Galway Harbour Company has banned Motorhome Parking

AutostratusEB · 12-10-2014 9:35pm #1

Disappointed to see this sign (attached) in the Docks this morning in Galway. It would appear that Siobhanrua was right about motorhomes being banned from the popular parking spot by the docks in Galway.

moodrater · 12-10-2014 11:36pm

AutostratusEB wrote: »

Disappointed to see this sign (attached) in the Docks this morning in Galway. It would appear that Siobhanrua was right about motorhomes being banned from the popular parking spot by the docks in Galway.

Is that where the designated spaces were?

*Kol* · 13-10-2014 10:22am

What do they mean by privately operated parking? Is it pay and display?Strange that they would put a blanket ban on MH parking. If you pay and display for parking what harm are you doing?

*Kol* · 13-10-2014 10:38am

AutostratusEB wrote: »

Disappointed to see this sign (attached) in the Docks this morning in Galway. It would appear that Siobhanrua was right about motorhomes being banned from the popular parking spot by the docks in Galway.

Which street is that sign on? The camper space were/are on dock street.

AutostratusEB · 13-10-2014 11:00am

*Kol* wrote: »

Which street is that sign on? The camper space were/are on dock street.

Yes the sign is on the corner by the red brick building - corner of dock road and dock street.

All the land around the Harbour ( and the parking spaces) belong to Galway Harbour Company so they canset different rates. In effect all parking around the docks is privately operated.
Tis an awful pity they made this decision. And they will enforce it with clamps as they are pretty strict with non display of parking tickets also.

Irishgoatman · 13-10-2014 11:18am

Were the designated MH parking spaces on Harbour Company land? if so, why the sudden turn around?.

How did/does the on-street (council) parking charges compare with Harbour Co. charges? does anyone know off-hand.

*Kol* · 13-10-2014 11:33am

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Were the designated MH parking spaces on Harbour Company land? if so, why the sudden turn around?.

How did/does the on-street (council) parking charges compare with Harbour Co. charges? does anyone know off-hand.

It must be Galway port land. Perhaps there is an insurance/liability issue?

It was €4 from 20:00 to 08:00 and €2 per hour at other times. Generally on street there is no charge for parking after 18:00. The €2 per hour during the day would be comparable to most on street parking in cities.

revileandy · 13-10-2014 11:58am

Strange turn of events, especially considering the money they would have spent on installing the electricity / water points.

I stayed here during the summer, had a great 2 nights in Galway, nice quiet spot, a few minutes walk from Eyre Square - there were a lot of foreign campers making use of the spots due to our chronic lack of aires.

Irishgoatman · 13-10-2014 12:08pm

*Kol* wrote: »

It must be Galway port land. Perhaps there is an insurance/liability issue?

It was €4 from 20:00 to 08:00 and €2 per hour at other times. Generally on street there is no charge for parking after 18:00. The €2 per hour during the day would be comparable to most on street parking in cities.

Thanks, I visit my Daughter in Merlin Prk area most weeks but we take bus into town as it's easier.

Can't really see why it should be an insurance issue, but you could be right. Never having parked there, just walked along, I've never noticed if car parking spaces were marked out? if so perhaps MH's taking up too much room?. Even if not marked they would still be losing money as less MH's means more cars.

I'm going to give the company a ring later and see if I can find anything out. I'll report back.

AutostratusEB · 13-10-2014 12:28pm

revileandy wrote: »

Strange turn of events, especially considering the money they would have spent on installing the electricity / water points.

I stayed here during the summer, had a great 2 nights in Galway, nice quiet spot, a few minutes walk from Eyre Square - there were a lot of foreign campers making use of the spots due to our chronic lack of aires.

They installed the electricity/water points originally for the marina right beside the designated parking. I think this is where the problem lies - I think there is more money in selling marina space to yachts owners than motorhomes parking overnight. They may not want to share the space/facilities with motorhomes. This is only my guess by the way, there may be other reasons.

Its a pity they can't accommodate both though. I've sent loads of foreign motorhome owners I've met to Galway and told them to park there.

