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Ongoing religious scandals

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    #3422
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    My reading of it that he was covering up the abuse first and foremost and removing specific opportunity for repetition. While this was most certainly motivated to protect the church on the one hand, on what basis do you suppose he also had equal concerns for the welfare of those being abused? Failing to report the abusers to the authorities while moving them to other parishes where they could re-offend doesn't suggest any concern for the victims to me.
    I think the point is that, viewed objectively, the measures concerned would both (a) have reduced particular opportunities for abuse, and (b) reduced gossip or speculation about abuse that those opportunities would have generated. How can we say that Pell was motivated by (b), but not by (a)? The Royal Commission's suggestion is that he was motivated by both considerations, and indeed they point to this to argue that he must have known at the time that child abuse was a real phenomemon, and not merely speculative gossip.

    The timeline here is relevant. 1n 1973, Pell was concerned about a particular priest (Gerald Ridsdale) taking boys away on camping trips. Pell was then an assistant priest in a parish in Ballarat; he was not making, or in a position to make, decisions about moving clergy around the diocese. (Ridsdale was another assistant priest in the same parish.) It's nearly 10 years later, in 1982, that Pell is said to have been involved in decisions to respond to admissions of child abuse by priests by moving the priest concerned but not reporting the matter to the police.

    The signficance of the 1973 incident is not that it shows that Pell was concerned to protect the church but not to protect victims; the measure he urged would have served both purposes, and there is nothing to suggest that he was concerned about one but indifferent to the other. The signficance is the light it casts on Pell's claim to have been unconscious of the phenomenon of clerical child abuse in 1873, and for many years afterwards.


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    #3423
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I think the point is that, viewed objectively, the measures concerned would both (a) have reduced particular opportunities for abuse, and (b) reduced gossip or speculation about abuse that those opportunities would have generated. How can we say that Pell was motivated by (b), but not by (a)? The Royal Commission's suggestion is that he was motivated by both considerations, and indeed they point to this to argue that he must have known at the time that child abuse was a real phenomemon, and not merely speculative gossip.

    I have no doubt Pell was motivated by both (a) and (b) above but would question whether reducing opportunity for abuse was done primarily to protect future potential victims or to protect the church from future potential scandal. While I'd guess there was an element of both the cynic in me suspects the latter was the prime driver.


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    #3424
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    I have no doubt Pell was motivated by both (a) and (b) above but would question whether reducing opportunity for abuse was done primarily to protect future potential victims or to protect the church from future potential scandal. While I'd guess there was an element of both the cynic in me suspects the latter was the prime driver.
    I cannot avoid the same unworthy suspicion. But honest compels me to admit that this may reveal as much or more about you and me as it does about Pell. What we suspect isn't a finding of the Royal Commission; it's a construction that you and I are disposed to put on the finding of the Commission.

    The truth is that Pell didn't need to ask himself, and probably didn't ask himself, which of the two motives predominated for him; there was no tension between them and he didn't have to prioritise one over the other.

    (I don't think the same is true regarding the choices he was making ten years later, though, about moving clergy around.)


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    #3425
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I cannot avoid the same unworthy suspicion. But honest compels me to admit that this may reveal as much or more about you and me as it does about Pell. What we suspect isn't a finding of the Royal Commission; it's a construction that you and I are disposed to put on the finding of the Commission.

    The truth is that Pell didn't need to ask himself, and probably didn't ask himself, which of the two motives predominated for him; there was no tension between them and he didn't have to prioritise one over the other.

    (I don't think the same is true regarding the choices he was making ten years later, though, about moving clergy around.)

    It is not an entirely unfounded suspicion though, there is some underlying rationale. If we agree certain of his actions were done solely to protect the church that implies he was motivated to protect the church. For the same to be true of protecting child sexual abuse victims we're need to find similar actions done solely to protect these victims without otherwise protecting the church. While we know he was motivated to protect the church, we don't have any reason to believe that protecting child sexual abuse victims was anything more than incidental to protecting the church.

