€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 6:05pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Doesn't really matter what kind of company you'd favour, that's not how EU procurement processes or laws operate.

As for the rest of your post, it's full of figures you've presumably pulled from your arse, not to mention the lost time of starting from scratch on the location issue.

So you'd go ahead with a deeply flawed poorly costed project in the wrong location that will be there for 200 years than take a year or two to get new planning and start again somewhere else? I believe major new projects can be fast tracked through planning in this country.

Like I said they are still in the foundation stage. The current foundations could be used for something else, such as apartment buildings.

The lack of patience as shown by some is leading to very rash decisions and a build it at any cost attitude. The builders must be rubbing their hands with glee at the open cheque book.

facehugger99 · 05-02-2019 6:09pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So you'd go ahead with a deeply flawed poorly costed projected in the wrong location that will be there for 200 years than take a year or two to get planning and start again somewhere else?

Like I said they are still in the foundation stage. The current foundations could be used for something else, such as apartment buildings.

I've gathered from your posts that you're big on sweeping statements but have very little relevant experience in the industry to back any of them up.

Canceling the project at this stage would exacerbate an already deeply troubling situation and add years to the development of a much needed children's facility with no guarantee of a better outcome at the end - so yes, I'd 100% press ahead at this stage with the current location.

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 6:10pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

You are aware that it is not going to be literally the only hospital in Ireland caring for children?

It will be the primary hospital for children in Dublin and the the primary hospital for highly specialised care nationwide. The majority of the patients will be from Dublin.

Its going to be the primary hospital for the sickest children in Ireland.

Do you honestly think a Dublin child with the flu or a broken leg is going to take a bed away from a child with a very serious illness such as a heart condition or CF from elsewhere in the country?

Think about it.

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 6:12pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

I've gathered from your posts that you're big on sweeping statements but have very little relevant experience in the industry to back any of them up.

Canceling the project at this stage would exacerbate an already deeply troubling situation and add years to the development of a much needed children's facility with no guarantee of a better outcome at the end - so yes, I'd 100% press ahead at this stage with the current location.

And I've gathered from yours you'd rush a hospital that is over-priced and in the wrong location and based there for 200 years, rather than take a year or two to get it right.

If you are in the industry, I'd be worried about you building something for me. Wrong location and twice the real cost seems to be your idea of a build.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:16pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its going to be the primary hospital for the sickest children in Ireland.

Do you honestly think a Dublin child with the flu or a broken leg is going to take a bed away from a child with a very serious illness such as a heart condition or CF from elsewhere in the country?

Think about it.

You are not that likely to get admitted to a ward with a broken leg

It is the primary secondary hospital for Dublin. It is the primary tertiary hospital for Ireland. The majority of the patients will be from Dublin - that is just a fact. For the sickest children there are plans for on-site accommodation for parents.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:19pm

Do people think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and close interaction with multiple research facilities is not important? That is essentially the only question that needs answering. And if they think it is not important, then please say why.

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 6:23pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

You are not that likely to get admitted to a ward with a broken leg

It is the primary secondary hospital for Dublin. It is the primary tertiary hospital for Ireland. The majority of the patients will be from Dublin - that is just a fact. For the sickest children there are plans for on-site accommodation for parents.

But you get my point about it being used by the sickest and those who need it most? The theory is it will be mostly used by Dublin children. But my point is a very sick child from outside of Dublin vs a not so sick one from Dublin. Who gets the bed? And trust me beds will be in short supply as they are across the HSE.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:24pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

But you get my point about it being used by the sickest and those who need it most? The theory is it will be mostly used by Dublin children. But my point is a very sick child from outside of Dublin vs a not so sick one from Dublin. Who gets the bed? And trust me beds will be in short supply as they are across the HSE.

That is not how bed allocations work.

And no, I don't get your point. The majority of patients using the hospital will be from Dublin. They are attempting to facilitate those from further away who are the sickest as much as possible with on-site accommodation. What exactly is your point?

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 6:24pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do people think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and close interaction with multiple research facilities is not important? That is essentially the only question that needs answering. And if they think it is not important, then please say why.

