Air Corps Availability

23-09-2018 11:37am

irishrgr wrote: »

Interesting the public and a charity has to stand up what has become a standard in most developed countries. HEMS is not new. This is long overdue and should be part of the EMS system in Ireland.

I dont understand it all. What is the difference between the operation in Athlone and in Cork?

Peregrine · 23-09-2018 11:51am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I dont understand it all. What is the difference between the operation in Athlone and in Cork?

Athlone is a HSE/Air Corps service. This is a civilian charity service. They're not uncommon. There are over a dozen of them in the UK. All HEMS in England and Wales are operated by charities. The only public one in the UK is the Scottish Air Ambulance Service.

I'm not arguing for one over the other and don't know the level of public finding the UK HEMS charities receive (if any). I'm not saying we should follow that model either. Just providing some background.

23-09-2018 12:00pm

I was just trying to understand what Irishrgr said earlier about the charity having to start the operation.

irishrgr wrote: »

Interesting the public and a charity has to stand up what has become a standard in most developed countries. HEMS is not new. This is long overdue and should be part of the EMS system in Ireland.

This operation has been started in Cork but Athlone already doing the same thing?

Is there a need for overlap?

Im not a pilot so someone can correct me on the operational details but isnt Athlone a far better base for this than Cork, being able to easily reach the entire country.

irishrgr · 23-09-2018 1:40pm

As regards the question above, EMS in Ireland is provided by the government (HSE & DFB) as a public service. I submit HEMS is a logical extension of this and should be integrated into the EMS system. IE, the HEMS should be the responsibility of the govt, not a charity. I am well aware the HSE struggles to meet basic EMS functions in part of the county, let alone provide HEMS. I'm not against the charity based system, I just feel strongly that essential public services should be provided by the govt. Letting a charity do it is a cop out.
The current model of using the Air Corps seem to work as an interim, but doesn't seem to be a long term solution. HEMS requires dedicated crews, aircraft & bases. Interesting, as a sidebar, there is a physician on the crew. In the US the model is mostly Nurse/Paramedic or just two paramedics. While doctors bring exceptional capability, that seems expensive compared to advanced paramedics.

Psychlops · 23-09-2018 10:14pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I was just trying to understand what Irishrgr said earlier about the charity having to start the operation.

This operation has been started in Cork but Athlone already doing the same thing?

Is there a need for overlap?

Im not a pilot so someone can correct me on the operational details but isnt Athlone a far better base for this than Cork, being able to easily reach the entire country.

When the EAS was started it was originally designed to serve the West of Ireland, this will hopefully free it up for that again, either way it is a win win, you now have 4 Irish Coast Guard S92's, 1 Irish Air Corps AW139 & 1 Charity A109 serving the Nation for HEMS etc, brilliant stuff.

roadmaster · 31-12-2018 5:44pm

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-air-corps-carry-out-over-300-air-ambulance-missions-in-2018-37669935.html

A very busy year for the 139s as per the indo article. The review that was carried out I believed favored leaving things as they are at the moment for the EAS but is it sustainable for the future for the air corps in terms of crew and aircraft?

Negative_G · 31-12-2018 6:29pm

roadmaster wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-air-corps-carry-out-over-300-air-ambulance-missions-in-2018-37669935.html

A very busy year for the 139s as per the indo article. The review that was carried out I believed favored leaving things as they are at the moment for the EAS but is it sustainable for the future for the air corps in terms of crew and aircraft?

Status Quo will prevail.

Easy win for the politicians.

roadmaster · 31-12-2018 7:30pm

Negative_G wrote: »

Status Quo will prevail.

Easy win for the politicians.

That’s the Moto I think of the irish state . Only react when something goes wrong and then consider doing something !

roadmaster · 04-01-2019 11:25pm

I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route

Negative_G · 05-01-2019 2:41am

roadmaster wrote: »

I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route

The ATR, being a civil aircraft will fly straight through the UK FIR. assuming it was short notice, and AC heli may have had to route via Ballyshannon/finner on the way To/from. 180/200kts+ versions 150/160kts.

Psychlops · 06-01-2019 7:32pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route

It wasn't the EAS bird from Athlone, it was the Inter Hospital Duty 139 from Bal.

Psychlops · 06-01-2019 7:33pm

Negative_G wrote: »

The ATR, being a civil aircraft will fly straight through the UK FIR. assuming it was short notice, and AC heli may have had to route via Ballyshannon/finner on the way To/from. 180/200kts+ versions 150/160kts.

SAR has no border, same for mercy missions, they pretty much go direct ive seen this before on FR24.

From what I know, they have diplomatic clearance, same as IRCG so its no issue.

