The way forward for LC2021

Wombatman · 02-03-2021 2:41pm

Redpill wrote: »

I thought it was quite strange that the judge mentioned that Belvedere's grades were inflated from previous years and that they were right to be downgraded
but also ruled that historical data should have no impact on results...seems like a contradiction to me?

The case revolved around the assertion that the decision to remove school historical data (SHD) – based on the school’s Leaving Cert performance across three prior years – from the standardisation model was unlawful.

SHD had no impact on the results. The point the judge was making was that had SHD been considered, because Belvedere's grades were inflated from previous years, they would have been downgraded anyway.

This bit is interesting:

Even if Mr Sherry had shown an unfairness, the State was still entitled to argue its decisions on the final model were in the public interest, he held.

Choochtown · 02-03-2021 2:49pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But they didn't say they were removing topics from the paper. They said they were giving more choice, i.e. if you were asked to answer 8/10 questions on a paper, now you might only be asked to answer seven.

I hope your interpretation is correct. "Further adjustments" is very vague and the term "the majority of cases" leaves them further room to maneuver.

It's fairly obvious that they haven't decided what to do yet. (It would be worse if they had and were just keeping it to themselves for a few weeks).

The whole thing is just so random. "A maximum of 3 assessments" Why?
Some teachers will have finished their course and have very few assessments done and may want to give more whilst other teachers have been assessing the **** out of students in fear of no leaving cert and another predicted grades fiasco and want to give none and concentrate on catching up.

And why would students need more time? More choice certainly for those who have not satisfactorily completed the course content. But more time to answer?
Have the lockdowns slowed down writing and thinking speeds?

Choochtown · 02-03-2021 2:51pm

Wombatman wrote: »

The whole point being you can eliminate some material. For example in English you could leave out another poet or in physics maybe leave out electricity. Right now, without the information, you may be covering something in class or revising something that you won't need. Wasting time and effort essentially, from a points accumulation perspective.

Agreed. Surely the sooner teachers are informed, the better.

Waiting until 22nd March seems bizarre and counter-productive.

rainbowtrout · 02-03-2021 3:00pm

Wombatman wrote: »

The whole point being you can eliminate some material. For example in English you could leave out another poet or in physics maybe leave out electricity. Right now, without the information, you may be covering something in class or revising something that you won't need. Wasting time and effort essentially, from a points accumulation perspective.

You can already do that, and students have always done it without altered papers. Also, it is supposed to be an examination of their knowledge of the course. If people are still complaining even with extra choice coming in the next few weeks, might as well just hand them the papers now and tell them to practice it for June, H1s for everyone.

Physics, the example that was given already has a huge choice and teachers regularly leave out whole sections of the course in a normal year. Normally there are four mandatory experiments and they have to answer on three of them. This year there will be five. My guess is from the five different sections of the course to ensure fairness. If a student really wanted to, they could ditch two sections and just study the experiments for three, and narrow the list of experiments down from 24 to about 9. How much more help do they need?

Str8outtaWuhan · 02-03-2021 5:20pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can already do that, and students have always done it without altered papers. Also, it is supposed to be an examination of their knowledge of the course. If people are still complaining even with extra choice coming in the next few weeks, might as well just hand them the papers now and tell them to practice it for June, H1s for everyone.

Physics, the example that was given already has a huge choice and teachers regularly leave out whole sections of the course in a normal year. Normally there are four mandatory experiments and they have to answer on three of them. This year there will be five. My guess is from the five different sections of the course to ensure fairness. If a student really wanted to, they could ditch two sections and just study the experiments for three, and narrow the list of experiments down from 24 to about 9. How much more help do they need?

Hugs, cuddles, some mindfulness and a reassurance that this is a utopia we live in , without pain or fear and all their dreams really do come true :rolleyes:

Wombatman · 02-03-2021 6:12pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Hugs, cuddles, some mindfulness and a reassurance that this is a utopia we live in , without pain or fear and all their dreams really do come true :rolleyes:

Students are training for the big match, yet they don't know what the parameters of the game are. That's the issue. I don't think I can spell it out in a simpler way. It is self evident that, the sooner the fine details are published, the better. Time lost studying something superfluous is time, that could be spent studying something pertinent.

It's not like teachers never whine about the lack of clarity. They spent the last two months whinging about being kept in the dark by Norma.

Str8outtaWuhan · 02-03-2021 6:17pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Students are training for the big match, yet they don't know what the parameters of the game are. That's the issue. I don't think I can spell it out in a simpler way. It is self evident that, the sooner the fine details are published, the better. Time lost studying something superfluous is time, that could be spent studying something pertinent.

