Charlesland closing December 31st

Skyfloater · 02-10-2020 11:40am

All true. I know one of the neighbouring landowners has a share in it, can't recall who the others are. It's funny that you mention it takes a min 600 members to keep a place going, and then you look at Roundwood with it's perpetually empty timesheet and wonder how has it survived.

prawnsambo · 02-10-2020 11:45am

Dtoffee wrote: »

Reality is you will probably need over 600 members to make any course annually viable these days and that's before you look at paying off loans you borrow to build/upgrade/renew. The course is idle for nearly 4 years and the farmer owned all the machinery, so that wont come cheap. There's no doubt the greens, bunkers and fairways are full of weeds and the watering system beyond repair.

I don't think that's something you can state without taking into account how much the sub is, what level of visitors the club gets, societies etc.

One club with a sub of €500 a year and another with €1000 are obviously on different incomes with the same number of members.

xgronkjabv6pcl · 02-10-2020 11:55am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't think that's something you can state without taking into account how much the sub is, what level of visitors the club gets, societies etc.

One club with a sub of €500 a year and another with €1000 are obviously on different incomes with the same number of members.

600 is probably a decent ballpark number for a members owned club outside of Dublin with a sub of <1k a year.

As you say, many variables to consider, clubs which have the advantage of a hotel for example may require lower membership numbers.

Some clubs will have much large debt to service than others, a myriad of things will influence it.

MetzgerMeister · 08-10-2020 10:09am

I played Charlesland a number of years ago and it took us just over 4 hours to get to the 16th tee due to the slow play ahead of us. Added to that it wasn't the warmest of days so we were pretty miserable and we just went in after 15.

swededmonkey · 08-10-2020 11:17am

I've heard through a member that c.60 members from Charlesland have joined Druids Glen

golondrinas · 08-10-2020 11:22am

swededmonkey wrote: »

I've heard through a member that c.60 members from Charlesland have joined Druids Glen

Who now owns Druids Glen?

swededmonkey · 08-10-2020 3:17pm

golondrinas wrote: »

Who now owns Druids Glen?

It's privately owned (run as a business, not owned by the members) same guy that owns St. Margaret's

CSWS101 · 08-10-2020 5:59pm

swededmonkey wrote: »

It's privately owned (run as a business, not owned by the members) same guy that owns St. Margaret's

I was told it's due to close for a year for renovations, any truth in that? Was playing with a member and he said they want to get it to a standard to host another Irish open.

Skyfloater · 08-10-2020 6:22pm

Skyfloater wrote: »

Djouce has gone back to meadow. It's strange that as the population of north east Wicklow has increased over the last decade or so, we have lost Glen of the Downs, Kilcoole, Glencullen, Djouce and now Charlesland.

I should add Ballinastoe to that list as well. It could be tricky getting into a club in the area in the new year at this rate.

Richmond Ultra · 08-10-2020 9:20pm

CSWS101 wrote: »

I was told it's due to close for a year for renovations, any truth in that? Was playing with a member and he said they want to get it to a standard to host another Irish open.

I was told similar last week.

Imhof Tank · 09-10-2020 12:25pm

swededmonkey wrote: »

I've heard through a member that c.60 members from Charlesland have joined Druids Glen

Glen or Heath?

Find it very hard to believe 60 Charlesland members stumped up the €5k hello money as a group for the Glen that quick, and the higher subs.

And any suggestion of a group discount would definately have the current members up in arms.

swededmonkey · 09-10-2020 3:04pm

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Glen or Heath?

Find it very hard to believe 60 Charlesland members stumped up the €5k hello money as a group for the Glen that quick, and the higher subs.

And any suggestion of a group discount would definately have the current members up in arms.

The entrance fee has been dropped and membership includes the heath. What level of playing rights or access i'm not sure. But that might add some weight to the glen being redeveloped

Tippex · 09-10-2020 4:36pm

Skyfloater wrote: »

I should add Ballinastoe to that list as well. It could be tricky getting into a club in the area in the new year at this rate.

I'm looking a joining next year not sure where I'm gonna join most likely Bray. Pretty limited as I don't drive so that the handiest for me.

The fact that so many courses have closed is crazy. I'm fairly shocked that no one has looked at taking Glen of the Downs (though at this stage it will be a lot of work to get the course into shape)

prawnsambo · 10-10-2020 6:50pm

Tippex wrote: »

I'm looking a joining next year not sure where I'm gonna join most likely Bray. Pretty limited as I don't drive so that the handiest for me.

The fact that so many courses have closed is crazy. I'm fairly shocked that no one has looked at taking Glen of the Downs (though at this stage it will be a lot of work to get the course into shape)

Glen of the Downs was a very messy ownership setup. Just not a viable proposition for anyone really.

whizbang · 11-10-2020 1:37am

I believe the redevelopment of the Glen has been postponed for a significant time.
Announced way back during lockdown.

BraveDonut · 12-10-2020 2:01pm

Tippex wrote: »

I'm looking a joining next year not sure where I'm gonna join most likely Bray. Pretty limited as I don't drive so that the handiest for me.

The fact that so many courses have closed is crazy. I'm fairly shocked that no one has looked at taking Glen of the Downs (though at this stage it will be a lot of work to get the course into shape)

Bray took in a lot of new members this year - so it will be pretty close to being full if not full already.
Having said that, a lot of the new members are not 'full' members so there may still be options.

