The GOAT?

MrStuffins · 18-02-2021 6:39pm #1

It seems that every conversation lately devolves to this GOAT stuff.

So maybe it's best to have a thread on the topic so we can gather all our GOAT thoughts here. Who do you think is the GOAT and why?

Jon Jones:
The youngest UFC Champion ever, he's realistically unbeaten (the only loss on his record being a DQ in a fight he was dominating). His record speaks for itself. 15 wins in title fights and has beaten the absolute who's who. Former champs in Rua, Machida, Rampage, Rashad, Vitor, two-weight champs in Sonnen & DC.

He cleared out two different generations of the 205 division as well. Won the belt in 2011 and held the same belt in 2020.

Cons: Loads of failed drug tests and generally being a bad human being.

GSP:

What a career. The days watching him come up through the ranks to challenge but fall short against the great Matt Hughes were amazing. He got himself back there and completely overtook Hughes to become the greatest WW in the history of the sport. Not as many wins over Champs like Jones (Hughes & Penn the only former WW champs he beat), but only because he was so dominant in his time, having taken over form a dominant champ in Hughes.

Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Carlos Condit, Thiago Alves all could have been champ had GSP not held the belt. Hendricks went on to win the belt after their epic.

He then came out of retirement to win the UFC MW belt, 11 years after winning his first UFC title.

Cons: A glaring one in his KO loss to Matt Serra. After this loss he stopped taking risks and won almost every subsequent fight via decision. Also, his Hendricks win was seen in many eyes to have been a robbery.

Anderson Silva:

Smashed Leben so badly in his debut that they gave him an immediate crack at the title. He then smashed Rich Franklin's nose so badly that every MW in the world simultaneously sh*t their jocks.

He then reigned as Champion for what felt like 17 years. And not only that, he was finishing almost everyone who stood in front of him. Hendo, Marquart, Lutter, Sonnen, Vitor....... his finish of Griffin at 205 was incredible.

Cons: Never recovered form his KO against Weidman. very ropey tail-end to his career. Also, failed a drug test after his Championship reign.

Fedor: The legend himself. Despite not being the biggest HW, being kinda pudgey and looking like the weird mate of your even weirder uncle, he spent most of the 00's beating everyone who was put in front of him. Pride had most of the best HWs in the world at the time, and Fedor was the daddy of them all.

Big Nog, Arona, Coleman, Randleman, Cro Cop, Mark Hunt....... all on mandatory steroids, all smashed by the great Fedor.

Cons: He never tested himself in the UFC. Also, it was Pride so who knows?

Khabib: Unbeaten in his career, and with very few close shaves, Khabib has to be in the conversation. He retired without a loss and finished (?) his career with emphatic wins over the very best in the world. In fact, his last three victories were probably his best.

Cons: Some would say his body of work doesn't stand up to the others on the list.

(Honourable mentions: DC, Aldo, Randy, Mighty Mouse, Nunes, Junie Browning)

Fromvert · 18-02-2021 7:15pm

I've probably contradicted myself countless times on this but right now Jonny Bones is the easy pick for me. I don't care about athletes failing tests anymore, it's all part of the game of top end sport, I care more about his constant fouling with eye pokes but the refs need to just start taking points after every eye poke, accidental or not, it would disappear quickly if they did. He's a dickhead but I don't look to sports stars for a moral compass, they live in a very different world to the rest of us. Great record, he's 15-0 in title fights over the last decade. Pretty sure you could wake him from a coke and booze bender, throw some gloves on him and he'll beat the top contender at LHW.

Miss a year - you're not getting the belt off him
Go on a bender before fights - you're not getting the belt off him
Personal life in turmoil - you're not getting the belt off him
Move up to Heavyweight - he's taking your belt

All the rest I have no issue if someone sees them as the goat, splitting hairs really.

Mellor · 19-02-2021 4:26am

These are the fighters I'd shortlist too. And agree with your pros/cons generally.
If you hold Matt Serra against GSP you have to hold Werdum and Henderson agaisnt Fedor.
Drugs is a flag over Silva and Jones.
Fedor fought a lot of cans. But he beat the best. Khab fought cans too, but he beat the best.