There is also the Black Box (on the Dyke Road) car park don't forget - €4 a day and free 18:00-08:00. Not as salubrious a surroundings as the docks but popular with foreign MH owners.

There is a lot of land over by the harbour enterprise park - though not as convenient to the city (a 10 minute longer walk) - it would be great if this could be used as an aire - perhaps with proper grey/black water disposal as well as AC/water

shaysue · 14-10-2014 2:00pm

Port authority say City Council Planning Authority enforcer closed them down due to no planning permission for campers parking. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye.....

Malta1 · 14-10-2014 3:51pm

shaysue wrote: »

Port authority say City Council Planning Authority enforcer closed them down due to no planning permission for campers parking. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye.....

Is this a case of "Dungarvanitis" spreading country wide??

niloc1951 · 14-10-2014 9:50pm

shaysue wrote: »

Port authority say City Council Planning Authority enforcer closed them down due to no planning permission for campers parking. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye.....

Motorhomes are in the same EU vehicle category as cars.
If there is planning permission to park motor vehicles then motorhomes can also park there.
The only way there could be no planning permission to park motorhomes there is if there was a special condition within the original planning permission to operate the parking area which stipulated that the parking of motorhomes was not allowed.

Now for some good news CLICK HERE

niloc1951 · 14-10-2014 11:50pm

shaysue wrote: »

Port authority say City Council Planning Authority enforcer closed them down due to no planning permission for campers parking. Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye.....

That doesn't seem to add up

Last year shortly after the parking area at Bandon SEE HERE came into operation the operator of the facility got a visit from a County Council official, it is believed following a complaint from a caravan and camping park operator.

To cut a long story short he left with his mission of closing the facility down unfulfilled

It was explained to him that there was no camping activity permitted and the motorhomes were simply being allowed to use existing parking which formed part of the premises planning permission.

The common use of the term camping or wild camping to describe what is in reality parking is muddying the water.
The discussion by councillors at the September meeting of the Dungarvan and Lismore Electoral Area Council is clear evidence that the difference between parking and camping when referring to motorhomes being stationary for a period of time is not at all understood by those in officialdomand their confusion is compounded by the constant use of wild camping by our own community when referring to parking up overnight.

If we look to the situation which prevails in Europe there is a clear understanding of the difference between parking and camping and while parking is widely provided in the form of Aires de Stationnement camping is usually prohibited.

Consider this:
Is the driver of a truck with a sleeper cab who pulls in for the night, prepares himself/herself a meal using on-board facilities, settles down to watch a bit of telly or read a book before climbing into the bunk for a nights sleep parked or camping

shaysue · 16-10-2014 1:42pm

If motorhomers feel strongly enough about this retrograde step in Galway, perhaps they could e mail Galway City council, Galway Bay FM, Bord Failte and perhaps some Galway city councillors to try to get this situation reversed or rectified. Look on the motorhomecraic.com site to get craicers reactions and also some e mail addresses to the aforementioned authorities!!! I, with some other motorhomers, have already made contact by phone and e mail. We need to keep up the pressure....for whatever good it may do.. Here's hoping.

shaysue · 16-10-2014 6:53pm

Reply received from Galway City Council planning official:

"Following a complaint from a member of the public in relation to motorhomes using car parking spaces at Dock St., Galway City Council were obliged to investigate the claims, as per Section 152 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended. Following a site inspection it was found that authorised car parking spaces were being utilised for the unauthorised parking of motorhomes, which were giving rise to traffic and pedestrian safety concerns.
It should be noted that planning permission does not exist for the parking of motorhomes at the site. The parking of motorhomes at this location represents a change in the authorised use of the land, from temporary car parking use permitted under PI. Ref. 12/67 (permitted until 26/06/2018), to a motorhome parking use. The unauthorised use of the land does not have the benefit of planning permission and therefore must cease. The parking of motor homes at this location also gives rise to issues of traffic and pedestrian safety, as the parking spaces are sized for cars only.
Should Galway Harbour Company wish to facilitate motorhome users at their site, then they are within their rights to consider their options with regard to seeking appropriate planning permission for the area in question.
Yours sincerely,
Peter Staunton
Assistant Planner / Enforcement Officer

killalanerr · 16-10-2014 8:24pm

Im confused and i don't claim to have the answer,but do motorhomes not come under the same group as cars when it comes to parking temporary or other wise when it comes to EU law ?

