Heavyweight Boxing

Morrison J · 30-11-2020 6:20pm

The Nal wrote: »

Or MMA.

Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.

Wlad is a top 10 heavyweight of all time for me.

If Fury beats Joshua it's hard to argue against him being top 10. If he beats Joshua and Usyk (presuming Usyk gets some high level wins at the weight) I think you literally can't argue against him being top 10 all time.

yourdeadwright · 30-11-2020 6:22pm

The Nal wrote: »

Or MMA.

Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.

No even great American heavy weights in MMA currently

Its NBA & Baseball & Football and understandably so

Iv always maintained that we as boxing fans have not scratched the surface of what guys are a capable off,

Its very very rare for boxing to get guys who are the best athletes in there early teens , they all go into other easier and more money spinning sports , Boxer's tend to be kids with troubled pasts and from tough area's its just the way the sport is ,

If any of my boys are good athletes (little young yet) i'll push them into things other than boxing & iv been around the sport for nearly 35 years

Look at the current top 3 heavy weight for instance

Fury a traveller its part of there heritage ,
AJ an ex drug dealer who got involved to keep out of trouble
Wilder only took up the sport late to make money because his daughter was sick ,

Boxing does not have an allure to top early teen athletes only in some very rare cases ,

The Nal · 30-11-2020 6:52pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Wlad is a top 10 heavyweight of all time for me.

If Fury beats Joshua it's hard to argue against him being top 10.

Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).

Beaten Wilder and a shot Klitschko in a snoozefest. Maybe with a win over Joshua and Usyk as you say yeah. I hope it happens. But the standard is so poor its difficult to compare era to era. Andy Ruiz was HW champ last year FFS. Embarrassing for the division. Not quite Leon Spinks, but close.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

No even great American heavy weights in MMA currently

Its NBA & Baseball & Football and understandably so

Iv always maintained that we as boxing fans have not scratched the surface of what guys are a capable off,

Its very very rare for boxing to get guys who are the best athletes in there early teens , they all go into other easier and more money spinning sports , Boxer's tend to be kids with troubled pasts and from tough area's its just the way the sport is ,

If any of my boys are good athletes (little young yet) i'll push them into things other than boxing & iv been around the sport for nearly 35 years

Look at the current top 3 heavy weight for instance

Fury a traveller its part of there heritage ,
AJ an ex drug dealer who got involved to keep out of trouble
Wilder only took up the sport late to make money because his daughter was sick ,

Boxing does not have an allure to top early teen athletes only in some very rare cases ,

Well Miocic, Jones (at HW weight now) and Cormier all great. But I take your point. A lot of the kids are steered towards other sports yeah. MMA is massive now though with kids.

OmegaGene · 30-11-2020 7:16pm

Cyrus wrote: »

it was worth watching to see franks face when he realised Dubois wasnt the second coming to be fair, but it is a worrying time for the heavy weight scene, the americans just arent getting into boxing at hw, if they are big its football or basketball.

More money in football or basketball sadly

Morrison J · 30-11-2020 7:17pm

The Nal wrote: »

Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).
.

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Foreman
4 Lewis
5 Holyfield
6 Frazier
7 Holmes
8 Tyson
9 Wlad
10 Liston

It's all very subjective obviously but thats probably my top 10 in that order. Good few interchangeable ones but Ali and Louis the clear top 2.

Tier 1:
Ali, Louis.

Tier 2:
Foreman, Lewis

Tier 3:
Holyfield, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson.

Tier 4:
Wlad, Liston

If Fury cleaned out the division by beating Joshua and Usyk I think there's a very strong argument to stick him in that tier 3. Probably even the higher end of it.

gypsy79 · 30-11-2020 8:07pm

Morrison J wrote: »

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Foreman
4 Lewis
5 Holyfield
6 Frazier
7 Holmes
8 Tyson
9 Wlad
10 Liston

It's all very subjective obviously but thats probably my top 10 in that order. Good few interchangeable ones but Ali and Louis the clear top 2.

Tier 1:
Ali, Louis.

Tier 2:
Foreman, Lewis

Tier 3:
Holyfield, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson.

Tier 4:
Wlad, Liston

If Fury cleaned out the division by beating Joshua and Usyk I think there's a very strong argument to stick him in that tier 3. Probably even the higher end of it.

This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

They were great days but the world has moved on

The Nal · 30-11-2020 8:22pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

They were great days but the world has moved on

Prime Lewis vs Fury would've been a slobberknocker

gypsy79 · 30-11-2020 8:27pm

The Nal wrote: »

Prime Lewis vs Fury would've been a slobberknocker

I think he might be only one who would give good test

yourdeadwright · 30-11-2020 8:28pm

The Nal wrote: »

Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).

