Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:13pm

strandroad wrote: »

He chose to murder them. He planned it out and prepared well in advance as evidenced in today's interview transcripts. He didn't snap or hear voices. He wanted them all dead because he felt humiliated and couldn't face the consequences.

You just said he was a sociopath? And yet you're saying he was mentally well?

That is not a normal reaction to feeling embarassed.

Calltocall · 26-02-2019 10:15pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You have to feel a certain level of sympathy for Hawe. If he had gotten the right help things could have turned put so differently. The mental health services in this country let down Alan and his family.

He was seeing a counsellor, a doctor etc how can you help someone if they don’t tell you what’s going on, he hid his plans to murder because he was capable of making that decision, because he was cunning, because he was ruthless, all the mental health services in the world won’t help certain individuals who actually manipulate talk therapists to their advantage, he knew exactly what he was doing, his sense of self/ego/pride was more important to him than his family, I would imagine a disturbed childhood or something imprinted in him from childhood to always keep the good side out no matter what, never ever lose face that is the biggest sign of frailty/weakness to admit there’s something wrong, I actually know elderly people who carry that bull**** pretence around and it is far more prevalent in ‘’supposedly’’ close knit/small rural towns, feel sorry for him my arse.

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:17pm

Calltocall wrote: »

He was seeing a counsellor, a doctor etc how can you help someone if they don’t tell you what’s going on, he hid his plans to murder because he was capable of making that decision, because he was cunning, because he was ruthless, all the mental health services in the world won’t help certain individuals who actually manipulate talk therapists to their advantage, he knew exactly what he was doing, his sense of self/ego/pride was more important to him than his family, I would imagine a disturbed childhood or something imprinted in him from childhood to always keep the good side out no matter what, never ever lose face that is the biggest sign of frailty/weakness to admit there’s something wrong, I actually know elderly people who carry that bull**** pretense around and it is far more prevalent in ‘’supposedly’’ close knit/small rural towns, feel sorry for him my arse.

He was the results of his genetics interacting with his environment.

strandroad · 26-02-2019 10:17pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You just said he was a sociopath? And yet you're saying he was mentally well?

That is not a normal reaction to feeling embarassed.

Sociopaths are not mentally ill. It's a personality disorder where you are devoid of empathy and do not care for other people. Many politicians and CEOs are likely sociopaths; they thrive on taking risks and exerting control, and are willing to sacrifice other peoples' wellbeing or indeed lives. It's how they operate. There is no therapy or cure other than learning to wear a mask of a regular human being.

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:20pm

strandroad wrote: »

Sociopaths are not mentally ill. It's a personality disorder where you are devoid of empathy and do not care for other people. Many politicians and CEOs are likely sociopaths; they thrive on taking risks and exerting control, and are willing to sacrifice other peoples' wellbeing or indeed lives. It's how they operate. There is no therapy or cure other than learning to wear a mask of a regular human being.

But he didn't choose to be a sociopath? He couldn't have felt empathy no matter how hard he tried.

donkeykong5 · 26-02-2019 10:20pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You have to feel a certain level of sympathy for Hawe. If he had gotten the right help things could have turned put so differently. The mental health services in this country let down Alan and his family.

He let down himself. Murdering cruel obnoxious bastard.

26-02-2019 10:21pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

The definition of mental illness is a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking.

Are you saying this man was mentally ok?

Paul Gilligan, CEO St Patrick's Mental Health Services, was on Morning Ireland this morning and he stated that somebody with a mental illness is statistically no more likely to commit a violent crime than somebody without a mental illness. If this is true, I'm struggling to see the relevance of his alleged/disputed mental illness to his premediated murder of his own family.

Morning Ireland interview with Paul Gilligan

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Paul Gilligan, CEO St Patrick's Mental Health Services, was on Morning Ireland this morning and he stated that somebody with a mental illness is statistically no more likely to commit a violent crime than somebody without a mental illness. If this is true, I'm struggling to see the relevance of his alleged/disputed mental illness to his premediated murder of his own family.

Morning Ireland interview with Paul Gilligan

So people who get violent during a psychotic episode are choosing to do that because they are bad people?

Mrsmum · 26-02-2019 10:24pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

You have to feel a certain level of sympathy for Hawe. If he had gotten the right help things could have turned put so differently. The mental health services in this country let down Alan and his family.

