Errors in Leaving Cert predicted grades system

JasonStatham · 30-09-2020 7:55pm #1

https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-students-calculated-grades-5218926-Sep2020/

Surprise surprise, the Devs cocked it up.

I'm reminded of the Chronicles of Riddick where the Riddick says ...."Shoulda taken the money, Toombs!"

They should have held the Leaving Cert!

Plumbthedepths · 30-09-2020 7:57pm

I remember the minister saying they wouldn't make the same mistakes they did in the UK. Fair play they didn't they made two stupid mistakes that has had a dreadful impact on 6,000 kids.

TheBlackPill · 30-09-2020 8:03pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I remember the minister saying they wouldn't make the same mistakes they did in the UK. Fair play they didn't they made two stupid mistakes that has had a dreadful impact on 6,000 kids.

Half of those got too high a mark that will not be downgraded. If i have any future job applicants from the 2020 class, any that sat the november exam will have a big advantage

dundalkfc10 · 30-09-2020 8:22pm

TheBlackPill wrote: »

Half of those got too high a mark that will not be downgraded. If i have any future job applicants from the 2020 class, any that sat the november exam will have a big advantage

Not to forget the poor kids who got the correct points for courses with correct grades but as people got Inflated grades they misses out on places.

This is a sensational scandal, The Govt think the Youth wernt listening before are in for some shock

TheBlackPill · 30-09-2020 8:23pm

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Not to forget the poor kids who got the correct points for courses with correct grades but as people got Inflated grades they misses out on places.

This is a sensational scandal, The Govt think the Youth wernt listening before are in for some shock

The smart kids will have kept up the study during lockdown and will sit the exam in November

Zookey123 · 30-09-2020 8:34pm

TheBlackPill wrote: »

Half of those got too high a mark that will not be downgraded. If i have any future job applicants from the 2020 class, any that sat the november exam will have a big advantage

Leaving cert grade is only really important for getting into a college course. I haven't once been asked my leaving cert score in a job interview. Your primary degree/experience is what really counts not some silly rote learning exam.

Double O Seven · 30-09-2020 8:40pm

Could someone explain why holding the leaving cert exams in early August was deemed a "health hazard" by NEPHT when all school kids were going back at the end of that month?

tonycascarino · 30-09-2020 8:46pm

Lots of people are getting into courses this time around that they aren't capable of and shouldn't be getting. However, I suppose that is good news for colleges as it means more exam failures which equals more money for them.

suicide_circus · 30-09-2020 9:12pm

I for one am shocked

Tow · 30-09-2020 9:20pm

It is not just this year. People who sit the leaving in the next few years will be at a disadvantage. They will be competing against their inflated results both for college courses and jobs.

GetWithIt · 30-09-2020 9:39pm

The first error was that the standardisation was meant to take in the three core Junior Cert subjects: English, Irish and Maths, and the students’ two highest subjects – but instead the algorithm took into account their two lowest subjects.
The second error was that the algorithm was to discount the subject Civic, Social and Political Education (CSPE), and instead included it.

The first thing that came to my mind having read that was MEAT - Most Economically Advantageous Tender

30-09-2020 10:07pm

Zookey123 wrote: »

Leaving cert grade is only really important for getting into a college course. I haven't once been asked my leaving cert score in a job interview. Your primary degree/experience is what really counts not some silly rote learning exam.

The grade is useful for non-third level courses. A rather sizable percentage of our population don't attend university/college, instead going for technical courses, private courses, or directly into work placements. Even when getting further certs past the initial one, their LC results are often used for appraisal during interviews. The LC results are often used for people applying for work who haven't attended university...

beggars_bush · 30-09-2020 10:15pm

Double O Seven wrote: »

Could someone explain why holding the leaving cert exams in early August was deemed a "health hazard" by NEPHT when all school kids were going back at the end of that month?

Not enough lead in time to correct

Atlantic Dawn · 30-09-2020 10:17pm

I'm beginning to think this government may have overtaken a funeral in their limousine convoy, it's cursed from day 1.

Godeatsboogers · 30-09-2020 10:31pm

My leaving cert results were used as a reason to stop me doing a science course at a further education college in limerick 14 years after the exams because I didnt do great in science but very well in business, but I hated business. Turns out the science class was free but the the science teacher who denied me the chance to join his class suggested I take the accounting class, the only class left with open spaces besides his, was one of the only fees based class, surprise surprise, with only 8 students.

Pronto63 · 30-09-2020 10:38pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I remember the minister saying they wouldn't make the same mistakes they did in the UK. Fair play they didn't they made two stupid mistakes that has had a dreadful impact on 6,000 kids.