Of course its important. But so is access.

Frankly its surprising this hospital got planning in the first place for that location given potential traffic and access issues.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:26pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Of course its important. But so is access.

Yeah...but pick one. Cause that is basically the issue here - you can have one but not the other. Is access by car more important than co-location with an adult teaching hospital and research facilities?

salmocab · 05-02-2019 6:32pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Do people think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and close interaction with multiple research facilities is not important? That is essentially the only question that needs answering. And if they think it is not important, then please say why.

It’s certainly important and the reason the site was picked, it does seem that this was the main reason for the choice, it doesn’t make it the right choice. My remembrance of it was that the long term plan was to tri locate in Coombe too.
I’ve said here before that I think a greenfield site say at newlands would have been a great option with room for the Coombe and James’s too in the long term. Money could be found over a long period as some parts of James’s will need upgrades and rebuilds over the next couple of decades. Hospitals have a shelf life and parts of James’s are well down theirs. Coombe site and James’s site could be sold off long term to recoup some costs. Also there are savings to be made in having a purpose built campus with well planned infrastructure.
I’m not claiming this could be done for the 2/3 billion range but over maybe 20/25 years it could be funded and would be good for the guts of a century.

ChikiChiki · 05-02-2019 6:38pm

alloywheel wrote: »

The government and HSE here could not organize a piss up in a brewery,despite they fact they are so overpaid. What a waste of taxpayers money. An awful pity we are not part of the NHS.

We really are a naively stupid country. When you see what the likes of the yellow vest movement in France are protesting over and the average Irish person cannot articulate in their heads what a waste of money this is and how it affects them. This is staggering waste for such a small population.

We will just plod on as normal to the next scandal or until the hospital inevitably hits a price tag of over 3bn.

JPCN1 · 05-02-2019 6:38pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Of course its important. But so is access.

Frankly its surprising this hospital got planning in the first place for that location given potential traffic and access issues.

Indeed you would be hard pushed to find a worse site in Dublin imo.

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 6:42pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Of course its important. But so is access.

Frankly its surprising this hospital got planning in the first place for that location given potential traffic and access issues.

Is it that important ? In all my years in a major paeds hospital I never saw a child transferred or needing an adult hospital
I saw kids transfered on a regular basis from small paeds wards in adult hospitals and from maternity hospitals too to the paediatric hospital
The only transfers were to centre of excellence in the UK or Europe for specific specialist treatments
Is there something I am missing about the co location being that important ?

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:44pm

salmocab wrote: »

It’s certainly important and the reason the site was picked, it does seem that this was the main reason for the choice, it doesn’t make it the right choice. My remembrance of it was that the long term plan was to tri locate in Coombe too.

That is still the long-term plan I believe. It doesn't make it the right choice, no - but it does re-frame the argument. The discussion needs to focus on whether that was the correct criteria, because if it was then none of the other options being espoused are viable.

Ultimately, the Dolphin report looked at the potential for a greenfield site for a new Beaumont Hospital at Belcamp but didn't give it much time due to the huge number of "what-ifs" which I can understand. Perhaps a commitment to a huge new campus development could have worked, but given our history with capital projects I think they had a point on erring on the side of caution.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:47pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Is it that important ? In all my years in a major paeds hospital I never saw a child transferred or needing an adult hospital
I saw kids transfered on a regular basis from small paeds wards in adult hospitals and from maternity hospitals too to the paediatric hospital
The only transfers were to centre of excellence in the UK or Europe for specific specialist treatments
Is there something I am missing about the co location being that important ?

The goal is not to transfer the child, it is to have communal skills and expertise.

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 6:49pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The goal is not to transfer the child, it is to have communal skills and expertise.

Yes absolutely of course . But co locating it with an adult hospital wont affect that in my opinion . Then the paediatric skills needed will be on hand if we can get the staff

salmocab · 05-02-2019 6:51pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

That is still the long-term plan I believe..

