[2003 thread] Sunday Independant: "Bus investment proves cheaper than Luas plan"

embraer170 · 28-04-2003 2:26am #1

Rather interesting article:

EOGHAN WILLIAMS - Sunday Independent - 27 April 03
BUSES could carry just as many passengers as Luas for 30 times less money, transport figures show.

As it is, the light rail system will take just 20 million passengers each year, compared to the 150 million who travel on Dublin Bus.

The information came in the week that Transport Minister Seamus Brennan accepted publicly that Luas and traffic routing plans could cause chaos at a notorious Dublin junction.

Mr Brennan will now visit the Red Cow roundabout to see if the scheme can be altered.

But the Operations Manager of Dublin Bus Mick Mathews issued a warning that Luas will disrupt other public transport systems throughout the city.

Mr Matthews said the 50 million people who travel by bus on O'Connell Street each year will be delayed by the lower capacity Luas. A less disruptive and cheaper service could be provided by buses, he said.

Details published by the Rail Procurement Agency show a Luas train will cross O'Connell Street in one direction every 2.5 minutes. Each train will carry a maximum of 240 passengers, meaning 2880 people can be moved one way in an hour.

However, 19 so-called 'bendy buses' could take the same number of commuters, causing less disruption and at a fraction of the estimated price of the Luas.

One kilometre of top quality bus lane costs €400,000. The cost per kilometre of Luas is €28 million. The most conservative estimates say the bill for the entire 24km project will total €675m.

Luas line A, which runs from Tallaght to the city centre, is 14km in length, and is expected cost on average €390m to build.

For the same money, a state-of-the-art bus lane could be built and over 1,000 buses purchased.

However, only 19 buses would be needed to carry the same passenger numbers as Luas, leading to a saving of over €350m.

The speed of Luas at many times of day will compare favourably to that of buses. Indeed, critics say Luas will slow buses further.

The provision of dedicated bus lanes would greatly increase the average speed of buses in the city, at a fraction of the cost estimated for the Luas plan.

Mr Mathews dismissed the Luas plans saying: "The problem is that putting a light rail system on top of an existing road traffic system is bound to cause chaos."

Dublin Bus will be forced to compete on some routes with Connex - the private firm that will operate the Luas service.

The Rail Procurement Agency did not comment on the significant price difference between the light rail system and a bus-based alternative.

While I agree that the article makes some good points, it is worth remembering that other cities with almost perfect bus systems are nonetheless building/expanding light rail networks.

Example: Geneva, Switzerland. Many electric trolley bus routes. Buses on many routes run every 3-5 minutes with an excellent on time record. Traffic lights are synchronized to the bus schedule etc. Yet the tram network is being expanded. Two new lines under construction with plans for more.

Jer

Borzoi · 28-04-2003 8:41am

Well you'd expect Dublin Bus to:
a) be critical
b) put their exceuses for further delays in early

But what is funny is that Brennan is going to the Red Cow to sort out the problems there....................

dmeehan · 28-04-2003 9:12am

the article makes it sound like dublin bus is a tremendous model of efficiency

i mean in the comparison between passenger number it tries to make lus look like a complete waste of money 20 million passengers vs. 150 million

but it doesnt mention the fact that luas has only 2 routes to carry the 20 million, and dublin bus has how many routes to carry the 150 million?

sligoliner · 28-04-2003 1:43pm

Buses don't get peple out of cars - only railways do.

Buses are viewed as an inferior form of motor car. Drivers think what is the point. Railways, are the only thing that is seen as an improvement and light rail in cities especially so. Fine Gael about ten years ago had a plan to shut down the rail network and replace it totally with buses.

Nowhere else is Europe has such bizzare thinking happened. Not even in the UK. Lord Beeching would have been considered pro-railways compared to some of the chairmen of CIE and various transport ministers in Ireland

D'Peoples Voice · 02-01-2013 2:55pm

for a bit of balance to the original story...

Almost 30 million passenger journeys were made on the Luas last year, figures show.

Rory O’Connor, RPA chief executive, said the success of the Luas supported plans for it to be extended.

“We have worked hard to reduce costs on the one hand and to increase passenger numbers on the other, and we are delighted with the increase in passenger numbers for 2012, which certainly bucks the trend,” he added.

Passenger numbers on the Luas were up by around 300,000 last year compared with 2011.

When the final figures are tallied, it is expected that 29.4 million passenger journeys will have been made in 2012, a rise from just over 29 million the previous year.