It's not like teachers never whine about the lack of clarity. They spent the last two months whinging about being kept in the dark by Norma.

I don't know many players playing in a big match would say "Hmmm, you know what? I think you should determine the score of the match based upon the scores we made during the training sessions"

:rolleyes:

Wombatman · 02-03-2021 6:58pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

I don't know many players playing in a big match would say "Hmmm, you know what? I think you should determine the score of the match based upon the scores we made during the training sessions"

:rolleyes:

I can't believe I have to spell this out. Big Match = Exam. The PG process is a completely separate discussion. Your analogy nonsense.

rainbowtrout · 02-03-2021 7:18pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Students are training for the big match, yet they don't know what the parameters of the game are. That's the issue. I don't think I can spell it out in a simpler way. It is self evident that, the sooner the fine details are published, the better. Time lost studying something superfluous is time, that could be spent studying something pertinent.

It's not like teachers never whine about the lack of clarity. They spent the last two months whinging about being kept in the dark by Norma.

They do know the parameters. There is a syllabus. That's the parameters. And until January they were preparing to be examined based on that syllabus. The notion that they'll do worse because they could potentially waste time on a topic that they won't have to be examined on is nuts.

They'll spend plenty of time revising topics that won't come up at all, despite the choice on the paper, and they'll revise topics also that do come up on the paper and they choose not to answer that question. That is the nature of choice on the exam.

How much more do you want it dumbed down?

Wombatman · 02-03-2021 8:03pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They do know the parameters. There is a syllabus. That's the parameters. And until January they were preparing to be examined based on that syllabus. The notion that they'll do worse because they could potentially waste time on a topic that they won't have to be examined on is nuts.

They'll spend plenty of time revising topics that won't come up at all, despite the choice on the paper, and they'll revise topics also that do come up on the paper and they choose not to answer that question. That is the nature of choice on the exam.

How much more do you want it dumbed down?

Every year students know what form the exam will take. They prepare in that context. Right now the students don't know what form the exam will take. I can't dumb this point down any more.

The department are making the changes, not the students. If you resent the approach they have taken due to the pandemic, take it up with the department. The students have to work with what they get. The simple point is, it would help everyone to know the paper changes ASAP. Do you agree with this????

rainbowtrout · 02-03-2021 9:00pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Every year students know what form the exam will take. They prepare in that context. Right now the students don't know what form the exam will take. I can't dumb this point down any more.

The department are making the changes, not the students. If you resent the approach they have taken due to the pandemic, take it up with the department. The students have to work with what they get. The simple point is, it would help everyone to know the paper changes ASAP. Do you agree with this????

I don't resent it, you seem to though. They've already told you the format of the paper last September. It's not cutting out material, it's providing more choice. You'll know exactly how many questions they'll have to answer in 3 weeks time. It'll probably be one or two less than what they currently have to answer. So they'll be in a better position than they are now. They will survive without knowing this information for another 3 weeks.

I'd prefer that the SEC (because they are the ones in charge of exam papers not the DES) take their time and look at the design of the paper so the exam is fair and provides integrity to the exam rather than doing a slash and burn job for teachers who want to know NOW!!! The reality for most students is that they will have more choice and can tailor their own revision to account for it, or continue to revise all topics to give themselves the greatest number of options on the day.

Rosita · 02-03-2021 9:33pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't resent it, you seem to though. They've already told you the format of the paper last September. It's not cutting out material, it's providing more choice. You'll know exactly how many questions they'll have to answer in 3 weeks time. It'll probably be one or two less than what they currently have to answer. So they'll be in a better position than they are now. They will survive without knowing this information for another 3 weeks.

I think many assume that given the disruption to in-class teaching more choice might actually be to allow for material to be cut out. Many assume that's the whole point.

Three weeks doesn't seem much to wait except that they have only about nine more weeks in school. I think the need to further adjust the papers was foreseeable and this information vacuum could have been averted.

maude6868 · 03-03-2021 6:30pm

Response from JMB regarding query about assessing Leaving Certs. We were of the opinion only 3 assessments could be given. We can assess away as normal.

Teachers are advised to maintain the approach they would normally adopt at this time of the year regarding assignments, homework, assessment and feedback. It is advisable to maintain the modes of assessment that are familiar to students.