The Coombe’s current site is already far too small and parking is s major issue with people stopping in the middle of Cork st waiting for entry. So unless James’s has a very big site to offer up I suspect that it won’t be happening. Especially after this mess, it will be untouchable I think.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 6:57pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes absolutely of course . But co locating it with an adult hospital wont affect that in my opinion . Then the paediatric skills needed will be on hand if we can get the staff

Fair enough, this is beyond my area of expertise. But every single study we've commissioned on it has thought that it mattered. Being able to quickly talk to an expert cardiologist can hardly hurt for a paed cardiologist for example? If a child got a stroke they would be pretty lucky if the children's hospital was in Beaumont for example. Interaction with medical research facilities is also cited by Dolphin as being important as it leads to a positive feedback loop of better skills and practices.

salmocab · 05-02-2019 7:00pm

Is great ormond street co- located? Is this the norm elsewhere? Is it being pushed elsewhere as the way forward or a necessity? Was the big one I keep hearing about in Glasgow that was built for a reasonable price co-located?
These are genuine questions btw.

tototoe · 05-02-2019 7:01pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Is it that important ? In all my years in a major paeds hospital I never saw a child transferred or needing an adult hospital
I saw kids transfered on a regular basis from small paeds wards in adult hospitals and from maternity hospitals too to the paediatric hospital
The only transfers were to centre of excellence in the UK or Europe for specific specialist treatments
Is there something I am missing about the co location being that important ?

Asking the same question? Why is it so important to have an adult hospital beside a children's hospital.

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 7:03pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough, this is beyond my area of expertise. But every single study we've commissioned on it has thought that it mattered. Being able to quickly talk to an expert cardiologist can hardly hurt for a paed cardiologist for example? If a child got a stroke they would be pretty lucky if the children's hospital was in Beaumont for example. Interaction with medical research facilities is also cited by Dolphin as being important as it leads to a positive feedback loop of better skills and practices.

Being honest I am sure if a paeds cardiologist needed to speak to an adult cardiologist being on the same site is no quicker on the phone . And peads cardiologist are far more likely to need to speak to paeds cardiologists in Canada or Sweden then in an adult hospital

And a child who has a stroke is far better cared for in a paeds centre of excellence and they are well capable of giving expert care

I just don't see the importance of co location but admit I could be missing something .

DJIMI TRARORE · 05-02-2019 7:03pm

Not going to read thru thread,but have any of the other prices quoted ever been released,surely they couldn't all be so far out with their cost predictions

facehugger99 · 05-02-2019 7:05pm

tototoe wrote: »

Asking the same question? Why is it so important to have an adult hospital beside a children's hospital.

Some children need to be treated by consultants who work in both adult and paediatric services - specialities, such as cardiac surgery, neurosurgery, dermatology, burns,etc.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:06pm

salmocab wrote: »

Is great ormond street co- located? Is this the norm elsewhere? Is it being pushed elsewhere as the way forward or a necessity? Was the big one I keep hearing about in Glasgow that was built for a reasonable price co-located?
These are genuine questions btw.

It is essentially co-located with the National Neurology and Neurosurgery hospital, though that is not quite the same thing. It is very near University College Hospital.

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 7:09pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Some children need to be treated by consultants who work in both adult and paediatric services - specialities, such as cardiac surgery, neurosurgery, dermatology, burns,etc.

Do they ? A paeds consultant is highly skilled , paeds cardiologist , paeds dermatologist , paeds burns and plastic surgery . Have you any examples of the need to have a paeds hospital on the same site will actually change anything ?

James Brown · 05-02-2019 7:09pm

Just thinking, if Fianna Fail are in any way an actual political party interested in politics and being in government because they feel their way would be better for the country, now's the time to strike, as it where. But they have it handy playing both sides I suppose, and of course they aren't.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:10pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And a child who has a stroke is far better cared for in a paeds centre of excellence and they are well capable of giving expert care

Unless they need a thrombectomy. Specialised care is specialised for a reason after all.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:11pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Just thinking, if Fianna Fail are in any way an actual political party interested in politics and being in government because they feel their way would be better for the country, now's the time to strike, as it where. But they have it handy playing both sides I suppose, and of course they aren't.

