Establishing a match: a question of probabilities

P. Breathnach · 28-04-2011 12:09pm #1

[I almost feel guilty about posting so many questions and drawing heavily on the expertise of the community here, but I console myself with the thought that the discussions I start serve also to illustrate general ideas about how one should go about things. Today's question is essentially about making a judgement call.]

My great-grandfather, John Walsh, was born in Arklow in the early 1830s. I have two possible dates, 1831 and 1833, and I think 1831 is the more likely. I intend to visit the National Library in the near future to inspect church records, and might be able to firm up on that.

He married in 1876, apparently for the first time, because his "Condition" is given as Bachelor. His marriage record does not give a full address (possibly because the marriage took place in a different registration district -- his wife's full address is given).

I have a location for him in 1878, on the birth record of one of his children. It's on a stretch of road with about 50 houses, mostly small cottages, and I suspect that he was in one of them.

Now here's the interesting matter: I find somebody of the same name listed in Griffith's Valuation on the same stretch of road. This is a record for 1854, when my great-grandfather would have been in his early 20s and, I presume, single. The family name (Walsh) was not that common in Arklow: there are four listed in Griffith's. None bears the given name of his father, who might have been dead by that time.

The question I submit for consideration is this: what is the probability that the John Walsh in Griffith's is the same John Walsh who didn't get around to marrying until more than 20 years later (in his middle age) and lived in the same neighbourhood of 50 houses in 1878?

Wyldwood · 28-04-2011 12:22pm

I guess it's a possibility but you could be on a wild goose chase. You don't seem to have the death date of John's father so maybe try to find if it's in the civil indexes between 1864 & 1876 & then get the cert to see if this address is on it. Does John's marriage cert give any indication if his father is deceased?
It could also be that John had an uncle called John who lived in the same row of houses? It could also have been your John if, as you say, his father was dead & he was official head of household.
It would not have been unusual for a married son to bring his new wife to live in the family home back then.
I think you have a bit of work to do to tie the two records together

pinkypinky · 28-04-2011 12:34pm

Good question.

It could well be him. People didn't move very far in the 19th century unless they were going to a big city or emigrating. However, you just don't have enough evidence to be certain and my gut would say it's a coincidence. Despite the infrequency of Walsh in Arklow, John Walsh is a very common name.

When you come to Dublin, look at the cancelled valuation books (I think someone else mentioned this). If you could find the same name repeatedly over the intervening 20 years, then you'd be in a better position. You should also try looking at the Tithe Applotment books (which are now on Ancestry). They will only give names and a plot of land in a particular location, and people who had land in more than one place are not cross-referenced, so you can get several entries for the same person. What I'm getting at here in a long winded way is that you might find his father's name in Arklow to support the idea.

P. Breathnach · 28-04-2011 2:17pm

Thanks for the replies.

I'm certainly not nailing it down and saying that I know where he was in 1854, but I am intrigued by the possibility.

His father was dead by 1876, when he married: this is hardly remarkable, given that John was in his 40s at the time, and his father's station in life was labourer. I do not have a date of death, but there may be one worth checking for 1866, using the variant spelling "Walshe" (this spelling has never been used in the family, but might have been used by a registration clerk).

The family did not appear to own any property: they were tenants of the Earl of Carysfort (Proby), so I don't think the tithe applotment books are likely to record them.

I was considering the possibility that he became head of household on the death of his father, and that could explain how he might be a named tenant while still young and single. The scenario could also fit in with a late marriage, if he was responsible for looking after his widowed mother, and did not marry during her lifetime.

I am aware of the phenomenon of bringing a new wife into the parental home, but I think of that as a feature of rural life. I have very little understanding of urban life in the nineteenth century.

I accept that John is an very common name among Walshes (and most other families!) so I should not place too much weight on it.

I would be grateful, pinky, if you could tell me something about cancelled valuation books.