I think the mental health services can only help you if you are open to being helped and I suspect he wasn't. Because that would involve letting his guard down and being honest about faults and failings. Imo he had created a perfect persona, upstanding citizen, respectable job, perfect wife, perfect family, beautiful home whereas the reality of his inner person fell way short. That secret life was well hidden but when there's a big discrepancy between who you are and who you're pretending to be, there often comes a breaking point. Often people who arrive at that stage find honesty is a source of relief but imo honesty for AH would in his mind equal failure. Basically I think he was a weak person and weak people can be extremely dangerous.

Calltocall · 26-02-2019 10:24pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

He was the results of his genetics interacting with his environment.

Your point being?

strandroad · 26-02-2019 10:25pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

But he didn't choose to be a sociopath? He couldn't have felt empathy no matter how hard he tried.

So what? He was smart, he knew murder is wrong, he taught it to school children probably. He still did it.There are many sociopaths among us, it's a popular disorder. They manage to stop short of mass murder. He was cornered and decided to leave with his belongings.

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:28pm

strandroad wrote: »

So what? He was smart, he knew murder is wrong, he taught it to school children probably. He still did it.There are many sociopaths among us, it's a popular disorder. They manage to stop short of mass murder. He was cornered and decided to leave with his belongings.

Why do the sociopaths stop short of murder? Only because it doesn't benefit their place in society.

strandroad · 26-02-2019 10:31pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Why do the sociopaths stop short of murder? Only because it doesn't benefit their place in society.

Sociopaths strategise very well, they just don't care about others. Murder is inconvenient in most cases so it's not worth it.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 10:33pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

So people who get violent during a psychotic episode are choosing to do that because they are bad people?

He pre planned this murder . Step by step down to moving furniture to facilitate a clear passage . It an insult to Clodagh and her sons to somehow try to excuse his violent attack .
Would you be as sympathetic if he attacked a member of your family ?

Hannibal_Smith · 26-02-2019 10:38pm

Sorry...im going over old road here i know.

But he stopped the counselling in June. Is it possible he was using the summer as one last hurrah with the family and he was always planning that night was going to be the night? That the colleague was going to tell on him in Sept. There was no need for the counselling anymore because there was an end in sight?

Zeek12 · 26-02-2019 10:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Paul Gilligan, CEO St Patrick's Mental Health Services, was on Morning Ireland this morning and he stated that somebody with a mental illness is statistically no more likely to commit a violent crime than somebody without a mental illness. If this is true, I'm struggling to see the relevance of his alleged/disputed mental illness to his premediated murder of his own family.

Morning Ireland interview with Paul Gilligan

He also made the point that people suffering from mental illness are statistically far more inclined to self harm..... rather than harm others

wobatkicker23 · 26-02-2019 10:41pm

strandroad wrote: »

Sociopaths strategise very well, they just don't care about others. Murder is inconvenient in most cases so it's not worth it.

Exactly. If it benefited them and they knew they wouldn't get caught they would do it. So how can you blame him for his personality disorder?

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 10:42pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Sorry...im going over old road here i know.

But he stopped the counselling in June. Is it possible he was using the summer as one last hurrah with the family and he was always planning that night was going to be the night? That the colleague was going to tell on him in Sept. There was no need for the counselling anymore because there was an end in sight?

I don't think any of us really know. We can all assume what happened.
The incident at work could have happend in June, July or August and we don't know what it is or if it was even or was reported.
I would find it strange tough somebody sitting on it for months before reporting it because it would look bad on them if it was serious.

strandroad · 26-02-2019 10:45pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Exactly. If it benefited them and they knew they wouldn't get caught they would do it. So how can you blame him for his personality disorder?

Sociopaths are capable of making choices. He made a choice.

donkeykong5 · 26-02-2019 10:47pm

It's on now on rte1. Primetime

Marengo · 26-02-2019 10:56pm

I'm always inclined to take family viewpoints, for example Clodagh's mam and sister saying he hadn't depression and functioned in society, over an 'expert' categorising, who never even met the individual.

The Bishop Basher · 26-02-2019 10:59pm

Just watched it.. Jesus.. Hard watching

Whatever evil happened that night, there’s probably very little anyone could have done to have stopped him..

But the way the state has treated them both immediately afterward and in the time since is something we can control and yet we’re adding to their misery in such an inhuman way.

There’s something very wrong with our society that we accept that.

Fair play to them for having the guts to speak up.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 10:59pm

Marengo wrote: »

I'm always inclined to take family viewpoints, for example Clodagh's mam and sister saying he hadn't depression and functioned in society, over an 'expert' categorising, who never even met the individual.