Beaten Wilder and a shot Klitschko in a snoozefest. Maybe with a win over Joshua and Usyk as you say yeah. I hope it happens. But the standard is so poor its difficult to compare era to era. Andy Ruiz was HW champ last year FFS. Embarrassing for the division. Not quite Leon Spinks, but close.

Well Miocic, Jones (at HW weight now) and Cormier all great. But I take your point. A lot of the kids are steered towards other sports yeah. MMA is massive now though with kids.

DC is retired, Miocic is 38 and Jones hasn't fought at that weight

Jomes is a funny one hes an absolute beast but the smallest and least athletic of his brothers

Morrison J · 30-11-2020 8:37pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

They were great days but the world has moved on

He's a tough matchup for all but definitely wouldn't play with all of them. Prime Mike Tyson for example would be a bit of a nightmare for Fury. Always been open to the overhand right from smaller fighters.

Even take Sonny Liston. He'd be able to jab with Fury, attack his body and put combinations together on him. He's also tough as ****. Got tools that Fury has never really faced. You'd have to make Fury the favourite but Liston could definitely give him problems imo.

squinn2912 · 30-11-2020 9:49pm

Fury is my favourite at the moment but I don’t think comparing other eras is that useful or measurable. I can understand why he beats guys who he has 40lbs and 6 inches on but they’re from 50 years ago so the size of people has evolved a lot and the nature of professional sports is radically different.

However, I just can’t resist this temptation so I’m going to say what I think would happen. For a start Lewis cuts him in two. Strong enough to bully him and won’t mind bending rules to get the shot off. Wallin gave him a nightmare ffs what would Lewis do to him? Tyson I say ko to Mike by round 4 and Fury wouldn’t have a rib kind left. Nightmare for him, no matter about all time I think a prime Povetkin could well do the same. Liston’s jab would cause problems but I think he’s too hittable. I think Bowe would beat him and Holyfield is 50-50 for me.

I’m not going up the list any more because I’ll put myself in bad form. Wait. I think both Wlad and Vitali in their prime beat him. Hard, hard men.

Fury is my favourite at the moment. He’s looked the real deal once against a very questionably able Wilder - that’s not the benchmark, guys. In the other Wilder fight he should have been counted out. Other than that there’s a finished champion and then the opponents are poor. He still has time to cement his legacy and good luck to him doing so.

nacho libre · 30-11-2020 9:57pm

I hope Dubois can come again, but i don't see him ever being at the top table. The fight at the weekend confirmed what I had long suspected.

walshb · 30-11-2020 10:01pm

nacho libre wrote: »

I hope Dubois can come again, but i don't see him ever being at the top table. The fight at the weekend confirmed what I had long suspected.

Yes..

Funny, I think a fight like the other night might even make him less a fighter in the future...

Even forgetting the other night. He is slow, and has a very poor defense...nowhere near the top!

squinn2912 · 01-12-2020 12:05am

walshb wrote: »

Yes..

Funny, I think a fight like the other night might even make him less a fighter in the future...

Even forgetting the other night. He is slow, and has a very poor defense...nowhere near the top!

Not sure lads I’m a bit torn on him. This could make or break him. If he learns from it then he’s so young he can surely come back. He knows now that attributes alone count for little without strategy. If he goes back to the drawing board and works on the frailties exposed by that fight then his attributes will always count for something when all things are even.

But on the other hand when the bubble bursts it can be very hard to turn that tide. He could go like Price and just fight in a shell forever more. Anyone with ambition now is a good time to fight him when there’s doubt in his mind. I think he will be very brittle mentally both in the build up and in future fights so his next 3/4 days out need to be well picked and show some gradual improvement.

Hard to know how he’ll go but into the background for a while anyhow.

eagle eye · 01-12-2020 1:59am

He needs to go to somebody like Freddy Roach.

The Nal · 01-12-2020 12:17pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Not sure lads I’m a bit torn on him. This could make or break him. If he learns from it then he’s so young he can surely come back. He knows now that attributes alone count for little without strategy. If he goes back to the drawing board and works on the frailties exposed by that fight then his attributes will always count for something when all things are even.

But on the other hand when the bubble bursts it can be very hard to turn that tide. He could go like Price and just fight in a shell forever more. Anyone with ambition now is a good time to fight him when there’s doubt in his mind. I think he will be very brittle mentally both in the build up and in future fights so his next 3/4 days out need to be well picked and show some gradual improvement.

Hard to know how he’ll go but into the background for a while anyhow.