The site location was made based on expert reports. You may disagree with them, but what everyone needs to realise is that they are basically asking for more political interference, not less.

facehugger99 · 05-02-2019 7:12pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Do they ? A paeds consultant is highly skilled , paeds cardiologist , paeds dermatologist , paeds burns and plastic surgery . Have you any examples of the need to have a paeds hospital on the same site will actually change anything ?

There's a wealth of information available on the internet from medical professionals espousing the advantages of co-location. The debate was done to death years ago.

We need to just build the damn thing at this stage. The current facilities for sick children are a joke.

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 7:14pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Unless they need a thrombectomy. Specialised care is specialised for a reason after all.

Of course there are exceptions and of course it will arise but not convinced that co location will actually make a huge difference to the exceptions

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 7:16pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

There's a wealth of information available on the internet from medical professionals espousing the advantages of co-location. The debate was done to death years ago.

We need to just build the damn thing at this stage. The current facilities for sick children are a joke.

Absolutely agree that we need to build the bloody thing and staff it and equip it

Auguste Comte · 05-02-2019 7:19pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Do they ? A paeds consultant is highly skilled , paeds cardiologist , paeds dermatologist , paeds burns and plastic surgery . Have you any examples of the need to have a paeds hospital on the same site will actually change anything ?

There's a wealth of information available on the internet from medical professionals espousing the advantages of co-location. The debate was done to death years ago.

We need to just build the damn thing at this stage. The current facilities for sick children are a joke.

And in 30 years time when the national children's hospital needs to be expanded people will be saying "The current facilities for sick children are a joke."

We have the opportunity to get it right now but we seem to be going the ah sure it'll do route.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:24pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

And in 30 years time when the national children's hospital needs to be expanded people will be saying "The current facilities for sick children are a joke."

We have the opportunity to get it right now but we seem to be going the ah sure it'll do route.

Ok - define "get it right" for us please?

jmayo · 05-02-2019 7:30pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

I didn't know that but makes sense considering how large those sikorsky's are. The Air Corps can be called to operate these missions and I hope they will have the resources in place to do that.
Absolute emergencies will continue to be treated at any A&E.

So a specific helicopter will now have to be tasked to an emergency depending if a child is involved ?

JPCN1 wrote: »

Indeed you would be hard pushed to find a worse site in Dublin imo.

In June 2016 Newstalk undertook a poll and this was discussed on Pat kenny show...

Eilish Hardiman, CEO of the Children's Hospital Group, told Newstalk’s Pat Kenny Show that its decision to build the facility on the St James’s campus in Dublin came after much deliberation.

She was speaking after a new poll indicated that 73% of the Irish population believe that site is the wrong location for the hospital.

The Newstalk/Red C study found that only 20% of people surveyed agree with the selection of the site.

...

Dr Eamon Farrell, a childhood cancer survivor currently working at St James’s Hospital, told the Pat Kenny Show that he was greatly concerned about the location of the new facility.

Dr Farrell, who underwent seven months of intensive chemotherapy as a teenager, criticised proponents of the site for dismissing concerns about access and parking issues.

“The idea of a child undergoing chemotherapy who is sick and nauseous and weak hopping on a Luas line is at best inconvenient and an absolute ordeal, and at worst it’s very dangerous,” he said.

"These kids can pick up infections, which to a normal person might not be that serious, but to them might mean a week in hospital.”

Obviously a doctor working at St James who underwent childhood cancer treatment is not as knowledgable as our poster Podge&Rodge or he would have of course gone with the 17 minute Luas trips.

And of course being a doctor actually working in James in way confirms on him any expertise unlike those lauded continously by AndyRenko. :rolleyes:

And the current rat, cockroach infested St James site is such a good adult hospital that it lends itself so well to colocation with a children's hospital.
Sure the children can get some lessons in some of our fauna while they recouperate.

A PEST CONTROL company attended St James’s Hospital in Dublin 108 separate times to deal with recurrent infestations of rodents, insects and other pests in the past two years.

