Death of the high street

ams · 01-02-2021 10:59am #1

ASOS announced they have Topshop's online business this morning - apparently before the staff heard according to the facebook post :eek:

AMKC · 01-02-2021 2:04pm

I see Asos just bought Top Shop and some of the other Arcadia brands but do not want there shops. So more jobs gone. Them shops will not be re opening after lockdown. Going to be a lot of empty units in the shopping centres and on the high street.

Twee. · 01-02-2021 2:30pm

Asos have bought the current stock and are transferring a lot of HQ departments (incl buying & design) staff which is interesting and very different to how boohoo have been snapping up businesses. Feel bad for the staff who worked so hard over the last few years when the business has been in difficulty, the sale will just be written off as a victim of covid but this was a long time in the balance.

Twee. · 01-02-2021 2:33pm

Mod note!

New thread! I will move some posts from other threads in here, might distort the order a little at the start but I think it's a conversation worth having it's own thread. We are a bunch of very active consumers in here

Asos buys Topshop https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/01/asos-buys-topshop-topman-miss-selfridge-arcadia

AMKC · 01-02-2021 4:10pm

Twee. wrote: »

Asos have bought the current stock and are transferring a lot of HQ departments (incl buying & design) staff which is interesting and very different to how boohoo have been snapping up businesses. Feel bad for the staff who worked so hard over the last few years when the business has been in difficulty, the sale will just be written off as a victim of covid but this was a long time in the balance.

Yes. I think Boohoo just want the names of the brands whereas ASOS want all bar the Bricks and Morter part of them.
They will have to be big chances along the high streets over the next few years. Not sure what will occupy all them buildings but hopefully something will.
It looks like Burton, Wallis and Dorethy Perkins might be bought by Boohoo.

Twee. · 01-02-2021 6:01pm

I can't imagine what will go into places like Debenhams on Henry St or Blanchardstown in Dublin, two enormous stores. Would love to see a presence of the wider H&M group, Weekday, Arket, Monki. Perhaps someone like Uniqlo would be interested in one of the bigger spots.

road_high · 01-02-2021 11:21pm

Twee. wrote: »

I can't imagine what will go into places like Debenhams on Henry St or Blanchardstown in Dublin, two enormous stores. Would love to see a presence of the wider H&M group, Weekday, Arket, Monki. Perhaps someone like Uniqlo would be interested in one of the bigger spots.

Debenhams store footprints were massive. I don’t know what will fill them either. And it appears our Covid obsessed government don’t either.
Things had only just been recovering since the last recession in many ways on the High st. This has been a hammer blow. Unless some large European retailer comes in that Ive never heard. But they won’t be paying anything like what Debenhams were paying in rents

SmallTeapot · 01-02-2021 11:34pm

Twee. wrote: »

I can't imagine what will go into places like Debenhams on Henry St or Blanchardstown in Dublin, two enormous stores. Would love to see a presence of the wider H&M group, Weekday, Arket, Monki. Perhaps someone like Uniqlo would be interested in one of the bigger spots.

Could you imagine an Irish Uniqlo flagship....That’s the thing of dream right there

similar square footage as the Oxford street one.

Any of the H&M group stores would also be very welcome addition. I know we have &OtherStories, but imagine a supersize one!

Or maybe one (or several!) of the cooler North American shops which have come on stream over the last few years like Everlane, Aritzia, Anthropologie, Madewell.... or Lululemon!

Twee. · 02-02-2021 12:15am

The high street has been reinvigorated with just this thread! Pay attention developers and investors :pac:

I eye up Everlane every now and again, would love to try their jeans.

meeeeh · 02-02-2021 10:23am

I don't think retailers will be lining up to open stores when all the growth is online. With exception of high fashion where shopping is only part of experience. Guardian has a good article yesterday on the subject and basically gen Z don't shop like older generations did. I'm a good bit older and my only shopping in physical stores is when I want to give some business to local stores. I have no desire to drive to Dublin for an hour to cue in the stores.

Bluefoam · 02-02-2021 4:02pm

I like the experince of trying on cloths and getting the fit right...

No loss to see the large British chains go, their locations will hopefull give way to some local small businesses with a focus on local markets...