When extra assessment is deemed necessary, for the estimated marks process, over and above the assessment normally conducted by a subject teacher in class, the test should be no more than one lesson in duration (maximum one hour) and a maximum of three class tests may be administered up to 14 May 2021. Examples of tests that may be administered are written, oral, aural or practical tests.

Barbeapapa · 03-03-2021 10:53pm

My 6th year student-in-residence has been advised across the subjects at school NOT to go for predictive grades as they will be downgraded. (It is a Deis community school with no other for 40 miles, not very well run but some excellent teachers, so not a top grade school which would have been burned last year and would have abilities across the board as there is no other choice for secondary school in the area.)

I am surprised at this as I read further back on this thread that students might be advised to just focus on the few subjects they might be able to push Up a grade (and if they wanted the experience of an exam, etc). Sound advice, i thought, which I passed on.

I am wondering if this would be a common view from teachers at this point?
It's hard to know how else to get advice (other than gate crashing here) this year.

Rosita · 03-03-2021 11:01pm

maude6868 wrote: »

Examples of tests that may be administered are written, oral, aural or practical tests.

Have to laugh at these cliché-ridden instructions from all and sundry. Examples of tests......written, oral, aural, practical.......

Like, what else is there? Performing your Oral Irish through interpretative dance? I think teachers know what a test looks like.

am_zarathustra · 03-03-2021 11:23pm

Barbeapapa wrote: »

My 6th year student-in-residence has been advised across the subjects at school NOT to go for predictive grades as they will be downgraded. (It is a Deis community school with no other for 40 miles, not very well run but some excellent teachers, so not a top grade school which would have been burned last year and would have abilities across the board as there is no other choice for secondary school in the area.)

I am surprised at this as I read further back on this thread that students might be advised to just focus on the few subjects they might be able to push Up a grade (and if they wanted the experience of an exam, etc). Sound advice, i thought, which I passed on.

I am wondering if this would be a common view from teachers at this point?
It's hard to know how else to get advice (other than gate crashing here) this year.

Historical data won't be included in the standardizing. Any downgrades would be based on the curve and then JC grades of the whole cohort. So if they are a good year, with good JC results they shouldn't have more downgrades than any school. I'm in a DEIS school, first good year last year really in a long time but equally were good at JC so a few downgrades but not even the 20% that would be expected from the national averages.

I'd be recommending, in whatever way I can, that picking a few, between 3 and 5 is about right for sitting the exams. I'd be giving the same advice to family members.

Treppen · 03-03-2021 11:45pm

maude6868 wrote: »

Response from JMB regarding query about assessing Leaving Certs. We were of the opinion only 3 assessments could be given. We can assess away as normal.

Teachers are advised to maintain the approach they would normally adopt at this time of the year regarding assignments, homework, assessment and feedback. It is advisable to maintain the modes of assessment that are familiar to students.

When extra assessment is deemed necessary, for the estimated marks process, over and above the assessment normally conducted by a subject teacher in class, the test should be no more than one lesson in duration (maximum one hour) and a maximum of three class tests may be administered up to 14 May 2021. Examples of tests that may be administered are written, oral, aural or practical tests.

Or how about, let teachers use their professional judgement.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 04-03-2021 10:43am

Treppen wrote: »

Or how about, let teachers use their professional judgement.

Seems to be considered a mad notion these days

Wombatman · 04-03-2021 3:20pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Historical data won't be included in the standardizing. Any downgrades would be based on the curve and then JC grades of the whole cohort. So if they are a good year, with good JC results they shouldn't have more downgrades than any school. I'm in a DEIS school, first good year last year really in a long time but equally were good at JC so a few downgrades but not even the 20% that would be expected from the national averages.

I'd be recommending, in whatever way I can, that picking a few, between 3 and 5 is about right for sitting the exams. I'd be giving the same advice to family members.

The SEC’s Candidate Portal is expected to open in the week of 8 March 2021 to
allow students to make their choices. Students will have approximately one week in which to do this.

Right now I would be advising any student to choose both in everything, if anyway unsure, and then to drop subjects as they go.

There will be three options. NOBODY in a school should be picking "Exam Only".

Wombatman · 04-03-2021 3:34pm

What do people take from this? Change allowed at this point?

The Portal will re-open in late April or early May so you can review your choices.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/state_examinations/leaving_certificate_2020_calculated_grades.html

am_zarathustra · 04-03-2021 4:46pm

Wombatman wrote: »

The SEC’s Candidate Portal is expected to open in the week of 8 March 2021 to
allow students to make their choices. Students will have approximately one week in which to do this.