6,000 kids that will be voting in the next election!!

JDxtra · 30-09-2020 10:47pm

Polymetrika International, the Canadian company contracted to do the coding is a bit suspicious looking. Looks like a one man show who knocked up an Excel macro or something.

99nsr125 · 01-10-2020 2:49am

Double O Seven wrote: »

Could someone explain why holding the leaving cert exams in early August was deemed a "health hazard" by NEPHT when all school kids were going back at the end of that month?

Because NEPHT have no idea what they are doing, just think ostrich with it's head in the sand

bobbyy gee · 01-10-2020 2:53am

so my 7As
were a mistake

endacl · 01-10-2020 3:10am

bobbyy gee wrote: »

so my 7As
were a mistake

Maybe not. I believe they don't mark for punctuation or formatting these days.

:pac:

patnor1011 · 01-10-2020 6:52am

Meh, what is called mistakes is a convenient lie to appease disgruntled fee-paying colleges and their students who somehow feel they deserve more points they got.

It is another PR stunt just to settle threats of court action so they came up with some "software glitch" to allow them to shut up a couple of thousands unhappy future dentists and lawyers by tossing them extra points.

SnowyMay · 01-10-2020 7:12am

JDxtra wrote: »

Polymetrika International, the Canadian company contracted to do the coding is a bit suspicious looking. Looks like a one man show who knocked up an Excel macro or something.

Whoops. So, apparently the code looked at the Junior Cert results for English, Irish and Maths, together with the two weakest subjects, instead of English, Irish and Maths, and the two strongest subjects.

Also took into account CSPE, which wasn't meant to be part of the equation.

Sure, many of the students could have written that code properly!

Tow · 01-10-2020 10:40am

JDxtra wrote: »

Polymetrika International, the Canadian company contracted to do the coding is a bit suspicious looking. Looks like a one man show who knocked up an Excel macro or something.

Very much so, Linkedin In gives the CEOs details. They also have a expired certificate (for almost a year) on their Canadian 'ca' website.

Looks like the dept. did not bother to properly check the results. Classic case of outsourcing the job so we will not be responsible.

Floppybits · 01-10-2020 11:10am

SnowyMay wrote: »

Whoops. So, apparently the code looked at the Junior Cert results for English, Irish and Maths, together with the two weakest subjects, instead of English, Irish and Maths, and the two strongest subjects.

Also took into account CSPE, which wasn't meant to be part of the equation.

Sure, many of the students could have written that code properly!

Maybe the code was coded correctly but the requirements supplied to the developers was incorrect.

JDxtra · 01-10-2020 12:52pm

Polymetrika is a one man show. The CEO/data analyst/developer/QA tester clearly he has some connection back to the dept. of education. One look at their web site or LinkedIn page says you need to run in the opposite direction, yet somehow he was awarded €160k!

All along there were assurances about the integrity of the algorithm, but clearly nobody did any proper testing of what was delivered.

Plus, there is no way this had "50,000" lines of code.

Total sham.

Edgware · 01-10-2020 1:48pm

Pronto63 wrote: »

6,000 kids that will be voting in the next election!!

They'll get over it. Some will stay with the course they were offered. Some will take up courses they should have received either this year or next year. Many will like the idea of a deferment because the first year college experience certainly wont be what it normally is.
I would be more concerned with the young people who are not interested in third level but are out looking for employment. This media obsessed whinging about L.C students who are suffering from stress because they didnt have their two weeks in Benidorm and annual Freshers week pissed is a joke.

dundalkfc10 · 01-10-2020 1:59pm

Edgware wrote: »

They'll get over it. Some will stay with the course they were offered. Some will take up courses they should have received either this year or next year. Many will like the idea of a deferment because the first year college experience certainly wont be what it normally is.
I would be more concerned with the young people who are not interested in third level but are out looking for employment. This media obsessed whinging about L.C students who are suffering from stress because they didnt have their two weeks in Benidorm and annual Freshers week pissed is a joke.

What about money that's been wasted by kids parents going to places taking up 2nd offers who are now going to be offered their 1st place.
What about people who got coorect points who would have got spots in courses only for students with Inflated grades to get their spot.

Their was a delay in these results coming out, as they were making sure they were correct.

They knew they were wrong but still went ahead with CAO offers the next day, 8 days later it came out and they had no answers to any solutions.

Today they stiill don't have any answers

But sure it's grand

Edgware · 01-10-2020 2:03pm

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

What about money that's been wasted by kids parents going to places taking up 2nd offers who are now going to be offered their 1st place.
What about people who got coorect points who would have got spots in courses only for students with Inflated grades to get their spot.

Their was a delay in these results coming out, as they were making sure they were correct.