    More simply perhaps, we know protecting child sexual abuse victims was at best a secondary concern because if it was a primary concern he would have declared it to the authorities rather than cover it up.


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    #3426
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The signficance of the 1973 incident is not that it shows that Pell was concerned to protect the church but not to protect victims; the measure he urged would have served both purposes

    Protecting victims? He didn't report what he knew to the police, if he had any concern about victims and potential victims, or any morals or human decency at all really, he would have.
    The signficance is the light it casts on Pell's claim to have been unconscious of the phenomenon of clerical child abuse in 1873, and for many years afterwards.

    We know he's a self-serving liar, only question is how far the lies go... I think he should have served longer in prison than he has, for the cover-up alone.

    The other day I chanced across a thread from about ten years ago with lots of posters demanding that justice be done in this country... depressing reading. Of course nothing happened and time and age ensures that nothing will happen, just like how they're stalling on Tuam until all concerned are dead.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3427
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The Irish College in Rome - once a hotbed of generally compliant priests - has announced that there will be no Irish amongst this year's intake. The available news articles don't make clear whether this is due to covid or yet further declines in the number of priests (or both).

    https://www.irishcatholic.com/no-irish-seminarians-to-be-in-formation-in-the-irish-college-in-rome-for-2020-2021/


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    #3428
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    The Irish College in Rome - once a hotbed of generally compliant priests - has announced that there will be no Irish amongst this year's intake. The available news articles don't make clear whether this is due to covid or yet further declines in the number of priests (or both).

    https://www.irishcatholic.com/no-irish-seminarians-to-be-in-formation-in-the-irish-college-in-rome-for-2020-2021/
    Could be both of those plus also (c), in recent years fewer and fewer Irish bishops have been sending their clerical students - the few they have - to the Irish College. Other seminaries are available.


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    #3429
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    It really is beginning to seems never ending.
    A new lawsuit accuses former cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick of managing a “sex cabal” among seminarians, altar boys and priests at a New Jersey beach house in the 1980s.


    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/22/theodore-mccarrick-disgraced-cleric-accused-runnin/


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    #3430
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I wasn't aware of this guy until very recently, but he was quite the piece of work:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Maskell

    And of course he was of Irish descent, his protectors in the hierarchy were also, and he was sent off to Ireland when things got too hot for him in the States.

    Unbelievably, (or, perhaps, very believably) he found employment in the South Eastern Health Board as a psychologist "counselling" underage sex abuse victims, and no Garda vetting appears to have been done.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hse-investigates-activities-of-us-priest-featured-in-netflix-series-1.3106138

    He was also accused of murder...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3431
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Speaking of scandals, can anyone do a quick unbiased summary of what is going on with AAI at the moment? As someone who refuses to read or use Twitter in any way, and where possible not read anything even ABOUT twitter in any way, I only heard in a very very round about way that there is even something going on.

    But one of their head guys is the recent victim of cancel culture for using the word "retard" I believe? More than this I have not yet heard.


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    #3432
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I was blissfully unaware of all this until on your prompting I did a brief search - unfortunately it seems that this will have real-world implications for atheists at risk of persecution:

    https://www.atheistalliance.org/announcements/michael-sherlock/


    521655.png

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3433
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Ah elevator gate. That had its ups and downs. But was wrong on so many levels.


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    #3434
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Post edited to reflect that it's potentially a lot more serious than elevatorgate

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3435
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    This is just odd


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53703294


    #freethebelly
    #flabflyfree


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    #3436
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    522585.jpg

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3437
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Falwell? Nah, Fall Badly

    Jerry Falwell Jr, son of religious mogul and founder of Liberty University, Jerry Falwell Sr - about whom Christopher Hitchens once said, "If you gave Falwell an enema, he could be buried in a matchbox" - ran into a spot of online bother earlier this month when he posted an instagram photo of himself with his arm in an unusual position around the waist of his wife's pregnant assistant, with - drumroll, please - the trousers of both the assistiant and Mr Falwell (the alive one) not as closed as one would have expected.

