Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Stovepipe · 01-04-2021 8:24pm

the stupid bollox. It isnt a rare procedure. It's common in all AAIUs across Europe because they all agree to work to the same protocols and standards. he's talking out of his hole.

MoeJay · 01-04-2021 8:41pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

the stupid bollox. It isnt a rare procedure. It's common in all AAIUs across Europe because they all agree to work to the same protocols and standards. he's talking out of his hole.

Well I disagree. The review process that this report is now subject to is certainly not common practice at all. Certainly isn't provided for in any ICAO Annex.....

jmayo · 01-04-2021 8:42pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

the stupid bollox. It isnt a rare procedure. It's common in all AAIUs across Europe because they all agree to work to the same protocols and standards. he's talking out of his hole.

Stovepipe do you know of many Air Accident Reports that still haven't been published 4 years on and where it looks like it is being reviewed by legal professional ?

smurfjed · 01-04-2021 8:57pm

Is there any timeframe relating to this review?

wotswattage · 02-04-2021 12:13am

jmayo wrote: »

Stovepipe do you know of many Air Accident Reports that still haven't been published 4 years on and where it looks like it is being reviewed by legal professional ?

There is a precident for long delays in publishing accident reports, Ryanair 4102 in Rome is one example where it took 10 years for the final report to come out (I'm sure there are others too bit I can't recall any off the top of my head). Completely different accidents and countries but it is known to happen.

Negative_G · 02-04-2021 8:48pm

smurfjed wrote: »

Is there any timeframe relating to this review?

Probably will be published shortly after the new SAR contract is awarded.

roadmaster · 03-04-2021 8:20am

Negative_G wrote: »

Probably will be published shortly after the new SAR contract is awarded.

That sounds like the contract has already being predetermined

kippy · 03-04-2021 8:31am

roadmaster wrote: »

That sounds like the contract has already being predetermined

There can't be many players in this game?

General Disarray · 03-04-2021 11:32am

roadmaster wrote: »

That sounds like the contract has already being predetermined

Read between the lines....

Stovepipe · 03-04-2021 1:45pm

jmayo wrote: »

Stovepipe do you know of many Air Accident Reports that still haven't been published 4 years on and where it looks like it is being reviewed by legal professional ?

I recall at least one investigation that took 15 years. Not here, but in Italy or France. Long delays are not uncommon, because of the depth of scrutiny involved.
Believe me when I say that the Irish AAIU is truly independent and will not be swayed by political or other considerations. As an organisation,it punches well above it's weight and is highly regarded by it's peer group. It's integrity is not in doubt. If anyone is objecting to something,which is their legal right, then the AAIU must follow protocol and allow their objection to be heard. Things like the awarding of contracts are out of their hands and they have no hand, act or part to play in such decisions.

Stovepipe · 03-04-2021 1:51pm

Roger_007 wrote: »

I’m afraid we are setting an unfortunate precedent. The report should have been published and then anyone who has any issue could take it up from there. We are now in a situation where someone can prevent publication of an official accident report simply by objecting to some of its contents. What is to stop anyone from objecting to whatever the review comes up with. This could go on for years with consequent damage to the reputation of the AAIU.

In any accident or incident, when the draft report is finished, it is subject to peer review and then it is sent out to interested parties (ie,those involved) for their review. If they don't like what they read,that's their opportunity to make their objection known. If all the interested parties agree,then the report is published. It does not see the light of day until all parties have had their say. The AAIU cannot adopt a "publish and be damned!" attitude to their reports. They cannot assign blame. That is for someone else to decide. They have to be neutral,above all things.

irishgeo · 03-04-2021 2:09pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

In any accident or incident, when the draft report is finished, it is subject to peer review and then it is sent out to interested parties (ie,those involved) for their review. If they don't like what they read,that's their opportunity to make their objection known. If all the interested parties agree,then the report is published. It does not see the light of day until all parties have had their say. The AAIU cannot adopt a "publish and be damned!" attitude to their reports. They cannot assign blame. That is for someone else to decide. They have to be neutral,above all things.

if they are not assigning blame why would anyone have a problem with the report.