Just seen post 13,so would this mean that no further planning permission would be needed to continue with the current arrangements ?

CJhaughey · 16-10-2014 10:26pm

From my reading of it, its a load of codswallop.
The planners are attempting to stop this by using some kind of quasi legal gobbledegook.
* change in the authorised use of the land, from temporary car parking use permitted under PI. Ref. 12/67 (permitted until 26/06/2018), to a motorhome parking use.*
Then its a case of try and use the old H&S chestnut, pedestrian safety and traffic safety.
I'd say if a good barrister got onto this they would find it hard to defend in court.

niloc1951 · 17-10-2014 12:01am

shaysue wrote: »

Reply received from Galway City Council planning official:

"Following a complaint from a member of the public in relation to motorhomes using car parking spaces at Dock St., Galway City Council were obliged to investigate the claims, as per Section 152 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended. Following a site inspection it was found that authorised car parking spaces were being utilised for the unauthorised parking of motorhomes, which were giving rise to traffic and pedestrian safety concerns.
It should be noted that planning permission does not exist for the parking of motorhomes at the site. The parking of motorhomes at this location represents a change in the authorised use of the land, from temporary car parking use permitted under PI. Ref. 12/67 (permitted until 26/06/2018), to a motorhome parking use. The unauthorised use of the land does not have the benefit of planning permission and therefore must cease. The parking of motor homes at this location also gives rise to issues of traffic and pedestrian safety, as the parking spaces are sized for cars only.
Should Galway Harbour Company wish to facilitate motorhome users at their site, then they are within their rights to consider their options with regard to seeking appropriate planning permission for the area in question.
Yours sincerely,
Peter Staunton
Assistant Planner / Enforcement Officer

PURE RUBBISH

Motor caravans are in the same vehicle category as cars, hearses, ambulances, wheelchair accessible vehicles and disabled persons vehicles, see HERE

Unless motor caravans were specifically excluded as a condition of planning when permission was granted for parking vehicles then there is now no grounds to prohibit them. The fact that the planning application was for 'car parking' does not mean that vehicles other than cars may not use the facility as in such contexts the use of the word car has the meaning of vehicle.
Furthermore the word car, it is in fact an abbreviation of carriage and has different meanings in different contexts. It has no legal standing which is why when motoring related prosecutions are being perused the description vehicle or motor vehicle is always used.

Additionally, seeking to single out motor caravans from other M1 Special Purpose Vehicles for different treatment would need to be very carefully thought out and good reason put forward if a charge of unjustified discrimination is to be avoided.

If certain areas of a parking place are proven to be unsuitable for larger vehicles any controls necessary should be based on vehicle size not category. In such circumstances an appropriate area suitable for larger vehicles should be identified and reserved for such vehicles.

Galway City Council has an obligation to provide adequate parking facilities for vehicles of all sizes and weights which arrive within their jurisdiction which are legally entitled to use the road, failure to do so could compromise any prosecution for parking or standing such a vehicle within the area unless clear indication of such status quo is signposted on all approach roads to the city.

Malta1 · 17-10-2014 9:40am

niloc1951 wrote: »

PURE RUBBISH

Motor caravans are in the same vehicle category as cars, hearses, ambulances, wheelchair accessible vehicles and disabled persons vehicles, see HERE

Unless motor caravans were specifically excluded as a condition of planning when permission was granted for parking vehicles then there is now no grounds to prohibit them. The fact that the planning application was for 'car parking' does not mean that vehicles other than cars may not use the facility as in such contexts the use of the word car has the meaning of vehicle.
Furthermore the word car, it is in fact an abbreviation of carriage and has different meanings in different contexts. It has no legal standing which is why when motoring related prosecutions are being perused the description vehicle or motor vehicle is always used.

Additionally, seeking to single out motor caravans from other M1 Special Purpose Vehicles for different treatment would need to be very carefully thought out and good reason put forward if a charge of unjustified discrimination is to be avoided.