Twee. · 02-02-2021 4:18pm

What sort local businesses though? There's virtually zero clothing or shoe manufacturing in Ireland.

Bluefoam · 02-02-2021 4:32pm

Twee. wrote: »

What sort local businesses though? There's virtually zero clothing or shoe manufacturing in Ireland.

I'm sure there are buyers out there, or individuals with a fashion focus... those types will have more leverage to get decent sites... maybe focus on individual interestes... vegan, sustainable, slow fashion, traditiona craft based fashion. High end fashion focus... theres plaenty of creative an entrapenurial people in this country. Need to get away from global businesses that have a negative effect on local economy and emploment.

With more focused retailers in locations like grafton street etc, they would also be able to run websites and distribution from those locations.

The core items I picked up this month are the very opposite of fast fashion... Aran Cardigan, Doc's, Wool Shirt, Tweed Jacket...

The Irish market needs to express itself rather than just accepting the cheap crap thats sent from England.

Sunny Dayz · 02-02-2021 5:21pm

Many of these high street shops just don't seem to be popular anymore. For example TopShop: when I was young (teens) TopShop clothes were seen as very trendy, lusted after items in magazines. The only TopShop I think was Dublin or Galway so it was big deal when you got to go there. There was an atmosphere - lighting, loud music, good merchandising displays and achingly stylish store assistants.

But a few years ago TopShop opened in my town and it was so underwhelming. Now at this stage I was probably outside their target market. But the store was boring looking and never seemed busy.

I think a lot of stores, not just TopShop, are lacking in any sort of experience or atmosphere. Clothes crammed onto railings so you can't even see them properly, little effort made on window displays or merchandising in store, store assistants look disinterested and unhelpful. This is all experiences you can't get with online shopping and I think many brands don't put value on that anymore, but then wonder why footfall is down in bricks and mortar stores. What is there to draw you in...?

Twee. · 02-02-2021 6:21pm

Yeah the Topshop retail experience was poor the last few years. When I worked there (10 years ago!) we had to approach every single customer, every staff member would have huge product knowledge, we'd be like personal shoppers when working in the fitting rooms, helping people put outfits together. And I'm talking 16 hour a week student staff, not career retail, that was just how the store was run.

Shops like Bershka, Stradivarius and Zara always seem busy, and the first two would definitely be aimed at a younger shopper. Sadly I think sustainable fashion will stay niche until there's more diversity in product offering, including sizing. A lot is too expensive or just not trendy or fashion-forward enough.

strandroad · 02-02-2021 6:48pm

A lot of it is more like death of the British high street, EU shops seem to fare better if they are smarter and more modern.

Rather than setting up many locations they have single "showroom" experience that one can visit from time to time to get the tone and the vibe of the brand which in turn sets the customer up for better online shopping experience and gets them media coverage to get the ball rolling. COS, Massimo Dutti, Other Stories are probably seeing more online traffic from Ireland than Oysho or Monki or Weekday do even though they are held by the same corporate entities.

Hopefully more and better brands will want similar foothold here now to front their online business.

sammyjo90 · 03-02-2021 9:39pm

I hope its not, I need physical shops!
If i buy something online there is only a small chance I will remember to return it.
Have donated more things than returned at this stage.
Its not like its hard!
As a result of my incompetence I will very rarely buy things online. Haven't bought a single thing since lockdown no.1. i think
I need to get better at it because I could do with an updated wardrobe but with nowhere to go I might as well wait and see!

doublejobbing 2 · 06-02-2021 9:58pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I. I'm a good bit older and my only shopping in physical stores is when I want to give some business to local stores. I have no desire to drive to Dublin for an hour to cue in the stores.

You must like paying over the odds! I can never understand the popularity of ASOS, Zalondo and the likes. All of their stuff is way more expensive than the same products in your local shopping centre/ high street. I seriously don't understand why TV adverts don't highlight this.

Bluefoam · 06-02-2021 10:05pm

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

You must like paying over the odds! I can never understand the popularity of ASOS, Zalondo and the likes. All of their stuff is way more expensive than the same products in your local shopping centre/ high street. I seriously don't understand why TV adverts don't highlight this.