Negative_G · 06-01-2019 11:31pm

Psychlops wrote: »

SAR has no border, same for mercy missions, they pretty much go direct ive seen this before on FR24.

From what I know, they have diplomatic clearance, same as IRCG so its no issue.

A patient transfer isn't "SAR" and is generally preplanned to some degree, "SAR" generally is not.

I will refrain from going into specifics, but a state aircraft cannot just enter the territory of another nation on a whim with no clearance. The "SAR" aircraft are operated and flown by civilians, they might perform similar roles at times but there are significant differences from a diplomatic perspective.

Of course there are agreements in place to facilitate these type of missions but they must still tick the boxes regardless of the amount of planning.

Psychlops · 06-01-2019 11:41pm

Of course there are.

Stovepipe · 06-01-2019 11:49pm

The system for getting clearance is pretty finely tuned and is down to a matter of minutes, in some cases. Both Govts, Irish and UK, will move heaven and earth to clear aircraft across borders, if they have to, especially if human life is at risk or if there is a military or police imperative. It would be extremely rare for either side to refuse passage. Both countries meet for security briefings often enough, that it has long been decided as a matter of protocol.

Negative_G · 07-01-2019 12:16am

Stovepipe wrote: »

The system for getting clearance is pretty finely tuned and is down to a matter of minutes, in some cases. Both Govts, Irish and UK, will move heaven and earth to clear aircraft across borders, if they have to, especially if human life is at risk or if there is a military or police imperative. It would be extremely rare for either side to refuse passage. Both countries meet for security briefings often enough, that it has long been decided as a matter of protocol.

Correct. There are people in various government depts who are on call on a 24/7 basis to facilitate this type of operation.

My point (generally) was that it isn't a case of "having an agreement" which allows carte blanche entry to a foreign jurisdiction. Each requirement to enter the UK (for example) requires a unique application which has to be approved on a case by case basis.

jonnybigwallet · 10-01-2019 10:03pm

Agree 110%

jonnybigwallet · 10-01-2019 10:03pm

Agree 110%

roadmaster · 11-01-2019 11:51am

Psychlops wrote: »

It wasn't the EAS bird from Athlone, it was the Inter Hospital Duty 139 from Bal.

is that aircraft just for patient transfer or is it available for anything as so directed by the government

roadmaster · 24-01-2019 12:52pm

i was listening to the former head of EU customs on the radio this morning and he was saving that for commercial vehicles you would have designated routes for them to cross the border . You are not going to be able to man all crossings and ensure trucks are not going through the unmanned ones.

Aerial observation would come in handy to help enforce this so could we see finner camps runway reopened and cessnas based there for border patrols. But are the Cessnas even flying anymore and would there be enough crews to carry out patrols. It would be a while before the 3 PC12's are in place and i would imagine the cessnas would be a lot cheaper to run for this type of work

cameramonkey · 24-01-2019 5:14pm

roadmaster wrote: »

i was listening to the former head of EU customs on the radio this morning and he was saving that for commercial vehicles you would have designated routes for them to cross the border . You are not going to be able to man all crossings and ensure trucks are not going through the unmanned ones.

Aerial observation would come in handy to help enforce this so could we see finner camps runway reopened and cessnas based there for border patrols. But are the Cessnas even flying anymore and would there be enough crews to carry out patrols. It would be a while before the 3 PC12's are in place and i would imagine the cessnas would be a lot cheaper to run for this type of work

saw a 172 flying out of Casement Wednesday.

Psychlops · 24-01-2019 9:59pm

roadmaster wrote: »

i was listening to the former head of EU customs on the radio this morning and he was saving that for commercial vehicles you would have designated routes for them to cross the border . You are not going to be able to man all crossings and ensure trucks are not going through the unmanned ones.

Aerial observation would come in handy to help enforce this so could we see finner camps runway reopened and cessnas based there for border patrols. But are the Cessnas even flying anymore and would there be enough crews to carry out patrols. It would be a while before the 3 PC12's are in place and i would imagine the cessnas would be a lot cheaper to run for this type of work

The majority have been stripped, I heard ROMEO203 the other day, I would guess maybe 1 or 2 at max of the Rocket fleet is still flying.

One PC12 is scheduled for delivery this year I believe.

Psychlops · 24-01-2019 10:00pm

roadmaster wrote: »

is that aircraft just for patient transfer or is it available for anything as so directed by the government

Im not 100% but they did have a 139 on 24/7 standby at Bal for Inter-Hospital transfers.

Psychlops · 27-01-2019 12:22am

Check this out, seems only ROMEO203/205/208 are left?