Exactly . Or a random poster on boards who diagnoses without any evidence

Bobeagleburger · 26-02-2019 11:04pm

Crazy that the family are left asking questions. Disgraceful.

Something stinks

retro:electro · 26-02-2019 11:04pm

Can’t help but feel like Charles Flanagan was just playing word salad right there and saying a lot without actually saying anything it all. “I’ll look into it and see what can be done”, in other words he’ll kick the can down the road long enough to hope we all forget about it and something else comes along and distracts us. I didn’t feel any sincerity or commitment behind his words.

MintyMagnum · 26-02-2019 11:04pm

It was in Windgap in 2008 where a local man murdered a single mother and her 2 children on Christmas eve, her brother has spoken out a lot in the media about the rights of victims families. The difference being the man who murdered his sister and nieces is still alive and his concerns are around concurrent sentencing and parole.[/quote]

Concurrent sentencing's a joke. If he killed three people he's only doing one third the time for it. Which two victims aren't getting their justice?

nice_guy80 · 26-02-2019 11:06pm

tretorn wrote: »

He was a teacher though so basically on his own for most of the day with children.

There are plenty of really strange teachers who wouldnt be able to function in a normal working environment, they are left in the teaching profession until retirement and given a new class every year so their failure to be able to do their job doesnt cause too much of an impact. Its absolutely impossible to get rid of poorly performing teachers too though this does appear to be changing very slowly.

Teachers are also drawn to the job because of love and devotion to the GAA, lots of time off to devote to the GAA and being a member of this organisation gives you kudos in small towns and the edge when it comes to promotion, ie how many male teachers are there and how many male principals, very few male teachers but lots of male principals.

A lot of female teachers don't want management roles.
A lot of male teachers are expected to take on management roles

would it make it easier for you to accept if he had been a sociopath working in a rugby school and with a rugby background?
Or a soccer school. Or a basketball school?

Where is there evidence he was a failing teacher?

aloneforever99 · 26-02-2019 11:08pm

wobatkicker23 wrote: »

Exactly. If it benefited them and they knew they wouldn't get caught they would do it. So how can you blame him for his personality disorder?

Because he was still a person with choices. He made a conscious decision to stop attending counselling. If he had continued, there is a good chance this could have been avoided. He could have checked himself into a psychiatric unit. Help is available for people having psychotic thoughts.

Your position seems to be that because of his (probable) mental illness, these murders were inevitable. They weren't.

tretorn · 26-02-2019 11:11pm

If they had been given the suicide note the day of the murders they could have avoided the trauma of the exhumation, Hawe himself wrote that he wanted to be cremated and someone who read that note knew that and still let him be buried with his victims. The note should have been given to the intended recipients and maybe if the contents were known it might have prevented the GAA jumper being placed on Hawes coffin, to think anyone would think this gesture was appropriate.

I don’t agree with Paul Gillian either re people with mental health difficulties not being dangerous, the incidences of parents taking their children’s lives in increasing, some aren’t as savage as Hawe was but in most cases there was underlying mental illness.

In the recent past we had two children killed by their mothers, we had three young boys killed by older brothers. We had children killed by their father in Cork and the Chads boys murdered by their father. We had a young woman attacked by a fourteen year old in Dunlaoghaire, she almost lost her life.

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2019 11:12pm

It is too late now, the family is gone sadly.

But I am very puzzled at the fact that relevant information has been witheld from the family. I just do not understand this. The entire family is gone.

So who is being protected here I wonder?

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 11:15pm

tretorn wrote: »

If they had been given the suicide note the day of the murders they could have avoided the trauma of the exhumation, Hawe himself wrote that he wanted to be cremated and someone who read that note knew that and still let him be buried with his victims. The note should have been given to the intended recipients and maybe if the contents were known it might have prevented the GAA jumper being placed on Hawes coffin, to think anyone would think this gesture was appropriate.

I don’t agree with Paul Gillian either re people with mental health difficulties not being dangerous, the incidences of parents taking their children’s lives in increasing, some aren’t as savage as Hawe was but in most cases there was underlying mental illness.

In the recent past we had two children killed by their mothers, we had three young boys killed by older brothers. We had children killed by their father in Cork and the Chads boys murdered by their father. We had a young woman attacked by a fourteen year old in Dunlaoghaire, she almost lost her life.

A suicide note has to be treated as evedience tough. Encase there was another issue involved
It depends on where you draw the line with mental health issues.
Do you think that family should be involved in all case when somebody presents themselves to a GP?