Proby estate records could contain the answer, but so far as I can discover, they are not to be found.

pinkypinky · 28-04-2011 2:41pm

Don't discount the Tithe Applotments - this was money paid to the established CoI regardless of your own religion and everyone had to pay it. There's also lists of people who refused to pay it (Tithe Defaulters) on Irish Origins.

Cancelled valuation books superseded Griffith's initial valuation, so you get to see who owned or paid rates on land after the Griffith's period. They are in the same building as the GRO research room (building 7, Irish Life complex, Abbey St, Dublin)

Seo é: http://www.valoff.ie/

You can't search online for the archival material but anyone can go in. Afaik, they do a student discount, if that's any use, but I believe searching is free and it's only for copies that you need pay. Cameras are allowed, I think.

P. Breathnach · 28-04-2011 3:18pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Don't discount the Tithe Applotments - this was money paid to the established CoI regardless of your own religion and everyone had to pay it. There's also lists of people who refused to pay it (Tithe Defaulters) on Irish Origins.

Here is what the National Archive says: "The Tithe Applotment books were compiled between 1823 and 1837 in order to determine the amount which occupiers of agricultural holdings over one acre should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland..." (emphasis mine). I'm not too optimistic about finding the occupier of a small urban house and yard!

Cancelled valuation books superseded Griffith's initial valuation, so you get to see who owned or paid rates on land after the Griffith's period. They are in the same building as the GRO research room (building 7, Irish Life complex, Abbey St, Dublin)

Seo é: http://www.valoff.ie/

You can't search online for the archival material but anyone can go in.

Thanks. I didn't know such a resource existed. That seem to be the key I need to check for continuity between the Griffith's record and the birth in 1878.

Afaik, they do a student discount, if that's any use,

I wish! Maybe I should borrow a student for a day.

but I believe searching is free and it's only for copies that you need pay. Cameras are allowed, I think.

Notes will suffice. Nobody is going to law with any of this stuff. So far, I have not discovered any wealthy ancestors.

pinkypinky · 28-04-2011 3:44pm

Right, didn't realise it wasn't agricultural...

Dun · 28-04-2011 10:46pm

The Valuation Office has a daily research fee of just over €15 - I don't know about cameras, but if anybody does, I would definitely be interested in knowing about it as sometimes I find my own notes from there a bit difficult to decipher, as clear as they may seem at the time.

Also, just a note on the Tithe Applotment Books - note that the land that tithes were payable on varied from area to area. I remember reading somewhere about large tracts of pasture lands held by the "gentry" not being tithed, but smaller potato fields being tithed.

pinkypinky · 28-04-2011 11:02pm

Dun is right - clever people with solicitors would get vast tracts of their land classed as "lawn" or something similar and avoid tithes.

Dun · 29-04-2011 10:42am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Proby estate records could contain the answer, but so far as I can discover, they are not to be found.

Proby: National Library of Ireland, Microfilm Ms. 3149, Rental, 1826. All tenants. Covering areas in the civil parishes of: Arklow; Ballintemple; Inch; Kilbride (Arklow); Killahurler

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My great-grandfather, John Walsh, was born in Arklow in the early 1830s. I have two possible dates, 1831 and 1833, and I think 1831 is the more likely. I intend to visit the National Library in the near future to inspect church records, and might be able to firm up on that.

Presuming they're Catholic:
Arklow (Dublin Diocese): Baptisms Dec 21 1817 - Dec 31 1843 (and other books from 1809 to 1880) - National Library microfilms Pos. 6474 and 6475.

P. Breathnach · 29-04-2011 11:44am

Dun wrote: »

Proby: National Library of Ireland, Microfilm Ms. 3149, Rental, 1826. All tenants. Covering areas in the civil parishes of: Arklow; Ballintemple; Inch; Kilbride (Arklow); Killahurler

Wow! How do you find this stuff? Do you know if that is all there is, or if it indicates that there might be more? 1826 is a little earlier than the date span I am hoping to bridge, but it obviously makes sense to check if there was any Walshes there at that time. I know that in rural areas, long-term occupation of the same address was common enough -- because of the ties to the land. I simply don't know how sedentary urban people were.