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82957

sparky42 · 27-01-2019 12:24am

Psychlops wrote: »

Check this out, seems only ROMEO203/205/208 are left?

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82957

Wonder have the others been used for parts to keep those in the air?

Stovepipe · 30-01-2019 11:34pm

Dont forget the Garda Defender is active for surveillance work, just because the PC 12 s are not available yet.

roadmaster · 30-01-2019 11:36pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Dont forget the Garda Defender is active for surveillance work, just because the PC 12 s are not available yet.

Is it not parked up as well?

Negative_G · 31-01-2019 12:29am

Stovepipe wrote: »

Dont forget the Garda Defender is active for surveillance work, just because the PC 12 s are not available yet.

Are the Dept of justice purchasing a PC-12? Perhaps you could enlighten us more?

For the record, your post seems to suggest that the Defender is only still in service due to the lack of PC-12s. The PC-12 contract is completely separate from any potential Garda FW replacement aircraft.

While there was an option of a fourth "green aircraft" for the DoJ in the tender, this has not been publicly accepted. So perhaps you have other information, otherwise I struggle to see what your point is.

sparky42 · 31-01-2019 12:36am

Negative_G wrote: »

Are the Dept of justice purchasing a PC-12? Perhaps you could enlighten us more?

I think as part of the tender, there's an option that the DoJ could buy a fourth one, but I don't think there's been any sign of that yet? But given that we've a few more years for the last of the AC ones there might still be time.

Negative_G · 31-01-2019 12:43am

sparky42 wrote: »

I think as part of the tender, there's an option that the DoJ could buy a fourth one, but I don't think there's been any sign of that yet? But given that we've a few more years for the last of the AC ones there might still be time.

Correct.

I am just struggling to see the relevance of Stovepipes post to be honest.

roadmaster · 31-01-2019 9:56am

I see on on air corps Facebook page 112 had 9 missions in 7 days. The 139 fleet must be starting to clock up big hours due to ems alone

Stovepipe · 31-01-2019 2:58pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Is it not parked up as well?

No. Flew right over my house a day ago......it's the only AC aircraft with a surveillance kit fitted and will stay that way until the PC-12s arrive. I have no idea if one of them will be given over to Garda use, but, as the Defender has had a very poor serviceability record, it may well be the case that a PC-12 will take over from it. I have heard from users that it is not liked and it would happily be shunted aside. The Cessnas are essentially on borrowed time, too.

Negative_G · 31-01-2019 7:55pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

No. Flew right over my house a day ago......it's the only AC aircraft with a surveillance kit fitted and will stay that way until the PC-12s arrive. I have no idea if one of them will be given over to Garda use, but, as the Defender has had a very poor serviceability record, it may well be the case that a PC-12 will take over from it. I have heard from users that it is not liked and it would happily be shunted aside. The Cessnas are essentially on borrowed time, too.

Unless the Gardai purchase their own aircraft, a PC-12 won't be "given over" to the ASU. If they want to request its use ad-hoc then they can do that in line with ATCP agreements.

The tender allows for the Gardai to piggyback on the PC-12 order which makes complete sense for a multitude of reasons. As of yet there has been no public decision about it.

Stovepipe · 31-01-2019 8:38pm

They could well order a Garda PC-12, provided the DoJ was prepared to cough up to buy it and maintain it. Right now, availability of personnel is more critical than airframes.

roadmaster · 16-11-2019 6:22pm

As per the article below the air corps are pulling back on some off the 112 service, Will we see the government farm this service out to someone like CHC?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/air-ambulance-service-scaled-back-due-to-pilot-shortage-1.4084496?mode=amp0

Psychlops · 16-11-2019 7:57pm

roadmaster wrote: »

As per the article below the air corps are pulling back on some off the 112 service, Will we see the government farm this service out to someone like CHC?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/air-ambulance-service-scaled-back-due-to-pilot-shortage-1.4084496?mode=amp0

ICRR & IRCG are now filling the days that the EAS is not available.

roadmaster · 16-11-2019 8:17pm

Psychlops wrote: »

ICRR & IRCG are now filling the days that the EAS is not available.

I mean long term. It would be easyier for the government to sign a cheque to a private company rather then have a state service

Larbre34 · 17-11-2019 12:26am

I never heard anything as pathetic as Paul Kehoe's snivelling diatribe on Radio1 at lunchtime. Its simply risible that an defence force air component cannot provide ONE serviceable aircraft on station at all times.

But anyway, as we are here, it is past time to remove the Air Corps role in the civilian medical response function. The airborne rescue and medical airlift capability on land and in the maritime area of responsibility should be provided fully by civilian services and contractors. They should all be 24/7 capable aircraft and crews with a top drawer service level agreement put in place by the health and transport and marine authorities, subject to rigorous performance standards and contract review.