They knew they were wrong but still went ahead with CAO offers the next day, 8 days later it came out and they had no answers to any solutions.

Today they stiill don't have any answers

But sure it's grand

What about? What about?

dundalkfc10 · 01-10-2020 2:13pm

Edgware wrote: »

What about? What about?

Yes what about them students and their family's? Why should their year be further upended because of the incompetence of the Dept of Education.

They will have to set more money in budget aside now for legal fees for court cases, alot them kids not at college will now be entitled to social welfare.

But sure Its grand

Edgware · 02-10-2020 10:01am

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Yes what about them students and their family's? Why should their year be further upended because of the incompetence of the Dept of Education.

They will have to set more money in budget aside now for legal fees for court cases, alot them kids not at college will now be entitled to social welfare.

But sure Its grand

I'm sure that everyone involved in this process did their best at short notice and in very difficult times. There will always be mishaps when humans are involved but errors made were not down to wilful intent. The hurlers on the ditch will always have the answer. Errors were made and every effort is being made to rectify them. The Department and the various third level institutions have indicated that they are amenable to assist with change of courses, refunds, deferring of entries etc. The whingers can continue whinging in their perfect little world while others will being doing their best in difficult circumstances

JDxtra · 02-10-2020 10:14am

The problem here is that the department engaged Fernando Cartwright under the guise of his “company”. I don’t care if this guy is an expert in his field, that’s irrelevant. He’s a single person, and that’s a huge risk.

Many eyes should have been all over this - the algorithm, the coding and the most importantly the testing. It was too important to farm the whole process out to one guy.

Of course mistakes happen, but if this was done properly those mistakes would have been detected way sooner.

JDxtra · 02-10-2020 10:18am

…and another point. I’m hoping EU data protection regulations were fully followed when the department decided to engage the services of this company. For all we know, this guy in Canada has the full details and exam history of 61,000 students sitting on an unencrypted laptop in his house.

stockshares · 02-10-2020 12:14pm

JDxtra wrote: »

The problem here is that the department engaged Fernando Cartwright under the guise of his “company”. I don’t care if this guy is an expert in his field, that’s irrelevant. He’s a single person, and that’s a huge risk.

Many eyes should have been all over this - the algorithm, the coding and the most importantly the testing. It was too important to farm the whole process out to one guy.

Of course mistakes happen, but if this was done properly those mistakes would have been detected way sooner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/firm-linked-to-errors-in-leaving-cert-results-paid-163-000-1.4369880
Quote
The department said a full procurement process did not take place on the basis that there was “insufficient time” to do so.

The registered address for Polymetrika International Inc - 150 Hinchey Avenue - is a residential home in Ottawa, according to company records.

The company’s chief executive is Dr Fernando Cartwright, though it is not clear from the firm’s website or other records whether other employees or contractors are based at the address.

Fernando previously worked on Research papers for the Education and Research Centre in Dublin.

He was mentioned in this Debate in July by Thomas Byrne. Byrne denied having ever met him on Rte Radio yesterday.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2020-06-04/4/

Quote by Thomas Byrne
I welcome much of what the Minister said today and acknowledge that some of the suggestions made by Fianna Fáil and other parties in Dáil Éireann over the last number of weeks have, in fact, been implemented.

I particularly welcome the role played by Dr. Fernando Cartwright in the process surrounding the calculated grades system, and the Minister's announcement of an independent monitoring committee for the process.

stockshares · 02-10-2020 12:43pm

Thomas Byrne was Fianna Fail spokesman on Education earlier in the year and he wanted the exams cancelled before he became Minister of State for European Affairs later.
https://www.newstalk.com/news/leaving-cert-thomas-byrne-1011403

Quote(from Article on 7th May)
Fianna Fáil's Thomas Byrne publicly called for the cancellation of the exams last week.

blanch152 · 02-10-2020 12:50pm

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

What about money that's been wasted by kids parents going to places taking up 2nd offers who are now going to be offered their 1st place.
What about people who got coorect points who would have got spots in courses only for students with Inflated grades to get their spot.

Their was a delay in these results coming out, as they were making sure they were correct.

They knew they were wrong but still went ahead with CAO offers the next day, 8 days later it came out and they had no answers to any solutions.

Today they stiill don't have any answers

But sure it's grand

Happens every year with appeals. I found that one of my kid's papers was only half-marked. That was well over a decade ago.

02-10-2020 12:53pm

bobbyy gee wrote: »

so my 7As
were a mistake

I too had 7 As on leaving cert results morning, as I stood there with my head in my hands screaming......."AAAAAAA!!!!?!!!"

Errors in Leaving Cert predicted grades system

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