Right now I would be advising any student to choose both in everything, if anyway unsure, and then to drop subjects as they go.

There will be three options. NOBODY in a school should be picking "Exam Only".

Absolutely, why would you shut down options, especially without knowing the paper structure. A lot have basically committed to not sitting one or two they don't like and are playing wait and see with the rest. It doesn't make much difference to what they are doing in class anyway!

km79 · 04-03-2021 4:59pm

Norma said it will be opening for initial phase next weds 10th March and closing less than a week later on the 16th .

am_zarathustra · 04-03-2021 5:55pm

km79 wrote: »

Norma said it will be opening for initial phase next weds 10th March and closing less than a week later on the 16th .

And then open again in April...........

km79 · 04-03-2021 6:12pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

And then open again in April...........

Oh i know that
I was just pointing out the date was confirmed for next week.
More guidance coming to schools today ....well I guess tonight at this stage

Wombatman · 04-03-2021 6:35pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

And then open again in April...........

But for review right. Not change?

Wombatman · 04-03-2021 7:02pm

Norma on Zoom with ISSU just their.

-Change of mind is possible in May.

-Students who are exam no shows still get AGs if they op for both.

-Students can get AGs at one level (higher \ lower) and do exam at a different level. Level must be specified through portal for AGs.

r93kaey5p2izun · 04-03-2021 7:15pm

New circular issued this evening with further details too.

km79 · 04-03-2021 7:25pm

Thursday 4th March 6pm
“ Before using the Candidate Portal for the first time, candidates will be asked to create their own account and will need their examination number for this process. A matrix of Leaving Certificate candidate entries, showing the subject and level selections for each candidate, has issued to schools this week together with a set of self-adhesive labels, showing each Candidate’s Name, Date of Birth and Examination Number. When you receive this mailing, you are asked to;
o Distributethelabelstoeachcandidate
o Usethelevelselectiononthematrixtoconsiderwhetherthecandidateisenteredat
the correct level and engage with candidates as required
o Checkwhetheranycandidateintheschoolinnotonthematrixorwhetherany
candidate appears on the matrix who has left the school. Such changes must be notified by email to entries@examinations.ie no later than Monday 8 March 2021.”

Are they for real ?
So tomorrow ? What happens if a student isn’t in ?

km79 · 04-03-2021 7:29pm

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-53766126.pdf

am_zarathustra · 04-03-2021 8:05pm

km79 wrote: »

Thursday 4th March 6pm
“ Before using the Candidate Portal for the first time, candidates will be asked to create their own account and will need their examination number for this process. A matrix of Leaving Certificate candidate entries, showing the subject and level selections for each candidate, has issued to schools this week together with a set of self-adhesive labels, showing each Candidate’s Name, Date of Birth and Examination Number. When you receive this mailing, you are asked to;
o Distributethelabelstoeachcandidate
o Usethelevelselectiononthematrixtoconsiderwhetherthecandidateisenteredat
the correct level and engage with candidates as required
o Checkwhetheranycandidateintheschoolinnotonthematrixorwhetherany
candidate appears on the matrix who has left the school. Such changes must be notified by email to entries@examinations.ie no later than Monday 8 March 2021.”

Are they for real ?
So tomorrow ? What happens if a student isn’t in ?

Like if there was some sort of pandemic and they were isolating. Thats a stupid turn around, are all the matrices in schools?

km79 · 04-03-2021 8:21pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Like if there was some sort of pandemic and they were isolating. Thats a stupid turn around, are all the matrices in schools?

Our school 100% did not receive them yet

Mardy Bum · 04-03-2021 8:37pm

Treppen wrote: »

Or how about, let teachers use their professional judgement.

I'm afraid 40 years of research would suggest that this doesn't work either.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1747938X20308344

I am not faulting you just illustrating the impossible position teachers are in. Guessing grades is a fools game and anyone who thinks it is easy is woefully ignorant.

Alex86Eire · 04-03-2021 8:40pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Thats a stupid turn around, are all the matrices in schools?

Ours were done today anyway.

am_zarathustra · 04-03-2021 9:22pm

km79 wrote: »

Our school 100% did not receive them yet

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Ours were done today anyway.

Thanks so in some but not others, that's grand. I'll tip in earlier and see anyway!

