Have any unionist politicians been elected to Dail Eireann since independence?

Blisterman · 02-01-2011 2:45pm #1

I'm curious to know this. Certainly there were a good few unionists around Dublin and the border counties after independence. Did they ever manage to elect anyone to the Dail? And if so, did they take their seats or abstain?

PatsytheNazi · 02-01-2011 3:29pm

Blisterman wrote: »

I'm curious to know this. Certainly there were a good few unionists around Dublin and the border counties after independence. Did they ever manage to elect anyone to the Dail? And if so, did they take their seats or abstain?

Well the unionists won a seat in Rathmines Dublin in the 1918 election. Rathmines would have been where the posher lived, British civil service etc. They also won a few seats in Trinity, which was what was known as a rotten borough i.e. a gerrymandered constituency ( come to think of it, isn't that waht the six county state is :mad: ).

From what I remember they joined Cumann na nGaedheal ( Fine Gael) after the Treaty. The Senate was said to have been set up with them greatly in mind as a sort of token seat of influence in that talking shop.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 02-01-2011 4:55pm

As far as I know a few were elected as independents. Never more than a small presence in the Dail.

jonniebgood1 · 02-01-2011 7:57pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well the unionists won a seat in Rathmines Dublin in the 1918 election. Rathmines would have been where the posher lived, British civil service etc. They also won a few seats in Trinity, which was what was known as a rotten borough i.e. a gerrymandered constituency ( come to think of it, isn't that waht the six county state is :mad: ).

From what I remember they joined Cumann na nGaedheal ( Fine Gael) after the Treaty. The Senate was said to have been set up with them greatly in mind as a sort of token seat of influence in that talking shop.

Interesting question OP. It is worth researching as the war of independence obviously had an effect on the unionist populations location. I know that Cork for example had a large unionist population and was known as a loyalist city at the turn of the century. The disipation of this influence is interesting.

There were 4 unionists in the house of commons (this being the legal Irish parliament until the treaty) after the 1920 Government act. The 124 other than unionist electees formed the 2nd Dail, with the 4 unionists abstaining from this. The house of commons required an oath of allegiance to the King, thus the 124 nationalists (Sinn Fein) elected would not attend. They did however meet to vote to accept the Anglo-Irish treaty (including the 4 unionists), but not under the proper terms of the House of commons act.

owenc · 02-01-2011 9:14pm

Blisterman wrote: »

I'm curious to know this. Certainly there were a good few unionists around Dublin and the border counties after independence. Did they ever manage to elect anyone to the Dail? And if so, did they take their seats or abstain?

Are you foreal unionists in southern ireland you haven't a hoping. Also why would they be there when southern ireland has already left the uk so it can't get in. And your question i don't think so what would be the point they wouldn't get anywhere plus people in southern ireland would beat them to hell if you know what i mean.

owenc · 02-01-2011 9:15pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

As far as I know a few were elected as independents. Never more than a small presence in the Dail.

Flip me are there still unionist parties in southern ireland whats the point?? They can't join the uk they don't want them.

Johnmb · 02-01-2011 10:31pm

owenc wrote: »

Are you foreal unionists in southern ireland you haven't a hoping. Also why would they be there when southern ireland has already left the uk so it can't get in. And your question i don't think so what would be the point they wouldn't get anywhere plus people in southern ireland would beat them to hell if you know what i mean.

If you don't know the answer, why are you getting involved in the thread with what are fairly silly statements? Of course there were unionists in the rest of Ireland, that's not only obvious from a common sense point of view, but fairly well documented. It is a very good question by the OP, and very interesting.
Another question to ask is also, what were the unionists aims after independence? Did they actually want to try for reunification, or did they just want to keep close ties with the UK, but get on with being a fairly independent country?

Denerick · 02-01-2011 11:30pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

From what I remember they joined Cumann na nGaedheal ( Fine Gael) after the Treaty. The Senate was said to have been set up with them greatly in mind as a sort of token seat of influence in that talking shop.

Cosgrave was eager to keep the Anglo Irish aristocracy within Ireland, and I think that was one of the reasons why the Senate was established. The old class may not have had much financial capital left, but it was a dwindling population that had practically disappeared by 1923.