Comes down to Khabib and GSP for me. Purely on championship level success in the UFC. I give it to GSP.
But the bar is not unsurmountable for Khabib, Jones, just yet.

scudzilla · 19-02-2021 4:47am

Chuck Liddell

:D:D:D

scudzilla · 19-02-2021 4:50am

i couldn't vote for Fedor, Silva or Jones because of the failed drug tests and fighting cans, couldn't go for GSP as he was just so boring in the end, never took any risks, and he's canadian

Only leaves Khabib

Mellor · 19-02-2021 5:22am

Fedor fought as many cans, and failed as many drug tests as Khabib.

scudzilla · 19-02-2021 5:28am

Mellor wrote: »

Fedor fought as many cans, and failed as many drug tests as Khabib.

i should have said ..only leaves khabib from that list

i'm old school though, i just gotta go with my man Chuck, tarnished off course by not knowing when to end it but damn, that was a fcukin great era for mma,

Please don't anyone try to talk me out of Chuck being the GOAT, I don't care if you provide me with irrefutable proof that he's not.....HE IS

:D

Mellor · 19-02-2021 5:47am

I meant that if Fedor's cans eliminate him, then shouldn't Khabib's also?

IrishLad90 · 19-02-2021 6:02am

Ken Shamrock as a differential. The man was an absolute icon. Maybe GSP genuine sportsman. Kimbo slice on his route to the top tier.

Mr. CooL ICE · 19-02-2021 8:04am

No mention of Bas? For shame!

It's a nice concise list of nominations there with some fair pros and cons. Just to add my 2c

Jones and drugs: He seemed flakey at times in the latter point in his LHW career against the likes of OSP, Reyes and Santos when he was under more scrutiny than ever. This adds to the failed drug tests blemish as it could suggest he was more reliant on substances than before.

GSP became a smarter fighter after the Serra loss; not necessarily more boring. His fight IQ, combined with his well-roundedness made him a nightmare opponent. He faltered against Hendricks. Detractors would say he ran, but I say he did the smart thing by taking time off as being on top for so long was more pressure than he could handle.

Nothing to add about Fedor. Just wish he fought in the american promotions a few years sooner than he did as it would be easier to establish an opinion of his GOAT status.

Khabib would be GOAT if he had just a few more fights before retiring. I'd consider him to be the most dominant going by sheer number of rounds won/lost.

I'd throw Nunes into the mix. WMMA doesn't have quite the same competition pool but her resume speaks for itself. Gassed against Zingano and learned from it. Gassed against the smaller Shevchenko and scraped past her only to readjust and win their rematch comfortably. Smashed Rousey. Went up in weight and out-cyborged Cyborg. Nobody has come close to her in a long time.

MrStuffins · 19-02-2021 1:15pm

scudzilla wrote: »

Chuck Liddell :D:D:D

The old-schooler in me really hated leaving Chuck off there. What a fighter!

MrStuffins · 19-02-2021 1:17pm

IrishLad90 wrote: »

Ken Shamrock as a differential. The man was an absolute icon. Maybe GSP genuine sportsman. Kimbo slice on his route to the top tier.

If you haven't read his recent autobiography with Jonathan Snowden I highly recommend it. It's an immense read!

MrStuffins · 19-02-2021 1:20pm

Mellor wrote: »

If you hold Matt Serra against GSP you have to hold Werdum and Henderson agaisnt Fedor.

On this, the reason I didn't is because while Fedor's loss v Werdum was the beginning of his decline, GSP's loss to Matt Serra was at the beginning of his sheer dominance over the division. I saw them as two completely separate situations.

derfderf · 20-02-2021 6:52am

Jon Jones is the GOAT* without question. If questionable tests disqualify you, I'm not sure from the rest.
I don't like the guy, I think he's super obnoxious, but if Adesanya's career continues how it's going I think he'll be the GOAT. I think a win over Jan puts him ahead of Khabib.

20-02-2021 7:07am

Georges St. Pierre

Dermobrickie · 20-02-2021 10:11am

I have to vote Jones, mainly because he out wrestled DC who I would have as goat status if he beat Jones.
I think his mix of win types is in matched.
Can't wait to see him at heavyweight.

Or Chuck can't forget him in the goat conversation.

hawaii501 · 20-02-2021 10:23am

derfderf wrote: »

Jon Jones is the GOAT* without question. If questionable tests disqualify you, I'm not sure from the rest.
I don't like the guy, I think he's super obnoxious, but if Adesanya's career continues how it's going I think he'll be the GOAT. I think a win over Jan puts him ahead of Khabib.

I agree with both points on this. Adesanya has cleaned out the MW division with ease after one tough fight against Gastelum.

If he beats Jan, he's automatically ahead of Khabib for me!

derfderf · 20-02-2021 1:40pm

hawaii501 wrote: »

I agree with both points on this. Adesanya has cleaned out the MW division with ease after one tough fight against Gastelum.