If certain areas of a parking place are proven to be unsuitable for larger vehicles any controls necessary should be based on vehicle size not category. In such circumstances an appropriate area suitable for larger vehicles should be identified and reserved for such vehicles.

Galway City Council has an obligation to provide adequate parking facilities for vehicles of all sizes and weights which arrive within their jurisdiction which are legally entitled to use the road, failure to do so could compromise any prosecution for parking or standing such a vehicle within the area unless clear indication of such status quo is signposted on all approach roads to the city.

Very well put - thank you

My question to the group is how do we make the authorities see the error of their ways - can anybody draft up a "standard" letter which is detailed and accurate in its legal argument which we all should send to the "powers that be"? From memory, this is how we handled the DOE issue

niloc1951 · 17-10-2014 11:41am

Have been studying the implications of the following statement by Peter Staunton Assistant Planner / Enforcement Officer:
The parking of motorhomes at this location represents a change in the authorised use of the land, from temporary car parking use permitted under PI. Ref. 12/67 (permitted until 26/06/2018), to a motorhome parking use

Planning application Ref. 12/67 was granted with six condition attached.
Condition number 5 states clearly This permission relates to the use of the land for parking purposes only
None of the six conditions refer to the category of vehicle which may or may not park there.
Once the offering from The Galway Harbour Company is confined to parking and no other services are offered at the area subject to permission Ref. 12/67 there would appear to be no valid grounds to prevent the parking of any category of vehicle on the site.

It would be interesting if Mr Staunton would elaborate on how he views the parking of a motorhome for a time bound period as not temporary. He should also understand that motor caravans share the same vehicle category as cars by EU Directive.

Mr Staunton goes on to say "The parking of motor homes at this location also gives rise to issues of traffic and pedestrian safety, as the parking spaces are sized for cars only."
If vehicle size is a problem then that needs to be addressed in that context and not in the context of vehicle category.
It should be known to Mr Staunton that there are many motor caravans of a size similar to other passenger vehicles and light goods vehicles and which will fit within a space lined for cars.
Having regard to the above it therefore appears that the current action is exclusively against motorhomes for undisclosed reasons with the planning and size issues being nothing but unsubstantiatable excuses.

Irishgoatman · 17-10-2014 12:23pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Have been studying the implications of the following statement by Peter Staunton Assistant Planner / Enforcement Officer:
The parking of motorhomes at this location represents a change in the authorised use of the land, from temporary car parking use permitted under PI. Ref. 12/67 (permitted until 26/06/2018), to a motorhome parking use

Planning application Ref. 12/67 was granted with six condition attached.
Condition number 5 states clearly This permission relates to the use of the land for parking purposes only
None of the six conditions refer to the category of vehicle which may or may not park there.
Once the offering from The Galway Harbour Company is confined to parking and no other services are offered at the area subject to permission Ref. 12/67 there would appear to be no valid grounds to prevent the parking of any category of vehicle on the site.

It would be interesting if Mr Staunton would elaborate on how he views the parking of a motorhome for a time bound period as not temporary. He should also understand that motor caravans share the same vehicle category as cars by EU Directive.

Mr Staunton goes on to say "The parking of motor homes at this location also gives rise to issues of traffic and pedestrian safety, as the parking spaces are sized for cars only."
If vehicle size is a problem then that needs to be addressed in that context and not in the context of vehicle category.
It should be known to Mr Staunton that there are many motor caravans of a size similar to other passenger vehicles and light goods vehicles and which will fit within a space lined for cars.
Having regard to the above it therefore appears that the current action is exclusively against motorhomes for undisclosed reasons with the planning and size issues being nothing but unsubstantiatable excuses.

It appears to me that Mr Staunton is getting confused. In his letter he refers to "...tempory car parking.." meaning, I assume, a limited amount of time that a vehicle can park there, yet in the file that you, niloc, have attached it is quite clear that the word "temporary" refers to the granting of change of use of the land not to the length of time a vehicle can park. There is a world of difference between "tempory car parking" and "a temporary car park".

Leaving that aside, where do I and others with small MH's stand?. If it's all about the size of the parking spaces, my vehicle is a fraction shorter and narrower than a large BMW!!!!!.