Let the Air Corps focus solely on being the air transport, patrol and interception arm of the military.

While I think of it, the Ministerial Air Transport Service, fixed wing and rotary, should be a separate civilian contract also.

roadmaster · 17-11-2019 9:48am

Larbre34 wrote: »

I never heard anything as pathetic as Paul Kehoe's snivelling diatribe on Radio1 at lunchtime. Its simply risible that an defence force air component cannot provide ONE serviceable aircraft on station at all times.

But anyway, as we are here, it is past time to remove the Air Corps role in the civilian medical response function. The airborne rescue and medical airlift capability on land and in the maritime area of responsibility should be provided fully by civilian services and contractors. They should all be 24/7 capable aircraft and crews with a top drawer service level agreement put in place by the health and transport and marine authorities, subject to rigorous performance standards and contract review.

Let the Air Corps focus solely on being the air transport, patrol and interception arm of the military.

While I think of it, the Ministerial Air Transport Service, fixed wing and rotary, should be a separate civilian contract also.

That was one bad interview, he comes a across as the most incompetent clown that knows nothing. You would wonder how he kept getting re-elected in Wexford he must be some man for filling potholes and getting grants

Morpheus · 18-11-2019 10:20am

This happened with the SAR role. now we fork out 50m a year to rent 5 helis and have a private company fly the job for the Irish Coast Guard. with some ex aircorps personnel working there too.

Psychlops · 18-11-2019 11:06pm

Morpheus wrote: »

This happened with the SAR role. now we fork out 50m a year to rent 5 helis and have a private company fly the job for the Irish Coast Guard. with some ex aircorps personnel working there too.

And a fine job they are doing also.

Elemonator · 18-11-2019 11:16pm

Coming from a family with a few military members, it honestly breaks my heart to hear the conditions that Irish Defence Forces staff work under today. The way the forces are treated by the Government is nothing short of negligent. These are the people who willingly put their lives on the line should be ever be called to do so, and receive such a dismissive attitude in return.

In terms of equipment availability, that is risible as a previous poster said. There are countries out there with far less money than Ireland who have so much more equipment capability. I'll ask yous, do you think there will ever be change?

CJhaughey · 04-12-2019 10:06am

Not as long as this inept shower of individuals are allowed to run the country the same way.
Just think what the 1.8+m that has been wasted on a printer that doesn't yet function could have done for a charity like the ICRR.

They are just about keeping their head above water while providing lifesaving medical work.
Its galling how poorly the DF have been treated, not just one branch but all of them, its really shameful tbh.
Look at New Zealand a country with a similar size population and compare the DF here to NZ, when major events like the Earthquake happened who was on hand to provide emergency medical assistance, Evac and humanitarian work?
The Navy and Air force stepped in along with other countries like Canada and the US.
We had major flooding in Donegal and there wasn't a hint of a response from the DF I am not blaming them but the ineptitude of the government in being able to manage major situations like roads being washed away or similar.

The purpose of the DF is to assist civilian power in the event of a major problem, we don't have anyone in power that can even conceive of such a function for the DF and its worrying because the longer this state of affairs goes on the more of a brain drain there will be, we have already IMHO passed that point in the Naval service.

04-12-2019 10:23am

My impression is that there are very few votes to be gained from politicians taking any interest in defence.

The minister is no longer a senior cabinet role, the number of personnel and particularly barracks have declined greatly so many constituencies do not have any military connections and health is blowing through its budgets annually, we are also going to have huge problem supporting an ageing population in the next 30/50 years.

Currently the government is taking in large amounts of revenue ahead of their targets, the fun will really begin when this starts to decline.

10-01-2020 7:03pm

Psychlops wrote: »

ICRR & IRCG are now filling the days that the EAS is not available.

ICRR is about to need a bucket of cash itself.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/harris-tells-hse-to-save-air-ambulance-after-funds-run-out-974596.html

Are we about to put cash into a new service whilst cutting the heli service that we already had?

How the hell did we end up here then?

roadmaster · 01-04-2020 1:50pm

I see the community air ambulance is grounded now due to funding. They where covering 112 on the last Friday of the month from Roscommon , Has 112 got back to full strength or is there now a gap?

Psychlops · 01-04-2020 8:14pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I see the community air ambulance is grounded now due to funding. They where covering 112 on the last Friday of the month from Roscommon , Has 112 got back to full strength or is there now a gap?

AC112 was active over the weekends and ive heard them on ATC every day so far.

Air Corps Availability

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