Pest activity was reported in areas including a dialysis room, an endoscopy theatre, and on bedside tables in hospital wards, documents released under the Freedom of Information Act reveal.

Among the creepy-crawlies reported at the hospital during 2015 and 2016 were mice, ants, cockroaches and woodlice.

Black clock beetles – large, carnivorous insects with sharp jaws – were also discovered by pest-control technicians in a specialised unit for patients undergoing bone-marrow transplants last August.

Also we continously hear about the much lauded underground car park, the one that cost 20 million to have a major sewer line diverted, that adds near 1000 spaces of which nearly 700 will be families visiting hospital.
Except we don't hear that the hospital is being built on an existing car park and are those lost spaces being replaced ?
Where will the people that would have used those spaces going to park ?

What will happen when they add even more staff and more patients when a new maternity hospital is site there ?
Where do they get to park ?

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:32pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Of course there are exceptions and of course it will arise but not convinced that co location will actually make a huge difference to the exceptions

I don't know either. But this viewpoint was the one the Dolphin report took, in part I believe based on the Bristol Report, as well as the previous studies done by McKinsey and KPMG which all decided it was important.

It is not just that children have access to adult specialities, but that when they need adult specialities they can return to the care of paeds.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 7:41pm

jmayo wrote: »

So a specific helicopter will now have to be tasked to an emergency depending if a child is involved ?

S&R helicopters do S&R, not patient transport. The NCH will not be the only building in the entire land capable of looking after children - a fact that seems obvious but bears repeating apparently.

jmayo wrote: »

Obviously a doctor working at St James who underwent childhood cancer treatment is not as knowledgable as our poster Podge&Rodge or he would have of course gone with the 17 minute Luas trips.

So that patient, who will be a minority of the people going to the NCH, should be driven there. I find it ridiculous that the suggestion that most people can get a luas to James is met with "but a child getting chemo can't get the luas" as if they make up most of the people going in and out of the building. I have absolutely no problem with the suggestion that someone from outside Dublin visiting the NCH should park & ride from the Red Cow - why do you?

Auguste Comte · 05-02-2019 7:58pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with the suggestion that someone from outside Dublin visiting the NCH should park & ride from the Red Cow - why do you?

See post 606

cnocbui · 05-02-2019 8:08pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

S&R helicopters do S&R, not patient transport. The NCH will not be the only building in the entire land capable of looking after children - a fact that seems obvious but bears repeating apparently.

So that patient, who will be a minority of the people going to the NCH, should be driven there. I find it ridiculous that the suggestion that most people can get a luas to James is met with "but a child getting chemo can't get the luas" as if they make up most of the people going in and out of the building. I have absolutely no problem with the suggestion that someone from outside Dublin visiting the NCH should park & ride from the Red Cow - why do you?

Do you have children?

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 8:15pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

See post 606

The relevance?

The majority of movements in and out of the NCH will not be extremely sick children or their parents. Those people should absolutely have access to the hospital and facilities - such as the parking and on-site accommodation that are being provided. It is not ideal that they may have to travel during peak hours to the hospital, but it is preferable that they get the best care available. This is an issue that people seem to like to avoid - if you could access the hospital more easily but with slightly worse outcomes would that be a tradeoff that you would take?

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 8:17pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Do you have children?

Why?

Johnnyhpipe · 05-02-2019 8:20pm

I havent gone through all 62 pages (sofar) of this thread.. But do we have any doctors/nurses here who would like to share their opinion on this subject?

jmayo · 05-02-2019 8:25pm

There are a couple of posters here continously lecturing us how expert reports have stated the James site is the best location.

One poster even reminded us that another Expert report had stated the Mater sitre was the first chosen and it was only because of the planners that it was dismissed.

So a bunch of experts had once said the Mater was the best site.

How come then so many doctors working in the area of paediatrics had gone against these experts ?
Were they wrong ?

And of course this leads me to wonder if a bunch of experts got it wrong with the Mater site, could a bunch of experts possibly be wrong with the James site ?

facehugger99 wrote: »

There's a wealth of information available on the internet from medical professionals espousing the advantages of co-location. The debate was done to death years ago.