The border counties had and still have large Protestant populations. As far as I can tell from personal observation of my Protestant neighbours, most are involved in the Fine Gael party.

jonniebgood1 · 02-01-2011 11:43pm

It seems that the few Unionists that were elected after the Anglo-Irish treaty did attend and rather than disrupt proceedings they chose to accept the majority had chosen a different path than they had wanted. The Dockrell family are family dynasty that has its roots with Unionist traditions and they have continued their input until recent times although obviously pushing Unionist links would not help get anyone elected in recent times. Indeed it seems it has been used against some of them as seems to have been done by one of our (hard to take seriously) prime media mouth piece John Drennan- see link for Maurice Dockrells rebuke of Drennan http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/dockrell-replies-515230.html

Sir Maurice Dockrell was elected to the 1st Dail http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?id=8521
His son Henry Dockrell was elected for Cumman na Gael and Fine Gael and their family are still involved. http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?id=1771

It also seems that Sir Maurice Dockrell had a role in establishing peace after the civil war, in other words he was partaking in the establishment of the seperate Irish state despite his Unionist background see page 215 & 216 of link http://books.google.ie/books?id=xscRAhBt2JgC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=sir+maurice+dockrell&source=bl&ots=8p81j3oS_M&sig=-5z2Qq8RF3gxLo-0S9b43MP21po&hl=en&ei=GvogTeKlOIq4hAebpJS3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=sir%20maurice%20dockrell&f=false

jonniebgood1 · 02-01-2011 11:52pm

Denerick wrote: »

Cosgrave was eager to keep the Anglo Irish aristocracy within Ireland, and I think that was one of the reasons why the Senate was established. The old class may not have had much financial capital left, but it was a dwindling population that had practically disappeared by 1923.

The border counties had and still have large Protestant populations. As far as I can tell from personal observation of my Protestant neighbours, most are involved in the Fine Gael party.

Regarding the population dwindling their is an interesting view on this part of which comes form Peter harts alternative views on the Cork area of conflict being :

Between 1911 and 1991, Catholics rose as a proportion of the population of Northern Ireland from 34 per cent to at least 38 per cent (by some reckonings now substantially more). Over the course of this century, McDowell points out, the number of Protestants in what is now the Irish Republic fell from more than 10 per cent to less than 3 per cent. If those figures applied to minorities in any other two adjacent territories in Europe, it is hard to believe that any historian would claim it was the latter minority that had been cosseted.

taken from http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/southernunis.htm
EDIT: last link is to a review of McDowells book, not Harts.

Denerick · 03-01-2011 1:08am

There are various explanations for the dramatic decline of the Protestant population in Southern Ireland, many of which are rather dishonourable. On the other hand I don't agree with the late Peter Hart that it amounted to anything like an ethnic cleansing (He does use that phrase in an essay) R.B. Mc Dowell wrote a fantastic book about the decline and fall of the southern Unionist, I recommended it to someone before.

PatsytheNazi · 03-01-2011 3:57pm

Denerick wrote: »

Cosgrave was eager to keep the Anglo Irish aristocracy within Ireland, and I think that was one of the reasons why the Senate was established. The old class may not have had much financial capital left, but it was a dwindling population that had practically disappeared by 1923.

Yes that's true about Cosgrave and the Senate ( interestingly this very day the Labour Party are pushing for it's ending). My grandfather was from Leitrim and he used to take a proud satisfaction when he used to refer to Anglo Irish aristocracy as the broken down gentry

The border counties had and still have large Protestant populations. As far as I can tell from personal observation of my Protestant neighbours, most are involved in the Fine Gael party.

Yes that's quite true. Now I have Googled but I cannot find any specifics so I'm doing this from memory, possibly from Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, but I believe that at partition there was a vague political movement called the Protestant Association in Monaghan who had one or two councillors elected to the county council.

Anyway, in the first few weeks of the Treaty they requested a meeting with Micheal Collins. When the delegation arrived they seemed to be, sort of intimadated to meet this "terrorist" and seemed to expect to meet a kind of Ivan the Terrible figure !!! When they met Collins he was literally flabergasted as the asked him " Would Protestanst be allowed to live in the new Free Sate ". A flabbergasted Collins making politie inquires discovered how much the media of the day had protrayed him as a sort of baby eater.

PatsytheNazi · 03-01-2011 4:11pm

Denerick wrote: »

There are various explanations for the dramatic decline of the Protestant population in Southern Ireland, many of which are rather dishonourable. On the other hand I don't agree with the late Peter Hart that it amounted to anything like an ethnic cleansing (He does use that phrase in an essay) R.B. Mc Dowell wrote a fantastic book about the decline and fall of the southern Unionist, I recommended it to someone before.