Presuming they're Catholic:
Arklow (Dublin Diocese): Baptisms Dec 21 1817 - Dec 31 1843 (and other books from 1809 to 1880) - National Library microfilms Pos. 6474 and 6475.

That's on my to-do list. I hope to find the christening of my great-grandfather, and with it I might be able to get a further location fix. I might also be able to get the marriage of his parents.

Dun · 29-04-2011 11:47am

Sorry, meant to say - Tracing Your Irish Ancestors by John Grenham was where I got those from. Afraid that was the only year listed.

P. Breathnach · 29-04-2011 11:46pm

Dun wrote: »

Proby: National Library of Ireland, Microfilm Ms. 3149, Rental, 1826. All tenants. Covering areas in the civil parishes of: Arklow; Ballintemple; Inch; Kilbride (Arklow); Killahurler

I picked up this reference: National Library, Dublin - Proby records NRS31142.

Suppose I call for it. What might I expect to find? Might it be a large box of unsorted papers? Or can I hope that somebody has indexed it? [The Proby Estate was quite extensive -- not just large tracts in and around Arklow, but big chunks of south Dublin, mainly around Blackrock, and possibly other stuff as well.] Would an effort to trace one labouring-class family over a number of years be a huge undertaking?

pinkypinky · 30-04-2011 1:02pm

It is a microfilm reference so there'll probably be a vague index on it but if you go to the manuscript room and look at the originals, it will be a big box, there may well be an index of it but my recent experience says they won't have an index. But the bigger the file, the more likely there'll be an index. The staff in the manuscript room are helpful though.

P. Breathnach · 30-04-2011 1:11pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

It is a microfilm reference so there'll probably be a vague index on it but if you go to the manuscript room and look at the originals, it will be a big box, there may well be an index of it but my recent experience says they won't have an index. But the bigger the file, the more likely there'll be an index. The staff in the manuscript room are helpful though.

Thanks, pinky. It's probably no great burden to have a look at the microfilm and see if stuff is organised in an accessible manner.

This is getting so interesting that I am almost regretting having booked a holiday for next week, meaning that I can't even consider going to the National Library before the following week!

P. Breathnach · 09-05-2011 9:19am

My speculation about my great-grandfather having been many years at the same address has been well and truly knocked for six. I have now got the birth records of his first four children, and have four different addresses (one of which is not very specific, and the other three are all in the one neighbourhood in Arklow).

It might even be that my belief that he was born in Arklow is open to question. It was based largely on the fact that he lived there in the early years of his married life, and I had no reason to suppose that he had moved there from anywhere else. His marriage record gives his address as "Wicklow"; the marriage happened in Kingstown, so I had interpreted that as an incomplete record, referring to Co. Wicklow.

But Herself has found that there is a plausible baptism record in Wicklow parish that I have to check out.

P. Breathnach · 30-05-2011 9:35pm

I'm still struggling with my great-grandfather and his origins. There is a good deal of stuff available post-1876, the year he married, but I have not been able to find any definite trace before that.

I take it that he was born about 1833 (from both his GRO death record and his burial record in Glasnevin which are consistent with one another -- he died in 1899 and his age was given as 66).

I take it that he was from Co. Wicklow, because I have a number of records dated before 1884, and they all locate him in the county; his church marriage record also gives Wicklow as his parents' address.

I have his parents' names, also from the church record of his marriage: Patrick Walsh and Mary Byrne. Not exactly rare names. But using RootsIreland, I find only one couple of that name combination in Wicklow producing children in the right time frame, and none of their children is recorded as John. Four of the five children I have found have names that are used in the succeeding generations, and the family location is in Woodenbridge, near Arklow. That chimes with an impression I carry from my childhood, that there was some family sentiment concerning Woodenbridge, one that I never understood.