    The photo was rapidly deleted, but it lead to Eyebrows Being Raised, Questions Being Asked, then People Coming Forward, the most unexpected of which is one Giancarlo Granda, Falwell's "pool boy", who claims that Falwell's sexual interests were spread, like the welcoming limbs of his wife Becki, a little wider than decorum and Jesus would recommend.
    Giancarlo Granda wrote:
    Becki and I developed an intimate relationship and Jerry enjoyed watching from the corner of the room.

    Some weeks ago, Mr Falwell was placed on indefinite leave from LU, and today, he resigned:

    https://religionnews.com/2020/08/24/jerry-falwell-resigns-liberty-university-alleged-affair-trump-pool-attendant/

    By way of comparison with private behaviour, here's Mrs Falwell publicly discussing "Family Values" in a video produced by the Trump campaign in September of last year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlE4-dHvpSY


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    #3438
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Falwell, Jr. has now resigned as Prez of Liberty U. due to his ongoing sex scandal with the pool boy. He was already on 'furlough' due to photos of him cosplaying "Trailer Park Boys" on a yacht with various younger women, not his wife of course. Hilarious.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-falwell-relationship/


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    #3439
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The online daughter of Jerry and Becki Falwell has issued a statement on the latest jiggery-pokery:

    https://twitter.com/blaireerskine/status/1298026613871910912


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    #3440
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    robindch wrote: »
    The online daughter of Jerry and Becki Falwell has issued a statement on the latest jiggery-pokery:

    https://twitter.com/blaireerskine/status/1298026613871910912

    Uhh..

    Hill freaking larious!

    In other related news, Fallingwell endorsed the #IMPOTUS in 2016 in exchange for Michael Cohen "persuading" the pool boy to be quiet https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-jerry-falwell-jr-miami-beach-pool-boy-evangelical-explained-850380/amp/


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    #3441
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    robindch wrote: »
    The online daughter of Jerry and Becki Falwell has issued a statement on the latest jiggery-pokery:

    https://twitter.com/blaireerskine/status/1298026613871910912
    upside down scuba diver cheek sucker woman head
    her knowledge of sexual positions is better than mine. off to urban dictionary i go.

    Hilarious when she said that it never happened but if it did her father only watched to make sure she was doing it in a christian way. On the other hand i do feel sorry for her and she seems to be really struggling to understand what has happened.


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    #3442
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    (It's a spoof, ohnonotgmail.)


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    #3443
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    (It's a spoof, ohnonotgmail.)

    ah jaysis. what a sucker i am.


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    #3444
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    To be fair, it's a very good spoof.


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    #3445
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Was it deleted? I'm only seeing a big portrait picture.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3446
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,140 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Was it deleted? I'm only seeing a big portrait picture.
    Should be an embedded link to a tweet with a video. Works for me.


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    #3447
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Liberty University sent out a scheduled tweet asking students what class they were most excited about. the responses are hilarious.

    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/08/24/liberty-u-seriously-asked-students-what-class-theyre-most-excited-about/


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    #3448
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Resignations have many reasons, in this case, there are ten point five million reasons:

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/26/us/jerry-falwell-jr-resignation-payment/index.html


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    #3449
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Should be an embedded link to a tweet with a video. Works for me.

    Ah OK didn't work on my phone but does on laptop.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3450
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Fallwell - the pool boy speaks



    https://abcnews.go.com/US/pool-attendant-details-alleged-relationship-becki-jerry-falwell/story?id=72649159&cid=clicksource_4380645_1_heads_hero_live_headlines_hed


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    #3451
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,102 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.rte.ie/player/b/movie/land-without-god-e1/148527655978

    Three generations of a family utterly abused by the church, and the state authorities in the thrall of the church.

    Disgusting, horrifying, appalling.

    Still no justice for victims. Still no accountability. Still no nuns, priests, bishops or brothers in jail. The powers that be will delay and deny until everyone who could be held accountable for these horrors are dead.

    Tuam is just the tip of the iceberg.

    How and why are we allowing this to happen?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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