Aside from the odd flurry the other night, he was beaten up badly with the same jab that never had to even go past Joyces standing foot to land. Easy long range stuff. His defence was terrible and the less said about his head movement and footwork the better.

Didn't really offer anything. Long road back.

nacho libre · 02-12-2020 12:56pm

eagle eye wrote: »

He needs to go to somebody like Freddy Roach.

He might improve him a bit, but Dubois simply does not possess the skills to be an elite fighter in my view.

squinn2912 · 02-12-2020 9:25pm

This was the first active opponent and real fight that he’s had. He failed the test badly. It wasn’t just the eye that beat him. He hated the taste of a jab, he was exhausted looking as well. Fair few people seemed to have him up on the cards and I don’t really go with that. I had Joyce up by 2 before the stoppage/quit but Dubois’ ‘quality’ was having little to no effect on Joyce. Joyce’s work was having much more of an impact throughout and it was very obvious who was dictating the terms of the fight.

At 23 I think it’s far too early to write him off so much. He’s still a capable operator and brings quite a bit of excitement. A knock over, English or regional title and then work up to European level, fighting one or two gatekeepers along the way. That takes him 3 years and so at 27/28 he’s at an age where he will have matured much more. The more you look at it the more foolish it was to put him in with Joyce at this stage. It was even more foolish not to pull him out. I don’t think his story is finished just yet though.

US2 · 02-12-2020 9:37pm

Miller banned for 2 years, he hardly failed another test ?

OmegaGene · 02-12-2020 11:14pm

US2 wrote: »

Miller banned for 2 years, he hardly failed another test ?

His fourth positive in a year and he’s blaming impotence drugs now

walshb · 08-12-2020 4:23pm

Anyone buying the AJ card

28 euro Box Office....

Undercard is muck!!!

yourdeadwright · 08-12-2020 4:27pm

walshb wrote: »

Anyone buying the AJ card

28 euro Box Office....

Undercard is muck!!!

I won't be buying it but if there's nothing going on in the house and the kids and missus are in bed early i'll hook up the fire stick and give it watch,

If not it'll be up early Sunday and watch it

The Nal · 08-12-2020 5:25pm

Ill be watching. Big banana skin for AJ.

ebbsy · 08-12-2020 5:29pm

AJ 20/1 round 1 anyone ?

yourdeadwright · 08-12-2020 5:30pm

The Nal wrote: »

Ill be watching. Big banana skin for AJ.

Really I think Pulev is tailor made for a early AJ KO,
He's to stiff and slow and doesn't punch hard enough,

The Nal · 08-12-2020 5:38pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Really I think Pulev is tailor made for a early AJ KO,
He's to stiff and slow and doesn't punch hard enough,

Oh me too but I see everyone as a banana skin for AJ now!

Cyrus · 08-12-2020 5:48pm

ebbsy wrote: »

AJ 20/1 round 1 anyone ?

not a bad shout id say he is annoyed with all the praise Fury is getting and will want to make a big statement here.

Morrison J · 08-12-2020 7:17pm

Will be interesting to see Joshua's approach and whether he fights aggressive or not. The Joshua that fought Povetkin would KO Pulev early imo. Whether the demons are still there from the first Ruiz fight which stops him from taking risks remains to be seen.

28 euro during a pandemic is a total disgrace btw. I'll be watching but not a chance I'm paying that.

Butson · 11-12-2020 11:33am

€28? Jesus, not a hope. Cant really see the point in having a Sky Sports subscription if you are a boxing fan.

Really taking a dislike to Hearn recently. I think initially when he took over from his father he took British Boxing up off its knees but of late I think its people like him that have the sport in the state it is.
Also his comments on Daniel Dubois were pretty disgusting.

walshb · 11-12-2020 1:24pm

I have decided to not pay..

The undercard is crap..

So, you’re paying 28 euro to watch AJ against an over the hill old man..

GiftofGab · 11-12-2020 1:28pm

ebbsy wrote: »

AJ 20/1 round 1 anyone ?

Great odds but I can see AJ being cautious first few rounds while he feels Pulev out.

GiftofGab · 11-12-2020 1:32pm

Butson wrote: »

€28? Jesus, not a hope. Cant really see the point in having a Sky Sports subscription if you are a boxing fan.

Really taking a dislike to Hearn recently. I think initially when he took over from his father he took British Boxing up off its knees but of late I think its people like him that have the sport in the state it is.
Also his comments on Daniel Dubois were pretty disgusting.

Can you get Sky Sports Box Office if you're not subscribed to Sky Sports? No chance of ever watching any half decent British fighter without Box Office.
Lomenchenko vs Lopez was on Sky Sports.