If he beats Jan, he's automatically ahead of Khabib for me!

Khabib only really had one tough fight against Tibau, and a lot think he lost that.
As great of a fight as it was, nobody thinks Kelvin won.

xtal191 · 20-02-2021 3:26pm

derfderf wrote: »

Jon Jones is the GOAT* without question. If questionable tests disqualify you, I'm not sure from the rest.
I don't like the guy, I think he's super obnoxious, but if Adesanya's career continues how it's going I think he'll be the GOAT. I think a win over Jan puts him ahead of Khabib.

I've a funny feeling Jan is gonna KO Adesanya

chopperbyrne · 23-02-2021 1:03pm

Bas Rutten is definitely up there.

yourdeadwright · 23-02-2021 5:59pm

GSP for me at the moment
But not sure how anyone can argue against Jones if he becomes a two weight champion ,
The jump form 205 to heavy weight is so big it'll show just how dame good of a fighter he is ,

The only reason he is not top now is the Steroids

Zookey123 · 03-03-2021 10:44pm

I wonder why Jon Jones gets away with being a drug cheat. I can't imagine in any other sport someone who has consistently been caught cheating still being considered as the sports greatest. The fact he can still compete is a joke. Lance Armstrong didn't get away with it and he had the excuse of having cancer Jones is just a horrible human.

MrStuffins · 03-03-2021 10:51pm

Zookey123 wrote: »

I wonder why Jon Jones gets away with being a drug cheat. I can't imagine in any other sport someone who has consistently been caught cheating still being considered as the sports greatest. The fact he can still compete is a joke. Lance Armstrong didn't get away with it and he had the excuse of having cancer Jones is just a horrible human.

Armstrong was caught retrospectively after he retired.

Zookey123 · 03-03-2021 11:02pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Armstrong was caught retrospectively after he retired.

Point being he was ostracized by the cycling community, lost most of his medals and I highly doubt would feature in the cycling GOAT debate. Plenty of UFC fighters have achieved great careers without cheating. IMO GSP is the best. Dominated that welterweight division for years, took some time off and finished MB (another one of my fav fighters) to become MW champ.

Eoinbmw · 03-03-2021 11:45pm

GSP all day an icon and some one to aspire to be like!
A complete sportsman!
Bone Jones is a cheating scumbag and lucky to not be in jail!

Chairman Meow · 04-03-2021 10:36am

Honestly i dont think you can legitimately say "Jon Jones is the greatest of all time" and somehow ignore all his doping fails. He was stripped of the title what, three times?? He had an entire event that had to be moved to a different state on one or two days notice just to get around doping laws so he could fight. And the "pulsing". Weve seen him on stage crying his little eyes out cause he was sooooo sad he got caught.. its not like he was caught once and there was a chance it was a false positive or something, hes been caught repeatedly, through his entire career. He his underneath the octagon from USADA all the way back in 2015!! Hes a serial cheat and while hes an amazing fighter i just dont think you can definitively say hes the GOAT while theres also a mountain of evidence that he juiced for the majority of his career.

Tazzimus · 04-03-2021 1:52pm

Jones and Silva are ruled out for me due to failed drug tests.
Fedor, while a beast, was revered in Pride like a god, so some of that could be questionable as well.

GSP would be my pick, with Khabib a runner up.

Fall_Guy · 04-03-2021 2:08pm

Chairman Meow wrote: »

Honestly i dont think you can legitimately say "Jon Jones is the greatest of all time" and somehow ignore all his doping fails. He was stripped of the title what, three times?? He had an entire event that had to be moved to a different state on one or two days notice just to get around doping laws so he could fight. And the "pulsing". Weve seen him on stage crying his little eyes out cause he was sooooo sad he got caught.. its not like he was caught once and there was a chance it was a false positive or something, hes been caught repeatedly, through his entire career. He his underneath the octagon from USADA all the way back in 2015!! Hes a serial cheat and while hes an amazing fighter i just dont think you can definitively say hes the GOAT while theres also a mountain of evidence that he juiced for the majority of his career.

I completely respect that stance, but for me it's a red herring. Jones didn't even train consistently throughout his career, and while I don't doubt he's taken a heap of drugs over the years, I'd say the vast majority of them were far from performance enhancing! I wouldn't say there's a mountain of evidence that he was juiced for the majority of his career either, though the failed tests are still a big blot against his name obviously. For me the main question mark around him is how much greater his legacy should be than it currently is.

yourdeadwright · 04-03-2021 5:27pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I completely respect that stance, but for me it's a red herring. Jones didn't even train consistently throughout his career, and while I don't doubt he's taken a heap of drugs over the years, I'd say the vast majority of them were far from performance enhancing! I wouldn't say there's a mountain of evidence that he was juiced for the majority of his career either, though the failed tests are still a big blot against his name obviously. For me the main question mark around him is how much greater his legacy should be than it currently is.