If it actually does come down to the parking of large vehicles being a danger, and as I said earlier, I've never taken any real notice of what the area looks like, then that's a different matter. Perhaps someone has a 'photo of the area?.

And by the way, I got the same response from the Harbour board as the earlier poster.

killalanerr · 17-10-2014 9:08pm

It would seem that ultimately this is a issue between the city council and the port authority . One would wonder if the port authorities would wish to question the councils decision considering the small gain that they get from motorhome parking .

the shelly · 17-10-2014 10:22pm

moodrater wrote: »

Is that where the designated spaces were?

So disappointed that this ban in place. I love Galway just don't like their attitude... They really don't like Motorhomes do they. I think at this stage they are all trying to run motorhome out of the country.. So its looks like foreign for me as it doesn't seem that hard find a place to stay over night in France for example.. Loads of aires.. I think its time that motorhome owners take a stand to this.. Even though things seem to come along nicely for us motorhomers.. Then boom this happens. What harm are we doing..
.

CJhaughey · 17-10-2014 10:50pm

the shelly wrote: »

So disappointed that this ban in place. I love Galway just don't like their attitude... They really don't like Motorhomes do they. I think at this stage they are all trying to run motorhome out of the country.. So its looks like foreign for me as it doesn't seem that hard find a place to stay over night in France for example.. Loads of aires.. I think its time that motorhome owners take a stand to this.. Even though things seem to come along nicely for us motorhomers.. Then boom this happens. What harm are we doing..
.

Its only small minded shíte, either they have had complaints from the hotel next door.
Just don't take it, write to the planning dept and ask about this.
The more people lie down the less they will be respected.

campingcarist · 18-10-2014 5:43pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

It appears to me that Mr Staunton is getting confused. In his letter he refers to "...tempory car parking.." meaning, I assume, a limited amount of time .....

.....
If it actually does come down to the parking of large vehicles being a danger, and as I said earlier, I've never taken any real notice of what the area looks like, then that's a different matter. Perhaps someone has a 'photo of the area?.

And by the way, I got the same response from the Harbour board as the earlier poster.

A parked vehicle the size of the majority of motorhomes are no more dangerous in a car park than any other parked vehicle.

*Kol* · 18-10-2014 5:59pm

campingcarist wrote: »

A parked vehicle the size of the majority of motorhomes are no more dangerous in a car park than any other parked vehicle.

It's not a car park. It's right on the side of the road. I can see where long vehicles could be an issue if they were protruding out onto the road.

Irishgoatman · 18-10-2014 8:31pm

campingcarist wrote: »

A parked vehicle the size of the majority of motorhomes are no more dangerous in a car park than any other parked vehicle.

But the point I was making was that I do not know what kind of parking is in place, parallel or nose in to kerb etc. I did know that it wasn't a car park.

*Kol* has now answered it for me. Ta.

gozunda · 18-10-2014 9:08pm

Malta1 wrote: »

Is this a case of "Dungarvanitis" spreading country wide??

Interesting Link here

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/demands-for-ban-oncamper-van-parking-288036.html

*Kol* · 18-10-2014 9:16pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

But the point I was making was that I do not know what kind of parking is in place, parallel or nose in to kerb etc. I did know that it wasn't a car park.

*Kol* has now answered it for me. Ta.

This is it (hope the link works from my phone)

niloc1951 · 18-10-2014 9:34pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

But the point I was making was that I do not know what kind of parking is in place, parallel or nose in to kerb etc. I did know that it wasn't a car park.

*Kol* has now answered it for me. Ta.

Its planning permission states it's an area of land on which parking is permitted.
If it is kerb side parking on a public road it would not need planning permission.

It is in fact a development on premises (operated by The Galway Harbour Company) to be used as off-street parking otherwise it would not have needed planning permission in the first place.

It should also be noted that the grant of permission does not contain any references to category, weight or size of vehicle which may use the facility.
The fact that it is referred to as a car-park carries no meaning that its use is restricted to cars, as is the case when the term car is applied to such things as car-ferries, car-ports, car-wash, etc., etc..

Galway Harbour Company has banned Motorhome Parking

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