This is the time of year that membership subscriptions are due - so, if you are doing to do it, do it soon.

Panic Stations · 19-10-2020 12:16pm

Sad to see this course going.

Only played it in for the first time about a month ago and really enjoyed it. Wasn't mad about the back 9 though.

Anyone have any idea on what's going to happen to the land? I imagine it's going to be turned in residential developments.

Tippex · 19-10-2020 2:21pm

Panic Stations wrote: »

Sad to see this course going.

Only played it in for the first time about a month ago and really enjoyed it. Wasn't mad about the back 9 though.

Anyone have any idea on what's going to happen to the land? I imagine it's going to be turned in residential developments.

There is no planning permission applied for currently on the land. Although there have been rumours for years that it was going to be developed on. With the wicklow planning rules and history nothing can be ruled out.

loyatemu · 19-10-2020 3:46pm

It's not zoned for housing. The new development plan is being prepared but the council has already said there won't be any major rezoning in Greystones as there was a large amount of land zoned in the last plan (not all of which has been developed yet).

twounderpar · 29-10-2020 1:19pm

The Royal and Ancient have given grants to 110 golf clubs as part of Covid 19 support fund. €600,000 was given out which averages at less than €6000 per club.
Certain conditions had to be met in order to qualify including the club needing extra funds in order to continue offering golf facilities to members.
The majority of clubs were along the western seaboard from Kerry to Donegal.
Surprised to see Sutton and Balbriggan qualifying for the grant.

Ollieboy · 29-10-2020 2:52pm

twounderpar wrote: »

The Royal and Ancient have given grants to 110 golf clubs as part of Covid 19 support fund. €600,000 was given out which averages at less than €6000 per club.
Certain conditions had to be met in order to qualify including the club needing extra funds in order to continue offering golf facilities to members.
The majority of clubs were along the western seaboard from Kerry to Donegal.
Surprised to see Sutton and Balbriggan qualifying for the grant.

Im amazed if they qualify!

Clubs who were successful in their application will receive a grant, ranging in value, and have met specific criteria including the following:

The club is eligible for relief from income tax and corporation tax for clubs under the exemptions provided for Games/Sporting bodies in ROI and clubs registered under the Registration of Clubs Act in NI.
The club is member owned.
The club is in urgent need of The R&A funding in order continue to provide facilities for the normal playing of the game for their members and visitors.
The club has no entrance fee or an entrance fee of less than €1,500/£1,500.
The club’s membership income is lower than €600,000/£535,00 and/or green fee/society revenue is lower that €100,000/£90,000 as reported in the clubs 2019 financial statements.
The club does not provide a financial return to stakeholders/owners.
The club's subscriptions are paid up to date for 2020 to both the GUI & ILGU.

twounderpar · 29-10-2020 4:15pm

The other Dublin clubs to receive grants were Donabate,Skerries, Balcarrick and Slade Valley.

30-10-2020 10:32am

twounderpar wrote: »

The Royal and Ancient have given grants to 110 golf clubs as part of Covid 19 support fund. €600,000 was given out which averages at less than €6000 per club.
Certain conditions had to be met in order to qualify including the club needing extra funds in order to continue offering golf facilities to members.
The majority of clubs were along the western seaboard from Kerry to Donegal.
Surprised to see Sutton and Balbriggan qualifying for the grant.

Why are you surprised? They obviously fulfilled the criteria set down?

twounderpar · 30-10-2020 11:51am

I was surprised because I thought with the recent huge increase in golf membership that both of these clubs would have been well placed to take full advantage of this situation and would not be in urgent need of funds to continue offering facilities for the normal playing of the game.

Anyway, the size of the grant...an average of €6000 isn't going to make much difference one way or the other.

Ollieboy · 30-10-2020 12:13pm

twounderpar wrote: »

I was surprised because I thought with the recent huge increase in golf membership that both of these clubs would have been well placed to take full advantage of this situation and would not be in urgent need of funds to continue offering facilities for the normal playing of the game.

Anyway, the size of the grant...an average of €6000 isn't going to make much difference one way or the other.

It’s based on 2019 accounts so if someone tells me that Sutton is turning over less then 600k per year I’m shocked. They have 600 members with subs around 1400 and green fee is 70. Something does not add up.

Even 100k in green fees for a Dublin club would be a minimum income.

Donabate and Balcarrick income could be this low and maybe Skerries would be as it’s only has 9 holes. But Sutton shocks me. Even the bar income would be decent at Sutton and I thought they had a entrance fee?

Im sure any members here Of these clubs can confirm anyway.

30-10-2020 12:24pm

Ollieboy wrote: »

It’s based on 2019 accounts so if someone tells me that Sutton is turning over less then 600k per year I’m shocked. They have 600 members with subs around 1400 and green fee is 70. Something does not add up.

Even 100k in green fees for a Dublin club would be a minimum income.

Donabate and Balcarrick income could be this low and maybe Skerries would be as it’s only has 9 holes. But Sutton shocks me. Even the bar income would be decent at Sutton and I thought they had a entrance fee?

Im sure any members here Of these clubs can confirm anyway.

Skerries is an 18 hole course. Sutton is only a 9 hole course.

Charlesland closing December 31st

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