Roger_007 · 03-04-2021 3:08pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

In any accident or incident, when the draft report is finished, it is subject to peer review and then it is sent out to interested parties (ie,those involved) for their review. If they don't like what they read,that's their opportunity to make their objection known. If all the interested parties agree,then the report is published. It does not see the light of day until all parties have had their say. The AAIU cannot adopt a "publish and be damned!" attitude to their reports. They cannot assign blame. That is for someone else to decide. They have to be neutral,above all things.

This is simply not true. There would very many reports never published if all interested parties had to agree to its contents. Of course interested parties can make observations or point out matters which they consider to be errors of fact and the investigating body will take these into account but in no circumstances should they be able to prevent publication of the final report.
Aviation safety has to be the primary consideration at all times. This has always depended on all accidents being thoroughly investigated and reported on without fear or favour. It is why aviation safety has improved incrementally over the years.

03-04-2021 4:55pm

Roger_007 wrote: »

This is simply not true. There would very many reports never published if all interested parties had to agree to its contents. Of course interested parties can make observations or point out matters which they consider to be errors of fact and the investigating body will take these into account but in no circumstances should they be able to prevent publication of the final report.
Aviation safety has to be the primary consideration at all times. This has always depended on all accidents being thoroughly investigated and reported on without fear or favour. It is why aviation safety has improved incrementally over the years.

The objections/observations must have been judged to be substantial in this case, enough to potentially affect the future safety of flights.

MoeJay · 03-04-2021 6:33pm

Just to be clear, it is not the AAIU who have ownership of this review process, it is separate and is at the discretion of the Minister for Transport.

Roger_007 · 03-04-2021 6:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The objections/observations must have been judged to be substantial in this case, enough to potentially affect the future safety of flights.

Judged by who?

skallywag · 03-04-2021 6:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The objections/observations must have been judged to be substantial in this case, enough to potentially affect the future safety of flights.

It might not all be about flights.

Stovepipe · 03-04-2021 8:24pm

irishgeo wrote: »

if they are not assigning blame why would anyone have a problem with the report.

I suspect that an organisation or individual may feel that something in the report may give rise to an opinion that that organisation or person is to blame/negligent/inefficient/incompetent (which suggests also that the draft report has been read by a lawyer) and that organisation or person is uncomfortable with that possibility. So,if somebody has tooled up a lawyer, the report can be delayed until it is redrafted. The need to avoid the assignation of blame is sacrosanct,but if there are lawyers involved, it could get very nasty. People object to the findings of reports all the time and it's not confined to aircraft accidents. In terms of transport accidents, the findings of some of the rail and marine accidents in this island alone are eye-watering. If the AAIU went ahead and published the report,without listening to the diverse opinions of interested parties, it could generate court cases immediately. Remember also that this tragic crash wasn't the first multi-fatal accident of it's kind in Ireland;the loss of the AC Dauphin springs to mind and the loss of the Metroliner in Cork was also an eye-opener in many ways. Fatal accidents tend to generate a lot more interest than random non-fatals.

03-04-2021 11:06pm

Roger_007 wrote: »

Judged by who?

I suppose as per above post, maybe the Minister for Transport?

Haven't a clue really as seems to be the first such incidence in Ireland.

Irish Steve · 20-10-2021 6:28pm

Due to some problems arising from the migration to the new Vanilla platform, this thread is not working in the way it should, and it's proving hard to get to see the most recent posts, and harder to get back to them later, so we've made the decision that it would avoid a lot of hassles and frustration to close the old thread, and move the comments made today into a new thread, which should hopefully work in the way it's supposed to.

New thread: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058214043/r116-accident-aaiu-report-discussions

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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