Probably because it's a very general statement and in many instances, untrue

strandroad · 06-02-2021 10:19pm

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

You must like paying over the odds! I can never understand the popularity of ASOS, Zalondo and the likes. All of their stuff is way more expensive than the same products in your local shopping centre/ high street. I seriously don't understand why TV adverts don't highlight this.

As for Zalando, in my experience it's definitely not true. Brand clothes are the same price or cheaper than in brand stores, and sales can take 50% off.

Darc19 · 06-02-2021 10:50pm

There will be no shortage of takers for the prime sites.

Some Debenhams stores will get resized and refurbished.

Most of the casualties were on life support long before covid. Debenhams was seen as such a certainty for closure that both BlackRock and Jervis had alternative planning in before they closed.

There was one company that wanted to take over 3-5 Debenhams stores last year, but the continued strike put paid to that.

Twee. · 07-02-2021 12:18am

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

You must like paying over the odds! I can never understand the popularity of ASOS, Zalondo and the likes. All of their stuff is way more expensive than the same products in your local shopping centre/ high street. I seriously don't understand why TV adverts don't highlight this.

Well that's just not true for loads of reasons. Many of the brands I buy on Asos aren't available on the high street here (eg Monki), purchasing in sterling makes it cheaper than buying in-store for the stores that are available here, there are frequent offers and sales and lastly Asos own brand is good collection in it's own right and obviously only available on asos.com.

AMKC · 08-02-2021 2:13pm

Well its confirmed today that Dorethy Perkins, Wallis and Burtans have all been sold to Boohoo for 25million.

eviltimeban · 09-02-2021 10:54am

For me it's a case of love buying clothes, but hate trying on clothes. So online shopping has worked really well for me. I've bought so much more over the last year than I have previously, and with a good hit rate as well - probably only had to send back less than 10% of what I've purchased.

I rarely find a changing room I like, not because of what I see in the mirror necessarily, more that they are too small, too hot, too bright, often too loud (why does the speaker have to be right above you??) and you can't get a proper look at what you have on. Plus you're more likely to put stuff back. With online, sometimes you'll keep something as you couldn't be arsed to send it back. :-)

So while I'll go into a nice shop like BT for the experience of walking around it, I expect the vast majority of my clothes shopping from now on will be online.

Bluefoam · 09-02-2021 11:09am

AMKC wrote: »

Well its confirmed today that Dorethy Perkins, Wallis and Burtans have all been sold to Boohoo for 25million.

Am I right in saying that they bought the stock and the names, but did not take on the leases?

Sounds like they picked up some cheap stock.

meeeeh · 09-02-2021 11:41am

Bluefoam wrote: »

Am I right in saying that they bought the stock and the names, but did not take on the leases?

Sounds like they picked up some cheap stock.

I don't think it's the stock that would overly interest them. Those brands were in decline but they still have loyal customers many who wouldn't overly be Boohoo customers. They are growing their customer base.

Twee. · 09-02-2021 12:41pm

boohoo never buy the stock or previous customer order data. There was a bad transition stage when they bought Nasty Gal as it transpired NG had not fulfilled tons of orders before handing it over. I remember their Twitter was flooded with complaints! I'm sure lessons were learned!

Both Missguided and Nasty Gal's physical stores were expensive failures, can't ever see boohoo or Asos going for it.

AMKC · 09-02-2021 12:52pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Am I right in saying that they bought the stock and the names, but did not take on the leases?

Sounds like they picked up some cheap stock.

They bought the names but not the shops or the workers in them shops. So all them jobs are gone but hey Boohoo will have a whole new customer base now and at least the names will.live on for a while more.

meeeeh · 09-02-2021 1:34pm

In fairness nobody was going to buy store network often with rent at the level that is more appropriate for hight street at the peak traffic. Corona restrictions made something that was unlikely impossible.

The choice was a few jobs to be kept or no jobs to be kept. I despise Boohoo but the fact that only the likes of are investing into brands is an indicator where the industry is going. Race to the bottom for established high street brands, growth of sustainable and online brands and high profits for luxury brands.

partyguinness · 09-02-2021 1:40pm

I moved to England over 10 years ago and the first thing that struck me was the sheer volume of stores that all looked the same and sold all the same beige tatty stuff. Every High Street looked the exact same and myself and the wife has a little game where we namechecked all the usual stores when visting a new town/city.