Good to know they will have the second window in April

km79 · 04-03-2021 10:02pm

The SEC want the schools to work our all the centers for June by next Friday
But the number of students sitting the exams won’t be evident until the week after
Makes no sense

LW2018 · 04-03-2021 11:15pm

km79 wrote: »

The SEC want the schools to work our all the centers for June by next Friday
But the number of students sitting the exams won’t be evident until the week after
Makes no sense

And then to retain the same class pod / bubble insofar as is possible - which would involve them not shutting down centres early and joining them with others. I have to go back and see the rooming situation tomorrow. How many are people feeling will fit into a centre at 2m apart? The typical rooms we use have students in an exam layout seating plan and allows for 28 at 1m distance. 14 would be too tight a squeeze with the superintendent needs to also be 2m away... is there a ballpark number of max candidates?

r93kaey5p2izun · 04-03-2021 11:21pm

It says a 49m2 room would fit 10 candidates plus superintendent.

km79 · 05-03-2021 12:00am

LW2018 wrote: »

And then to retain the same class pod / bubble insofar as is possible - which would involve them not shutting down centres early and joining them with others. I have to go back and see the rooming situation tomorrow. How many are people feeling will fit into a centre at 2m apart? The typical rooms we use have students in an exam layout seating plan and allows for 28 at 1m distance. 14 would be too tight a squeeze with the superintendent needs to also be 2m away... is there a ballpark number of max candidates?

10
But large gyms/halls can house more than one centre

ethical · 05-03-2021 9:51am

Schools are back only a week and some have had to send classes home already due to positive COVID19 outbreaks amongst Leaving Certs.
The interesting thing is that we do not seem to have gotten any further than before Christmas.I know of a case ,the other day,where a student was Covid positive and yet only one teacher was "named" as a CLOSE CONTACT,yet the student had class with at least 4 other teachers that day with one teacher having two double classes (2 different subjects) with said student ,yet this teacher was NOT deemed a close contact!!! Same as before Christmas,nothing has changed,schools are safe,teachers do not get Covid and Norma is the best Education Minister EVVVVVVEEEEERRRRRRR! Who the fcuk are we fooling!

Warbeastrior · 05-03-2021 1:45pm

ethical wrote:

Schools are back only a week and some have had to send classes home already due to positive COVID19 outbreaks amongst Leaving Certs. The interesting thing is that we do not seem to have gotten any further than before Christmas.I know of a case ,the other day,where a student was Covid positive and yet only one teacher was "named" as a CLOSE CONTACT,yet the student had class with at least 4 other teachers that day with one teacher having two double classes (2 different subjects) with said student ,yet this teacher was NOT deemed a close contact!!! Same as before Christmas,nothing has changed,schools are safe,teachers do not get Covid and Norma is the best Education Minister EVVVVVVEEEEERRRRRRR! Who the fcuk are we fooling!

This is a disgrace.
Norma Foley and this government should be ashamed of themselves.

Bobtheman · 06-03-2021 12:09pm

I think the above is disgraceful but not surprised.
Can I ask if the CBA in English are still going ahead?

Treppen · 07-03-2021 5:59pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think the above is disgraceful but not surprised.
Can I ask if the CBA in English are still going ahead?

CBAs going ahead is laughable, the whole point was that they were done in class.

Bobtheman · 08-03-2021 9:50am

I'm awaiting clarification on them.

Bobtheman · 12-03-2021 7:06pm

I will say it here but in retrospect opening schools in March will be seen as too premature and I can plug being pulled on all kids back in April

Aquals · 12-03-2021 7:11pm

I was thinking the very same thing today, as I was listening to news of an uptick in the 14-day average case numbers this week. I'm starting to think that it's beginning to look less likely that I'll see 1st - 4th years coming back in that week after Easter. But, as always, who knows?!

wirelessdude01 · 12-03-2021 7:59pm

I still think it take a monumental increase in numbers for them to amend any part of the school reopening.

km79 · 12-03-2021 8:33pm

Orals
Teachers going to neighboring schools
Mixing with another cohort of students

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 13-03-2021 1:51am

km79 wrote: »

Orals
Teachers going to neighboring schools
Mixing with another cohort of students

Plenty teachers examining their own classes which is a different kinda weird

Bobtheman · 13-03-2021 9:51am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I still think it take a monumental increase in numbers for them to amend any part of the school reopening.

We shall see

noplacehere · 13-03-2021 11:29am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I still think it take a monumental increase in numbers for them to amend any part of the school reopening.

I have to agree. But with vaccinations still very hard come by if numbers increase fast which seems very likely it would be very risky. Essentially just hoping enough of the vulnerable have been vaccinated so that the hospitals aren’t over run. If we were another month into the vaccines schedule I’d be less worried

The way forward for LC2021

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