We need to just build the damn thing at this stage. The current facilities for sick children are a joke.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Absolutely agree that we need to build the bloody thing and staff it and equip it

The problem with this is that something and thus by extension someone has to suffer to make up for the astronomical amount of money this will take.
You will probably find the emergency units setup for Tallaght and Connolly don't materialise, needed new and replacement equipment for other hospitals will not now be purchased, needed new wards and beds will be put on hold, theaters will be closed, etc, etc.

Leo is lying through his teeth claiming that an extra 5 or 6 hundred million, possibly a billion can suddenly be found and nowhere else has to make up for it.
And he is taking us for mugs.

ToBeFrank123 · 05-02-2019 8:26pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

And in 30 years time when the national children's hospital needs to be expanded people will be saying "The current facilities for sick children are a joke."

We have the opportunity to get it right now but we seem to be going the ah sure it'll do route.

Spot on. Our population is rising and also Dublins population is rising in particular.

AbdulAbhaile · 05-02-2019 8:30pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

S&R helicopters do S&R, not patient transport. The NCH will not be the only building in the entire land capable of looking after children - a fact that seems obvious but bears repeating apparently.

And what do they do with badly injured or ill children when they rescue them?

Not bring them to the most appropriate place to save their lives, minimise the effects of their injuries would appear to be the plan.

05-02-2019 8:32pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

S&R helicopters do S&R, not patient transport. The NCH will not be the only building in the entire land capable of looking after children - a fact that seems obvious but bears repeating apparently.

So that patient, who will be a minority of the people going to the NCH, should be driven there. I find it ridiculous that the suggestion that most people can get a luas to James is met with "but a child getting chemo can't get the luas" as if they make up most of the people going in and out of the building. I have absolutely no problem with the suggestion that someone from outside Dublin visiting the NCH should park & ride from the Red Cow - why do you?

Crumlin Hospital is the biggest paediatric hospital in Ireland and the National Oncology center for children.
So it’s not just a few kids a year needing its services . Unfortunately it’s probably a few hundred if you count children going back for consultations, tests, radiotherapy etc. Chemotherapy usually means being an in-patient.

It’s not feasible , practical or safe to have kids undergoing cancer treatment ......(and that period can go from a few months to a few years).....on public transport.

Cancer was the experience we had with our child, but many parents have kids with CF, Spina bifida , cardiac and neurological problems , auto immune, sepsis, meningitis . They all need specialist treatment too .

Asking people to drive from the West, South or North of the country which takes 4 hours, then park and carry their child onto a Luas perhaps in the cold or rain beggars belief . Believe me if you had 10 months of nursing a child with cancer, getting sicker by the day, dragging them all over the place to see different doctors for treatment and care you would think differently. Not all kids with cancer are in-patients all the time. They come and go from hospital . But they need constant monitoring and visits. So they need access.

Too easy to say people from outside Dublin should use park and ride .......would you be happy to do that yourself with a critically ill child ?

iamwhoiam · 05-02-2019 8:33pm

jmayo wrote: »

There are a couple of posters here continously lecturing us how expert reports have stated the James site is the best location.

One poster even reminded us that another Expert report had stated the Mater sitre was the first chosen and it was only because of the planners that it was dismissed.

So a bunch of experts had once said the Mater was the best site.

How come then so many doctors working in the area of paediatrics had gone against these experts ?
Were they wrong ?

And of course this leads me to wonder if a bunch of experts got it wrong with the Mater site, could a bunch of experts possibly be wrong with the James site ?

The problem with this is that something and thus by extension someone has to suffer to make up for the astronomical amount of money this will take.
You will probably find the emergency units setup for Tallaght and Connolly don't materialise, needed new and replacement equipment for other hospitals will not now be purchased, needed new wards and beds will be put on hold, theaters will be closed, etc, etc.

Leo is lying through his teeth claiming that an extra 5 or 6 hundred million, possibly a billion can suddenly be found and nowhere else has to make up for it.
And he is taking us for mugs.