The busiest times for the Luas were the end of August, during the Tall Ships festival, and during the Christmas season last month.

Permission was granted last August for a 5.6km extension to the Luas Green Line between St Stephen’s Green and Broombridge.

The new line will link the Red and Green lines and is expected to generate an extra 10 million passenger journeys a year.

The RPA said the line is due to be in operation by 2017.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/luas-makes-29-million-passenger-journeys-in-2012-579712.html

CIE · 02-01-2013 3:30pm

sligoliner wrote: »

Buses don't get peple out of cars - only railways do.

Buses are viewed as an inferior form of motor car. Drivers think what is the point. Railways, are the only thing that is seen as an improvement and light rail in cities especially so. Fine Gael about ten years ago had a plan to shut down the rail network and replace it totally with buses.

Nowhere else is Europe has such bizzare thinking happened. Not even in the UK. Lord Beeching would have been considered pro-railways compared to some of the chairmen of CIE and various transport ministers in Ireland

No, not light rail over heavy rail, especially heavy rail that is grade separated from traffic and can actually get people into the city faster. (Or even underground light rail, but that tends to be on tramways further out, which slows things down a bit.)

Either way, bus cannot replace rail, nor can light rail replace heavy. The modes can only supplement each other.

Jamie2k9 · 02-01-2013 6:22pm

What kind of plebs do the Independant employ to write about public transport. I have never read a correct article that refers to transport of any sort.

thomasj · 02-01-2013 6:30pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What kind of plebs do the Independant employ to write about public transport. I have never read a correct article that refers to transport of any sort.

One of their correspondents chose celbridge over Clonsilla (about 10 years ago) when buying a house because they thought the latter hadn't got rail transport.........

dowlingm · 02-01-2013 7:16pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What kind of plebs do the Independant employ to write about public transport. I have never read a correct article that refers to transport of any sort.

Fixed that for you.

Duckworth School of Journalism strikes again...

Mr Simpson · 02-01-2013 7:20pm

Lads, ye realise this thread is from 2003, yeah?

LivelineDipso · 02-01-2013 7:43pm

I love how the 'journalist' compares the entire Dublin Bus work to a limited light rail network.

You got to love the Indo!

thomasj · 02-01-2013 8:07pm

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I love how the 'journalist' compares the entire Dublin Bus work to a limited light rail network.

You got to love the Indo!

Those living on the limited light rail network had the advantage of getting home after 10pm new years eve ( and those on the green line both directions after midnight) and have the advantage of getting home at 00.30 on a weekday night.

I wouldn't mind one of those lines out my way!

Jamie2k9 · 03-01-2013 12:43am

Didn't realise it was 2003 but my comments still stand.

Cookie_Monster · 03-01-2013 4:40am

given that the bendy buses were consigned to the dustbin of history thanks to DB inabiltiy to operate them makes the outdated article even more pointless.

why not lock instead of labelling 2003 in the thread title?

D'Peoples Voice · 03-01-2013 2:39pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why not lock instead of labelling 2003 in the thread title?

So many transport projects are binned because of media scaremongering.

It is important people remember these stories
because next time the same journalists knocks a project
they can look at their track record!

Luas PAX are 50% over target albeit with extensions
How many other projects have we binned over media scaremongering?
So the journo's need to be shown up when they are proved wrong!

lucernarian · 03-01-2013 7:01pm

It does restrict traffic movements in all directions not served by the luas. The effect of the completion of the original green LUAS line to Parnell Square will be profound on Dublin Bus and in particular the passengers who don't have the use of the LUAS as an alternative.

The original article made a mistake with the calculations though, a luas travelling in one direction every 2.5 minutes means 24 LUAS trams per hour each direction, not 12. Assuming no consideration was given to how two trams may cross O'Connell St. simultaneously. Meaning 38 bendy buses per hour would be needed. Back of envelope stuff but... I reckon to provide a bus service of every 2 minutes each way or even 90 seconds dropping to every ten minutes by 11.30pm with bendy-buses, on a route of duration 1 hour from start to finish, with the garage about ten minutes away from one terminus, it would need somewhere between 80 and 95 buses for such a service. I'm open to correction on that. So the cost of such a bus service is well over €100 million in Capex costs and with a higher labour bill too.

[2003 thread] Sunday Independant: "Bus investment proves cheaper than Luas plan"

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