Agreed. Hart, Eoghan Harris and co. regarding " ethnic cleansing and genocide " in Cork. Appearently the death of 9 or 10 people in Cork is genocide - according the the likes of Harris :rolleyes:

So far the discussion has focused on Protestant unionists, but what about the Catholic unionists. Surely those known as "Castle Catholics" should be included ? One notorious one who springs to mind was William Joyce otherwise known as Lord Haw Haw.

( This is a good discussion and hopefully the thread will be kept free of those with the " ethnic cleansing and genocide " agenda - though I expect it wouldn't. )

jonniebgood1 · 03-01-2011 5:05pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So far the discussion has focused on Protestant unionists, but what about the Catholic unionists. Surely those known as "Castle Catholics" should be included ? One notorious one who springs to mind was William Joyce otherwise known as Lord Haw Haw.

( This is a good discussion and hopefully the thread will be kept free of those with the " ethnic cleansing and genocide " agenda - though I expect it wouldn't. )

It is slightly before the Dail but worth noting that the leader of the Ulster Unionist movement was Edward Carson, a dubliner. He was an MP for Dublin University. His reason for initially becoming more involved with Ulster rather than Irish Unionists was that he believed that they could prevent both the separatist movement and also prevent the partition of Ireland. When the country was partitioned he resigned as he felt it was a defeat.

Simarillion · 04-01-2011 12:36am

I think there were three types of unionists in the state following independence.

Those who could not face the thought of being governed by a Dublin parliament composed of men and women who had spent the last few years terrorising the country or had been targeted and either burned out or had experienced terror at the hands of the IRA. Many of these left Ireland.

Those who also couldn't see themselves as part of this new Ireland but still considered themselves Irish and wanted to stay in their own country but were still unsure how they were viewed by the general population and the new political powers. This group predominantly kept there heads down, did not push their views or make them widely known nor did they take part in political discussion outside of their own. This group is the largest and includes everyone from working class of inner city Dublin to the upper class land owners, gentry and Irish peers. Most of the Irish peers who remained in the county would be part of this group, and many became part of the "Descendecy" as they were called.

The third group involves those who continued their lives much as before in that they remained publicly obvious is their allegiences, promoting the work of the Southern Irish Unionist Party lead by Lord Middleton, and attempted to represent their minority group on a political scale. Others in this group include, Oliver St.John Gogarty, Sir Horace Plunket, The Dockerell family etc.

But it is still obvious that as a group within the state, unionists do not exist as a potential political entity. There are many who might profess to other beliefs in backrooms but not to a journalist. Much of it had to do with the fact that the predominant support of unionism in 1920's Ireland came from the Protestant population and with it's decline came the decline of unionism in the South. The remaining population of Protestants in the south play a minor position in politics preferring not to speak out unless it is absoutely necessary. As seen by the minority of Protestant members of the Dail

Cosmo Kramer · 04-01-2011 1:11am

Denerick wrote: »

The border counties had and still have large Protestant populations. As far as I can tell from personal observation of my Protestant neighbours, most are involved in the Fine Gael party.

I'm glad I stumbled upon this interesting discussion.

From my (admittedly limited) discussion on this with the few Northern Irish unionists I know, it seems there was a fair bit of border crossing in the aftermath of partition. Many unionists who ended up on the 'wrong' side of the divide sold up and moved across, often a very small distance such as from Leitrim or Monaghan to Fermanagh, but hugely different in political terms of course. I don't know how much this contributed to the overall decline in protestantism/unionism in the republic at that time. Of course there has been similar movement in the opposite direction as well with the northern heritage of many who now live in the 'new town' of Shannon being an example.

Denerick, in terms of your protestant neighbours, as most would have been descendants of unionists from that period, would they still consider themselves as unionists today? Similarly, do descendants of unionists elsewhere in the country still consider themselves to be unionists based on their heritage or have they mostly been assimilated into the prevaling nationalist psyche at this stage?

I was listening to a show on the Donegal SW by election on Newstalk recently and the candidates were discussing the Finn Valley as an unusual area in terms of protestant demographics with as much as 40% of the population tracing their ancestry to the Plantation of Ulster and the area having strong links to the Orange Order. Is there or would there be sufficient population there to elect a unionist Councillor or is there any will amongst those people for something like that to happen? Or would those members of the Order also be Fine Gael supporters?

I'm actually a bit fascinated by this, unionists in the republic are pretty much a forgotton minority really.

