of alcohol and were stocious drunk on all occasions. If they all, even No. 4 refuse to undergo a test, they could either, a) take the gamble and do a test hoping to God it'll be negative and clear their name or b) suggest the idea that there is another anonymous man, No. 5, and that the girl might not be able to remember him because of her drunkenness.

    The girl was not disrespected or acted despicably towards. She is of legal age and consented. Women can have sex with how ever many people they want. She can get drunk if she wants. It’s the 21st century. Consuming alcohol does not mean she is incapable of consent. Yes maybe contraception should of be given more consideration but your comments are overreacting.


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    #30
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,927 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Mod Note

    I think the OP has got enough advice to go on here and as they haven't been back I think it's best it be left there.

    OP if you need the thread reopened just let one of the Mod Team know by PM.

    Thanks to all who offered help and advice.

    HS


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