So you believe Jon was willing to risk everything for party drugs & dick pills but not on drugs to give himself an edge ……..nah man I don't buy that,

Fall_Guy · 05-03-2021 9:11am

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So you believe Jon was willing to risk everything for party drugs & dick pills but not on drugs to give himself an edge ……..nah man I don't buy that,

I think he may have been willing to use PEDs for sure. But if he was intentionally doping, I just don't see how a lad who skipped training for months and was drinking and doing Coke in the weeks immediately leading up to his biggest fights would have been using them in a way to actually reap the benefits in a meaningful way.

From a moral or principled point of view you could say it doesn't matter and that a cheat is a cheat, but I'm just looking at who I think was the greatest fighter of all time, and I'm doubtful that any drugs cheating he engaged in would have been difference maker for him in that debate, given the big handicaps he placed on his own performances from his recreational activities.

yourdeadwright · 05-03-2021 5:49pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I think he may have been willing to use PEDs for sure. But if he was intentionally doping, I just don't see how a lad who skipped training for months and was drinking and doing Coke in the weeks immediately leading up to his biggest fights would have been using them in a way to actually reap the benefits in a meaningful way.

From a moral or principled point of view you could say it doesn't matter and that a cheat is a cheat, but I'm just looking at who I think was the greatest fighter of all time, and I'm doubtful that any drugs cheating he engaged in would have been difference maker for him in that debate, given the big handicaps he placed on his own performances from his recreational activities.

Your not making much sense

You just said missed months of training at a time so when its time for fight camp he could take Ped's to train harder for longer and recover better ,

He could also take things like EPO to help with Cardio considering as you say he misses months of training ,

In his defence your making him sound more guilty

Fall_Guy · 05-03-2021 6:49pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your not making much sense

You just said missed months of training at a time so when its time for fight camp he could take Ped's to train harder for longer and recover better ,

He could also take things like EPO to help with Cardio considering as you say he misses months of training ,

In his defence your making him sound more guilty

I'm saying he could, not saying he did.

But I'm also making the point that in the world of high level sport and marginal gains, I think that living clean and training year round would lead to far better ability to maximise your potential than living a party lifestyle and going awol from the gym for months at a time and then doping during camps to try and offset some of the damage you've done to yourself during your off time.

Guilt doesn't come into my thinking, just who I think is the best fighter of all time.

I completely accept that many (most, maybe?) would think differently and think that failed drug tests automatically rule you out of the running, but I think each case should be looked at on its merits in the world of hypothetical GOAT discussions!

Eoinbmw · 05-03-2021 7:34pm

GOAT "Greatest" of all time!
How can you be Great and a drug cheat!

timeToLive · 05-03-2021 7:36pm

DJ, Nunes or GSP

Zookey123 · 07-03-2021 1:43am

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I'm saying he could, not saying he did.

But I'm also making the point that in the world of high level sport and marginal gains, I think that living clean and training year round would lead to far better ability to maximise your potential than living a party lifestyle and going awol from the gym for months at a time and then doping during camps to try and offset some of the damage you've done to yourself during your off time.

Guilt doesn't come into my thinking, just who I think is the best fighter of all time.

I completely accept that many (most, maybe?) would think differently and think that failed drug tests automatically rule you out of the running, but I think each case should be looked at on its merits in the world of hypothetical GOAT discussions!

The GOAT by definition wouldn't need to cheat to win and JJ didn't just cheat once, or twice, or even three times he got caught cheating four times. So he potentially cheated in many more considering how difficult it is to actually catch people doping. If JJ didn't need to cheat to win then he wouldn't have cheated. He chose to take performance enhancers knowing what effect it would have on his reputation. Fanboys will continue to defend him though no matter what.

Zero-Cool · 07-03-2021 8:51pm

I give it to GSP but that could open up to Khabib if he ever decided to go at WW and became champ there.

Bones is an unreal fighter but a GOAT wouldn't hide under a cage to avoid a drug test.

I wonder what Junie Browning is up to these days.

yourdeadwright · 08-03-2021 10:55am

Fair play to Izzy for having a go at glory and becoming a contender on this list ,it just didn't pay off,

Wish the likes of Khabib at least gave it a go they didn't and that 's why I wouldn't have them in the GOAT talk

rob316 · 08-03-2021 12:54pm

Jones - while a great talent can't be considered seriously. No other sport would a competitor be considered the greatest of all time after failing multiple drug tests. He's looked pretty **** too since he's off the juice.