Oh I agree but that doesn't take away from the absolute vital need for a NCH .
Its just shameful that its gone down this route and someone somewhere got rich off the backs of sick children . Yet no one at all will be accountable for a major f** up as per usual

jmayo · 05-02-2019 8:38pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

S&R helicopters do S&R, not patient transport. The NCH will not be the only building in the entire land capable of looking after children - a fact that seems obvious but bears repeating apparently.

Someone I know fell whilst horse riding in Wicklow. They were picked up by Rescue 117 and transferred not to nearest A&E, but Beuamont because they feared head trauma.
What if that was a child, should they not be airlifted direct to the best hospital for children or should they just be dumped in Tallaght for a look see first and then driven?

Podge_irl wrote: »

So that patient, who will be a minority of the people going to the NCH, should be driven there.

I find it ridiculous that the suggestion that most people can get a luas to James is met with "but a child getting chemo can't get the luas" as if they make up most of the people going in and out of the building. I have absolutely no problem with the suggestion that someone from outside Dublin visiting the NCH should park & ride from the Red Cow - why do you?

Isn't this all about the patients or is that only applicable when we talk about colocation and when it suits your agenda ?

Or is the mask slipping and you are HSE and it's all about the staff and screw the patients. :rolleyes:

PS I know of children that have had to make the trips to Temple St, Crumlin.
And they are either very sick getting much needed chemo or they are wheel chair bound.

But I suppose according to you they should just park up at the Red Cow after driving from Mayo and then get on the fooking Luas to your precious fooking ill placed hospital.

And people are not coming up for day visiting like going to the fooking Zoo, they are coming up with very sick ill children.

It is bad enough they have had to do that going to the likes of Crumlin or Temple Street, but now we have a chance to make it better, more accessible.
But as long as there are people (although I would dearly like to describe you and your ilk as something else) like you it will be just as bad and inconvenient as ever.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 8:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s not feasible , practical or safe to have kids undergoing cancer treatment ......(and that period can go from a few months to a few years).....on public transport.

Cancer was the experience we had with our child, but many parents have kids with CF, Spina bifida , cardiac and neurological problems , auto immune, sepsis, meningitis . They all need specialist treatment too .

Asking people to drive from the West, South or North of the country which takes 4 hours, then park and carry their child onto a Luas perhaps in the cold or rain is a bit inhuman . Of course they could drive the whole way ..but in a clogged up city center depending on rush hour traffic it could be a bit risky .

I have never suggested otherwise. In fact I have very explicitly stated that it is only right and proper that people in that scenario drive to the hospital - which will have a large number of parking spaces for this reason. It is also only an onerous trip traffic wise during rush hour in the morning - we should not pretend that this is a completely inaccessible site. The only way to ensure that there are enough parking spaces for parents in this position is that the huge number of people visiting the hospital for other reasons go via public transport. This will be true no matter where the hospital is located - if it is in a greenfield site then everyone will be driving there. At least at the purported site a large proportion of people can take public transport.

This is not an unusual proposition - if the majority of people going to GOSH can take public transport, then a lot of people can take public transport to the best connected hospital in Ireland. There is also the factor that it will be the main Secondary paed hospital for the Dublin area and about a third of households in Dublin do not own a car so public transport is their only option.

Podge_irl · 05-02-2019 8:46pm

jmayo wrote: »

Someone I know fell whilst horse riding in Wicklow. They were picked up by Rescue 117 and transferred not to nearest A&E, but Beuamont because they feared head trauma.
What if that was a child, should they not be airlifted direct to the best hospital for children or should they just be dumped in Tallaght for a look see first and then driven?

They would still be brought to Beaumont in that scenario.

jmayo wrote: »

Isn't this all about the patients or is that only applicable when we talk about colocation and when it suits your agenda ?

Or is the mask slipping and you are HSE and it's all about the staff and screw the patients.

It is all about patient outcomes. Co-location leads to better clinical outcomes and that is why the location was chosen. If you think that co-location with an adult teaching hospital and research facilities doesn't impact patient care feel free to explain why.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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