Impossible to tell one from the other. It is all quantity over quality.

Ireland is actually a lot better for shopping IMO but that is down to the smaller size which is advantage. Easier to get away with rubbish over here due to the sheer size of the population.

SmallTeapot · 09-02-2021 2:41pm

So I guess we can expect all the ex-DP, Wallis, Burton stock to end up in outlet? I.e. Sold via the TKMaxx ''Mod-box" section and Everything5Pounds.....?

SmallTeapot · 09-02-2021 2:49pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I moved to England over 10 years ago and the first thing that struck me was the sheer volume of stores that all looked the same and sold all the same beige tatty stuff. Every High Street looked the exact same and myself and the wife has a little game where we namechecked all the usual stores when visting a new town/city.

Impossible to tell one from the other. It is all quantity over quality.

Ireland is actually a lot better for shopping IMO but that is down to the smaller size which is advantage. Easier to get away with rubbish over here due to the sheer size of the population.

Totally agree... everything was and I guess continues to be, nondescript... and the number of 'sales' in the retail year is mind-boggling :rolleyes:... even compared to the 90s when the only real 'sales' that I remember were the post-Christmas sale and a sale around summer-time before going back to school.

The high-street now-days is full of inflated RRP's while the vast majority of clothing is sold at some measure of discount.

jos28 · 09-02-2021 2:54pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm sure there are buyers out there, or individuals with a fashion focus... those types will have more leverage to get decent sites... maybe focus on individual interestes... vegan, sustainable, slow fashion, traditiona craft based fashion. High end fashion focus... theres plaenty of creative an entrapenurial people in this country. Need to get away from global businesses that have a negative effect on local economy and emploment.

With more focused retailers in locations like grafton street etc, they would also be able to run websites and distribution from those locations.

The core items I picked up this month are the very opposite of fast fashion... Aran Cardigan, Doc's, Wool Shirt, Tweed Jacket...

The Irish market needs to express itself rather than just accepting the cheap crap thats sent from England.

I love the idea that we could focus on Irish produce. In an ideal world we would all focus on quality and not quantity. As Twee points out though, there are very few Irish manufacturers and I'd love to see that change. Change doesn't happen overnight and perhaps if we encouraged small Irish companies to fill the empty retails spaces they could flourish. Just a thought.
I've been listening to a podcast by Mary Portas called the Kindness Economy. She believes that the standard format of big retail companies is diminishing and promotes a more ethical approach where staff are a big part of the story.
It's a very interesting topic and she has interviewed some interesting people.

eviltimeban · 09-02-2021 3:32pm

The irony is that there's lots of nicer affordable stuff out there, e.g. Cos, Selected, or even Samsoe Samsoe, Arket, and Armed Angels.

I never got the appeal of the Forever 21 style polyester "fast fashion" thing (well besides the obvious, that it was cheap). High streets would be so much better if they had more "experience" shops that sold decent gear that was actually affordable.

Suitsupply have nailed this - the shops are beautiful, the clothes are well designed and made, and they are very affordable. If only they had a store here.

meeeeh · 09-02-2021 3:57pm

eviltimeban wrote: »

The irony is that there's lots of nicer affordable stuff out there, e.g. Cos, Selected, or even Samsoe Samsoe, Arket, and Armed Angels.

I didn't know Armed Angels before and I see they are German brand but the rest are Scandinavian brands. I think they all cater for slightly different older target market.

I've never been the fan of many UK high street brands because I don't think the quality of material was there but they were very good at following and in case of Top Shop even setting the trends. Now Asos and Boohoo are doing that cheaper.

I love Arket and COS but something that appeals to customer over 35 might not be what appeals to customer in their twenties. Add to that Zara and to some extent Mango who target very well broad age range with cheap and trendy stuff and suddenly a lot of the market is gone.

doublejobbing 2 · 09-02-2021 4:37pm

Mr.S wrote: »

Price - on par with individual brand stores, if not cheaper. The only time a brand store is cheaper is when they are running their own sales which not not be on ASOS, but see next point.