Cyrus · 11-12-2020 1:37pm

ebbsy wrote: »

AJ 20/1 round 1 anyone ?

Vlad should have had him out in round 1 and the old joshua at least is a much more aggressive finisher,

i could be wrong but i cant see a whole lot in pulevs back catalogue that gives him much of a chance here.

Sandor Clegane · 11-12-2020 6:57pm

Nearly €30 for this...how can you justify that is beyond me.

Thelonious Monk · 11-12-2020 7:30pm

how do you watch this if you're on Eir does anyone know? Or is it even possible? I'm a dinosaur with this PPV stuff.
Anyway yes will prob be a walkover but you never know with AJ, he might not be as dominant as you think.

NewMan1982 · 11-12-2020 11:43pm

I think pulev will suit AJ. Seems to stand right in front of his opponent with no head movement.

Blanco100 · 12-12-2020 12:42am

Joshua talks some absolute ****e.

Like a man who is employing a life coach to boost his confidence or something.

Enjoy watching him because he's vulnerable. Pulev is basic as hell but he's game enough. And Joshua is beatable.

walshb · 12-12-2020 12:41pm

If AJ starts fast and aggressive this could be done in one!!!

Pulev is old, hittable, slow...

generalgerry · 12-12-2020 1:59pm

I'm thinking of backing Pulev tonight. I thought it was incredible how fragile AJ looked against Ruiz, and how scared of getting hit he looked in the second fight. Then I listened to a podcast with Karl Froch making the same points as I just made, and now I'm not so sure!

11/2 I think is a good value bet. Any takers?

walshb · 12-12-2020 6:11pm

generalgerry wrote: »

I'm thinking of backing Pulev tonight. I thought it was incredible how fragile AJ looked against Ruiz, and how scared of getting hit he looked in the second fight. Then I listened to a podcast with Karl Froch making the same points as I just made, and now I'm not so sure!

11/2 I think is a good value bet. Any takers?

I have a feeling Pulev will be simply too slow and ponderous to nail AJ with speedy/sharp shots..

Cyrus · 12-12-2020 6:20pm

walshb wrote: »

I have a feeling Pulev will be simply too slow and ponderous to nail AJ with speedy/sharp shots..

Yeah I don’t see pulev as the type to trouble Joshua

OmegaGene · 12-12-2020 6:32pm

Klitch wobbled him and he was past it at that point
Parker would have got the better of him only for the ref stepping in constantly
Eddie is protecting his cash cow as much as he can, maybe a mandatory will catch him out but at this age old I’m not holding out much hope of pulev doing it
At 11/2 it’s worth a small bet just for interest

Anyone fancy wach to take out fake fury ?

generalgerry · 12-12-2020 6:40pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Anyone fancy wach to take out fake fury ?

I couldn't get over how small Fury looked next to him. They are all monsters.

Morrison J · 12-12-2020 6:46pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Klitch wobbled him and he was past it at that point
Parker would have got the better of him only for the ref stepping in constantly
Eddie is protecting his cash cow as much as he can, maybe a mandatory will catch him out but at this age old I’m not holding out much hope of pulev doing it
At 11/2 it’s worth a small bet just for interest

Anyone fancy wach to take out fake fury ?

Wach shot to bits. Struggling to see an avenue for him to win tbh. He's not outboxing Fury and I think Fury has a decent chin so can't see him getting stopped. Only hope would be for Fury to get cut which has happened before tbf but couldn't talk myself into backing against him.

OmegaGene · 12-12-2020 6:50pm

Fury didn’t look in great shape when I saw the weigh in

iebamm2580 · 12-12-2020 9:04pm

Think pulev can do it, we all know Joshua's chin is dodgy.

generalgerry · 12-12-2020 9:06pm

iebamm2580 wrote: »

Think pulev can do it, we all know Joshua's chin is dodgy.

I lost the run of myself and put 50 on him, to win a possible 300

squinn2912 · 12-12-2020 9:12pm

There’s a decent pay out if Pulev does win but I think he has a snowball’s chance in hell. He might look ok, durable and pig ignorant enough to hang on in there but I’m expecting Joshua KO in round 4.

OmegaGene · 12-12-2020 9:24pm

I’m watching bakole and the dazn commentators talk absolute nonsense, it’s like they forgot about this fight and started talking about Dillian whyte being over weight last year

OmegaGene · 12-12-2020 9:24pm

generalgerry wrote: »

I lost the run of myself and put 50 on him, to win a possible 300

Good luck

Heavyweight Boxing

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