PatsytheNazi · 04-01-2011 2:54pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm glad I stumbled upon this interesting discussion.

From my (admittedly limited) discussion on this with the few Northern Irish unionists I know, it seems there was a fair bit of border crossing in the aftermath of partition. Many unionists who ended up on the 'wrong' side of the divide sold up and moved across, often a very small distance such as from Leitrim or Monaghan to Fermanagh, but hugely different in political terms of course. I don't know how much this contributed to the overall decline in protestantism/unionism in the republic at that time. Of course there has been similar movement in the opposite direction as well with the northern heritage of many who now live in the 'new town' of Shannon being an example.

The reason for the large number of nationalists in the Shannon area was due to the pogroms of 1969. Many of those burnt out in the north were staying in military camps such as the Curragh or with relations. The govt had been developing a lot of housing in the 'new town' of Shannon in anticipation of industrial growth in the area adjacent to the airport. Hence a lot of people from the north were granted this needy housing.

Denerick, in terms of your protestant neighbours, as most would have been descendants of unionists from that period, would they still consider themselves as unionists today? Similarly, do descendants of unionists elsewhere in the country still consider themselves to be unionists based on their heritage or have they mostly been assimilated into the prevaling nationalist psyche at this stage?

There are a few orange lodges in the border counties, Donegal in particuliar, which I would imagine are of little interest to the vast majority of Protestants in the south as any one else. There is also a crackpot of an organisation called Reform which basically consists of a handful of members, most of them with links to Sir Tony's Independent newspapers such as Ruth Dudley Edwards.

I was listening to a show on the Donegal SW by election on Newstalk recently and the candidates were discussing the Finn Valley as an unusual area in terms of protestant demographics with as much as 40% of the population tracing their ancestry to the Plantation of Ulster and the area having strong links to the Orange Order. Is there or would there be sufficient population there to elect a unionist Councillor or is there any will amongst those people for something like that to happen? Or would those members of the Order also be Fine Gael supporters?

I'm actually a bit fascinated by this, unionists in the republic are pretty much a forgotton minority really.

There was a unionist movement pre 1922 called the Irish Unionist Alliance. It dissolved in 1922 as there's not much point in claiming to lay allegiance to a country that had rejected them. Some of its leading figures, such as the Earl of Midleton, Lord Dunraven, James Campbell and Horace Plunkett (a cousin of Count Plunkett), were appointed in December 1922 by WT Cosgrave to the Free State's first Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Unionist_Alliance#Social_position

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 3:31pm

There seems to be an assumption that Protestantism, unionism and the Orange order are all inextricably linked, which they very much are not.

I live in the parish that has the largest number of Anglicans in the country and there are no orange lodges in Dalkey as far as I know and I'm not aware of any great Passion for fine gael.

Sure, there are plenty of descendants of the old British ruling class here, but they are all Irish through and through.

I don't know if any of them harbour any great desires for Ireland to rejoin the union, but I have never heard anyone say it. Most are more interested in Leinster rugby tbh.

Judgement Day · 04-01-2011 3:56pm

+100 Fred - sadly.

I'm a true throwback as amongst all my friends who I was at school with (98% black protestant) I am one of very few who still march to a different tune. Brought up the wrong side of an artificial border but an 'old' leopard that is incapable of changing its spots. I'm disappointed but resigned to ploughing my own lonely furrow - even my kids find my pro-monarchist, anglophile beliefs a tad odd. In time honoured fashion I'll keep my head down. Munster Rugby BTW!

PatsytheNazi · 04-01-2011 4:28pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

+100 Fred - sadly. I'm a true throwback as amongst all my friends who I was at school with (98% black protestant) I am one of very few who still march to a different tune. Brought up the wrong side of an artificial border but an 'old' leopard that is incapable of changing its spots. I'm disappointed but resigned to ploughing my own lonely furrow - even my kids find my pro-monarchist, anglophile beliefs a tad odd. In time honoured fashion I'll keep my head down. Munster Rugby BTW!

Ah, in a word - troll :rolleyes:

Judgement Day · 04-01-2011 4:30pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Ah, in a word - troll :rolleyes:

Care to expand?

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 4:41pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Care to expand?

Patsy is obviously an Ulster fan.

PatsytheNazi · 04-01-2011 4:49pm

One aspect of southern unionism that should not be overlooked is that it was not a bunch of harmless eccentrics. Secterianism in any form is wrong, whether it be in the form of the Fethard-on-Sea boycott or a crazed priest denouncing Jewish people in Limerick. But nevertheless, whatever secterianism came from the nationalist side, it was far, far from been equal in measure to that perpetrated by unionism before and after partition.