Most high street stores are in a permanent state of sales. New items normally don't remain at full price for more than a few weeks. Next truckload of gear arrives from Asia, price down to get the old stuff off the rails.

Sales - ASOS / Zolando have regular sales or discount promotions with drive the cost down even further
Variety & Connivence - 100's of brands and next day delivery - pretty hard to beat that.

I have never seen anything dramatically cheap on these sites, but always see stuff staggeringly expensive. Typically 20 plus more expensive than the same thing I have bought in store, very occasionally same price or a few coins cheaper- certainly not cheap enough to justify the hassle of buying it online.

The only two benefit's of the highstreet clothes stores these days to the average consumer is if you need something instantly, or prefer trying on clothes - but with how easy ASOS make returns, maybe not a big issue.

Benefits-

- Getting out of the house
- paying cash instead of card
- cheaper
- bringing the item home with me, rather than wondering if the delivery man will get the address right, will he bother knocking on the door, or will he throw it over the side gate of a random neighbour
- try ons (albeit curtailed in the current climate, can still try on a top or a jacket at least)
- know exactly what the product feels like/ texture

Everyone I know who buys online seems to find the unreliability as a bit of a fun of the chase, a funny story they can tell about how oversized, wrong coloured or whatever the rubbish they bought was. "What's the stupidest thing you have ordered drunk?" I'll pass thanks. The high street might strike you as expensive if you buy the 200 euro 70's looking rubbish that TK Maxx sells. Actually take a wander around and you will find most places are cheaper than online.

Listen, if you want to pay 20 quid plus more for a magical mystery lucky dip, work away. I'll be down BT, Arnotts and the shopping centres to see if they are all but giving away stuff like they were when they re opened in May 2020.

doublejobbing 2 · 09-02-2021 4:40pm

On the topic of benefits of HS over internet, do you think changing rooms will make a return once this is all over? Or will retailers have gotten used to this way of doing things, as ridiculous as it is (makes getting a pair of trackies or jeans an absolute nightmare, I took a lucky dip on them 3 times in 2020 and thankfully got away with it)

I hope they return but a lot of the staff don't miss them.

mailforkev · 09-02-2021 4:42pm

For a lot of people it’s not even about the clothes, it’s all about the buying. Fast fashion is almost like a drug. Look at Penney’s when it reopened a few months back, queues down the street for cheap tat that nobody really needed. Half of it prob in the bin already. Bricks and mortar retail will survive thanks to this.
There will be some more consolidation and casualties (I’m not sure how Debenham’s lasted as long as it did) but it’s really only the middle getting squeezed, the cheap and fancy stuff is doing well.

jadie · 09-02-2021 5:00pm

I love shopping IRL and browsing, esp. in UK cities, I did find some nice stuff in Matalan, Peacocks and the like over the years. I wouldn't say it's all tat. I liked home bargain, savers and the like- we are ripped off here for beauty and medicinal stuff. Online just isn't the same for me but I did buy a lot on Ebay UK which is now also out of the equation! I will try and support more Irish stores in the future now.

eviltimeban · 09-02-2021 5:29pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I love Arket and COS but something that appeals to customer over 35 might not be what appeals to customer in their twenties. Add to that Zara and to some extent Mango who target very well broad age range with cheap and trendy stuff and suddenly a lot of the market is gone.

True, but over 35s still like to walk down the high street and go shopping.

The Cool · 09-02-2021 6:23pm

I'm a big ASOS fan and buy from them often, have the premier delivery etc and what I like about online shopping is how I can keep items I'm considering in my wishlist or favourites, go away for a day and come back and see do I still want them, so in that way it does cut down my unnecessary spending. But I'd be sad to see the back of high street shopping - some things like jeans would be a nightmare, you really need to see them in person to feel the quality, thickness, stretch, especially being curvy - I could take 10 pairs of River Island jeans into the changing rooms to try, between sizes and styles, and maybe not like a single one of them. Realistically to do that online it means forking out a huge amount of cash to actually buy all the pairs and then going through returns and having to wait for your refund for all the pairs you don't want.
There's also something to be said for being able to pop to the shops at the last minute, maybe deciding on a Saturday afternoon to treat yourself to a new top to wear out that night, or realising the day before a wedding you hate the shoes you were going to wear! Plus the social side of going to the shops for a snoop with a friend. Surely that's what brings a lot of custom to cafes and restaurants too. Online shopping is great for convenience and range, but as much as I love it, it's a bit boring?

doublejobbing 2 · 09-02-2021 6:29pm

eviltimeban wrote: »

True, but over 35s still like to walk down the high street and go shopping.