It looks like a complete picture except for one thing: there is no record of the christening of my great-grandfather -- the most important fact I am seeking.

The immediate plan is to look at the Arklow church records again to see if a record has been missed or perhaps misread. But if there is no record, what am I to think? I lean towards believing that I have found the family.

Have people here come across this kind of thing (by which I mean that there is no record made of a christening that probably happened in that parish)?

shanew · 31-05-2011 8:37am

There are sometimes damaged, missing or badly faded pages in the the register that may have been impossible to decipher for the transcription on RootsIreland. A check of the film should show if there are any issues during the timeframe of interest...

It's also possible that at the time of your great-grandfather's baptism the family lived in a parish where the records dont go back far enough..e.g. Kilbride to the north

Shane

P. Breathnach · 31-05-2011 11:00am

shanew wrote: »

There are sometimes damaged, missing or badly faded pages in the the register that may have been impossible to decipher for the transcription on RootsIreland. A check of the film should show if there are any issues during the timeframe of interest...

It's also possible that at the time of your great-grandfather's baptism the family lived in a parish where the records dont go back far enough..e.g. Kilbride to the north

I will be checking the microfilm later this week.

My target date is about 1833. The birth records I have found are dated 1830, 1835, 1837, and 1839, all in Arklow parish, and three with the extra information of a specific townland. There is also a Griffith's entry (about 1852) showing a Patrick Walsh in that townland. Add to that this shadowy memory of a family sentiment about Woodenbridge, and I suspect that the family was more fixed in place than the rather mobile following generation (I have seven addresses for my great-grandfather between 1876 and 1899).

Woodenbridge is on the road between Arklow and Avoca, close to the boundary between the two parishes, and Avoca parish church is as conveniently close as Arklow, perhaps slightly more so. I don't know how territorial priests were back then, but I must consider the possibility that they used the church in the next parish. The relevant records are indexed in rootsireland, and there are no matches -- in fact, there are no matches anywhere in Co. Wicklow.

It looks to me that if I found a christening record for John Walsh that fits into that family, I could say I have things nailed down. What I am wondering about is whether, without that keystone, my structure can stand anyway.

shanew · 31-05-2011 12:43pm

since you have both parents names from your great-grandfather's marriage and some possible baptisms of children with the same names it seems very likely that you have found a family ... i.e. sibling of your great-grandfather

since the names are reasonably common I suppose there is a small theoretical chance that there were two couples of this name combination - but that seems very unlikely given the fact that all the records relate to quite a small area.

S.

shanew · 31-05-2011 12:50pm

forgot to mention - I have a few missing baptisms in some of my lines also.. even though the records for their parishes are complete and legible. Never figured out where they were baptised - assuming they were. These were farming people and I dont think they would have done much travelling.

I am guessing maybe baptised in the parish of a relative, baptised in a chapel of ease and not transferred to the parish records in error ... or simply left out of the records by mistake ?

Shane

P. Breathnach · 31-05-2011 2:00pm

Thanks, Shane. It reassures me that somebody as practised as yourself makes a similar judgement to mine, and that missing baptism records are not an unheard-of problem.

In my mind, the family identification is a near-certainty rather than a certainty: it's not yet written into my family tree.

P. Breathnach · 03-06-2011 11:35am

Okay, I have looked again at the Arklow parish records. He is not in them. The records are legible (subject only to very minor problems with handwriting quality) and the books themselves seem not to have suffered damage, and to have been imaged well. I also checked Avoca, and he seems not to have been recorded there either.

The family location is about 3-4 miles from Arklow, and there is a chapel of ease there now, although I don't know what the setup was like in the 1830s. I'm going with Shane's suggestion that there might have been a failure to transfer data from a chapel of ease to the main register.

Establishing a match: a question of probabilities

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