Khabib - I think his dominance in fights puts him up there, he beat the outstanding challengers in his division in his last 3 fights easily. I think he could fight 5 more times and still retire undefeated to be honest.

GSP - the GOAT for me, an unbelievable resume of wins against some of the best WW in MMA. Technically superb and a real superstar of the sport. It's a crying shame he has been retired/inactive for his prime years though.

JJayoo · 17-03-2021 10:04pm

Let's say Khabib didn't retire, who challenges him? How many dominant performances does he rack up

MrStuffins · 17-03-2021 11:45pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Let's say Khabib didn't retire, who challenges him? How many dominant performances does he rack up

Nobody.

However, his record doesn't contain the same calibre of opponent as Jon Jones.

If you include Jones in the debate (which I do) then he has to be GOAT over Khabib

yourdeadwright · 22-03-2021 3:45pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Let's say Khabib didn't retire, who challenges him? How many dominant performances does he rack up

For me he simply hasn't fought enough top class guys to in the conversation
How many title defence's ? is it 2 ? not near enough ,

Also the fact he never a mentioned of going up a weight kills his chances for me,

His style is to bully his opponent so his lack of motivation to ever give Welterweight shot which is stacked with big wrestler says it all about how he himself thinks the move would go,

For example if Conor McGregor had of stayed at Feather weight how would people have looked back on him ? The fella had the guts and no fear of losing to go fight bigger guys ,

xtal191 · 22-03-2021 3:58pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

For me he simply hasn't fought enough top class guys to in the conversation
How many title defence's ? is it 2 ? not near enough ,

Also the fact he never a mentioned of going up a weight kills his chances for me,

His style is to bully his opponent so his lack of motivation to ever give Welterweight shot which is stacked with big wrestler says it all about how he himself thinks the move would go,

For example if Conor McGregor had of stayed at Feather weight how would people have looked back on him ? The fella had the guts and no fear of losing to go fight bigger guys ,

McGregor would've easily been the featherweight GOAT if he stayed in that division. For me Khabib is probably the lightweight GOAT but def not overall

yourdeadwright · 22-03-2021 4:05pm

xtal191 wrote: »

McGregor would've easily been the featherweight GOAT if he stayed in that division. For me Khabib is probably the lightweight GOAT but def not overall

Ye no problem with Khabib being the lightweight goat ,

Also the P4P rankings wreck heads Khabib is probably 1 or 2 but refused to change weights then guys like Conor who are multiple weigh champions are further down makes no sense, by the way I'm not a Conor fan he is just an good example to use ,

The Floyd p · 22-03-2021 4:11pm

The GOAT is either Aldo, GSP or DJ. Jones has great names on his CV, but not always at great times in their career. 2 wins over DC easily his best wins, the Gus fight was entertaining but it's not like Gus is this all time great, Jones should have been able to run through him.

GSP has longevity, avenged his losses, fought extremely gifted fighters, and for good measure won in two divisions at the highest level.

Aldo had the most dominant streak in MMA history, going 18-0 over the course of just under 10 years. Best TDD in MMA history. Great varied striking and has good wins post prime.

DJ has the best combination of skills ever, in my opinion. Pretty much no weaknesses in his game. He should have got the nod vs Cejudo 2 and a win like that would be just another feather in his cap.

yourdeadwright · 22-03-2021 4:21pm

The Floyd p wrote: »

The GOAT is either Aldo, GSP or DJ. Jones has great names on his CV, but not always at great times in their career. 2 wins over DC easily his best wins, the Gus fight was entertaining but it's not like Gus is this all time great, Jones should have been able to run through him.

GSP has longevity, avenged his losses, fought extremely gifted fighters, and for good measure won in two divisions at the highest level.

Aldo had the most dominant streak in MMA history, going 18-0 over the course of just under 10 years. Best TDD in MMA history. Great varied striking and has good wins post prime.

DJ has the best combination of skills ever, in my opinion. Pretty much no weaknesses in his game. He should have got the nod vs Cejudo 2 and a win like that would be just another feather in his cap.

Aldo for me was well on course but it he fell apart in his late 20's to be considered the GOAT,

Hard to believe he is younger than the likes Dillashaw & Mendes and the same age as DJ & Triple C

The GOAT?

Who is the Greatest MMA fighter of All Time? 71 votes

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