I do see far more groups of teenagers thronging town than middle aged people, to be honest. With no mortgages, car costs or childcare to pay for some of them probably have more disposable income than the older folks.

I think people who are obsessed with online buying are just louder about it, frankly.

partyguinness · 09-02-2021 6:52pm

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I do see far more groups of teenagers thronging town than middle aged people, to be honest. With no mortgages, car costs or childcare to pay for some of them probably have more disposable income than the older folks.

I think people who are obsessed with online buying are just louder about it, frankly.

Problem now is that groups of teenagers have no part time jobs in order to accumulate cash to spend.

doublejobbing 2 · 09-02-2021 9:18pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Problem now is that groups of teenagers have no part time jobs in order to accumulate cash to spend.

Most of them who were employed when Covid hit have actually never had a better year financially. Got more in welfare than they would have working in most cases, plus fewer entertainment outlets (pubs, clubs, holidays, cinemas) to spend their money for most of the year.

bee06 · 10-02-2021 3:33pm

I’m over 35 and do all my clothes shopping online even pre Covid. I have two small kids, I have no time to be wandering in and out of shops all day like I did in my 20’s. I also find the likes of Cos, Arket etc a bit boring. Lots of greys, creams, black and the whole oversized trend now does nothing for me. I’ve been doing a lot of my shopping 2nd hand the last few months. Depop and Facebook groups. Picked up some amazing bargains as a result.

eviltimeban · 10-02-2021 4:11pm

bee06 wrote: »

I’m over 35 and do all my clothes shopping online even pre Covid. I have two small kids, I have no time to be wandering in and out of shops all day like I did in my 20’s. I also find the likes of Cos, Arket etc a bit boring. Lots of greys, creams, black and the whole oversized trend now does nothing for me. I’ve been doing a lot of my shopping 2nd hand the last few months. Depop and Facebook groups. Picked up some amazing bargains as a result.

I'm with you on the time aspect; though I work in the centre of Dublin so would be a short walk from Grafton street etc, I much prefer to spend my lunch break browsing in a book or record store than clothes shopping. Having to undress from a full suit and tie to try on a t shirt is more hassle than it's worth.

Twee. · 10-02-2021 4:48pm

The Cool wrote: »

I'm a big ASOS fan and buy from them often, have the premier delivery etc and what I like about online shopping is how I can keep items I'm considering in my wishlist or favourites, go away for a day and come back and see do I still want them, so in that way it does cut down my unnecessary spending. But I'd be sad to see the back of high street shopping - some things like jeans would be a nightmare, you really need to see them in person to feel the quality, thickness, stretch, especially being curvy - I could take 10 pairs of River Island jeans into the changing rooms to try, between sizes and styles, and maybe not like a single one of them. Realistically to do that online it means forking out a huge amount of cash to actually buy all the pairs and then going through returns and having to wait for your refund for all the pairs you don't want.
There's also something to be said for being able to pop to the shops at the last minute, maybe deciding on a Saturday afternoon to treat yourself to a new top to wear out that night, or realising the day before a wedding you hate the shoes you were going to wear! Plus the social side of going to the shops for a snoop with a friend. Surely that's what brings a lot of custom to cafes and restaurants too. Online shopping is great for convenience and range, but as much as I love it, it's a bit boring?

I love wishlist features! If there's something expensive I don't want to splurge on I'll watch it on the wishlist and see if the price drops in a sale or I know exactly where it is if there's a discount code on. Or for stuff that I don't really mind the colour/pattern of, I'll watch and wait to get them for cheaper, stuff like scrunchies, decorative hair clips, plain hoop earrings.

As you say there is a whole experience based around in person shopping too. With office life not looking to return and shops closing everywhere it will be hard for small cafes and the likes.

Death of the high street

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