For example anti-Catholic pogroms centred on Belfast shipyards were initiated in July 1920 by unionist leader Edward Carson. Over 10,000 were said to have been driven from their work within two weeks, including “rotten Protestants” (ie socialists) who objected and 1,500 Catholic ex-British army servicemen. Then there was Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson from Longford, was an extreme bigot and was shot dead in London on the orders of Micheal Collins/Rory O'Connor who believed him to be one of the main hidden hands instigating the unionist pogroms in the north east. Then ofcourse there was the blatant sectarian employment practices in such as Guinness's etc

PatsytheNazi · 04-01-2011 4:52pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Patsy is obviously an Ulster fan.

Follow Leinster in rugby, but at least I'm not a Walter who cliams to live in Dalkey

Judgement Day · 04-01-2011 4:56pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Follow Leinster in rugby, but at least I'm not a Walter who cliams to live in Dalkey

You follow a garrison game - I'm astounded.

PatsytheNazi · 04-01-2011 5:11pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

You follow a garrison game - I'm astounded.

Amazing, it must make me errrr, ehmmm, 1% unionist

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 5:35pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Follow Leinster in rugby, but at least I'm not a Walter who cliams to live in Dalkey

Huh?

Pop into Finnegans Friday and I'll buy you a pint of protestant porter.

Le King · 04-01-2011 5:44pm

So Dalkey has the biggest Anglican Parish and it brought us the plague in the 14th century.

Down with that sort of thing.

owenc · 04-01-2011 5:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There seems to be an assumption that Protestantism, unionism and the Orange order are all inextricably linked, which they very much are not.

I live in the parish that has the largest number of Anglicans in the country and there are no orange lodges in Dalkey as far as I know and I'm not aware of any great Passion for fine gael.

Sure, there are plenty of descendants of the old British ruling class here, but they are all Irish through and through.

I don't know if any of them harbour any great desires for Ireland to rejoin the union, but I have never heard anyone say it. Most are more interested in Leinster rugby tbh.

They are linked, well at least in northern ireland, the protestants in Northern Ireland are all a completely different branch to the protestants in Southern Ireland the protestants in southern ireland are no different to catholics due to anglicanism. Presbyterians are very different to anglicans its a whole different culture thats why presbyterians wouldn't be caught dead playing galeic or learning irish and church of ireland ones would, infact they have absorbed into the irish culture so much that most of them have converted to becomes catholics. Anglicans are so far out compared to presbyterians most don't even consider them to be true protestants sure in the church of ireland when they are saying that we believe in god thing, they say "we believe in one holy and absobtic catholic church"!! Infact they aren't protestants they are reformed catholics.

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 5:53pm

Le King wrote: »

So Dalkey has the biggest Anglican Parish and it brought us the plague in the 14th century.

Down with that sort of thing.

Bulloch and Coliemore harbours used to be the main trade ports into Ireland, so its not surprising the plague came in through there.

Simarillion · 04-01-2011 5:56pm

Lets leave the Belfast pogroms, Fethard-on-Sea, the Clifden orphanage, Coolacrease etc. etc. well alone. This is a discussion on unionism and as has been mentioned unionism is not a synonym for Protestantism!

Unionism in Ireland was the most popular stance before they blew-up the post office in 1916, and following the execution of the leaders the political pendulum swung to the opposing side.
Unionists in Ireland included many people from all walks of life, but it is fair to say that the leaders of the unionist movements in Ireland were predominantly Anglican landowners.

Most of my family supported the unionist cause following partition, however they were and are still Irish to the core. Nowadays I don't think any of my family are interested by the cause to establish a link with Great Britain.
I think those involved in the Reform Party have some very good ideas, and would definitely interest me as a political entity were they to run, but they also have some major flaws as do all political parties in Ireland.

The idea that the only link of unionism in Ireland is the Orange lodges in the border counties is also flawed in my own opinion. Anyone I know in Ireland who has any sympathy for a union with GB or who comes from a family who did, thinks that the majority of the Orange Order is nothing but a club for bigots, and does nothing but give Protestants in the rest of the country a bad name. There are a few lodges who predominantly benefit the community much as the Freemasons do, but their public persona needs major revamping!

Have any unionist politicians been elected to Dail Eireann since independence?

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