Calhoun · 26-02-2019 11:16pm

tretorn wrote: »

If they had been given the suicide note the day of the murders they could have avoided the trauma of the exhumation, Hawe himself wrote that he wanted to be cremated and someone who read that note knew that and still let him be buried with his victims. The note should have been given to the intended recipients and maybe if the contents were known it might have prevented the GAA jumper being placed on Hawes coffin, to think anyone would think this gesture was appropriate.

I don’t agree with Paul Gillian either re people with mental health difficulties not being dangerous, the incidences of parents taking their children’s lives in increasing, some aren’t as savage as Hawe was but in most cases there was underlying mental illness.

In the recent past we had two children killed by their mothers, we had three young boys killed by older brothers. We had children killed by their father in Cork and the Chads boys murdered by their father. We had a young woman attacked by a fourteen year old in Dunlaoghaire, she almost lost her life.

Dangerous line of thought to be taking.

Mrsmum · 26-02-2019 11:17pm

In a way I think the mum and sister have been too polite. Like if my daughter/sister and not one but three grandchildren/nephews were murdered by a teacher in a school (leaving aside the son in law situation) and some issue at school was likely part of the story if not the pivotal factor, I think I'd be down to the school to speak to the principal about what exactly happened. Parents are in to schools every day about far less matters. I don't know how they have restrained themselves from not turning up on the doorstep. Course by rights it should be the school contacting them but failing that get down to them and ask them what's the story. It's ridiculous that they are not fully in the know.

26-02-2019 11:21pm

MintyMagnum wrote: »

The difference being the man who murdered his sister and nieces is still alive and his concerns are around concurrent sentencing and parole.

concurrent sentencing's a joke. If he killed three people he's only doing one third the time for it. Which two victims aren't getting their justice?

Concurrent sentencing for murder is a bit academic, isn't it?

Murder means life in prison. It doesn't matter how many life sentences he gets, one or two or three, he'll still be eligible for temporary, conditional release after perhaps 12 - 15 years, maybe later.

The Minister can leave him in there forever, if he likes.

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2019 11:22pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

In a way I think the mum and sister have been too polite. Like if my daughter/sister and not one but three grandchildren/nephews were murdered by a teacher in a school (leaving aside the son in law situation) and some issue at school was likely part of the story if not the pivotal factor, I think I'd be down to the school to speak to the principal about what exactly happened. Parents are in to schools every day about far less matters. I don't know how they have restrained themselves from not turning up on the doorstep. Course by rights it should be the school contacting them but failing that get down to them and ask them what's the story. It's ridiculous that they are not fully in the know.

Yes it is odd. But I have no way of saying what the surviving family's thinking on confrontation is either.

Very very sad anyway no matter what.

tretorn · 26-02-2019 11:24pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Dangerous line of thought to be taking.

Why do you think it’s a dangerous line of thought.

How are we ever to know the background to these family animation tragedies if we don’t examine each one individually.

You are more likely to harm your loved ones and strangers if you suffer from paranoid delusions for example, pretending otherwise is not helpful.

The Central Mental Hospital is fully occupied at the moment and many in mates there should never be released.

Marengo · 26-02-2019 11:26pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Can’t help but feel like Charles Flanagan was just playing word salad right there and saying a lot without actually saying anything it all. “I’ll look into it and see what can be done”, in other words he’ll kick the can down the road long enough to hope we all forget about it and something else comes along and distracts us. I didn’t feel any sincerity or commitment behind his words.

He's pure useless all his career.

Calhoun · 26-02-2019 11:26pm

tretorn wrote: »

Why do you think it’s a dangerous line of thought.

How are we ever to know the background to these family animation tragedies if we don’t examine each one individually.

You are more likely to harm your loved ones and strangers if you suffer from paranoid delusions for example, pretending otherwise is not helpful.

The Central Mental Hospital is fully occupied at the moment and many in mates there should never be released.

Well generally the consensus of late and you can see it in this thread is that people with mental disabilities should be treated as equals.

Mrsmum · 26-02-2019 11:28pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yes it is odd. But I have no way of saying what the surviving family's thinking on confrontation is either.

Very very sad anyway no matter what.

True and just to say I didn't mean it in any way as a criticism of those two lovely grieving people. It's just I can't understand it really.

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2019 11:29pm

Marengo wrote: »

He's pure useless all his career.

Ah well, I bet he is glad he is not Minister for Foreign Affairs anymore. With Brexit I mean.

Over to Coveney and all that.

Marengo · 26-02-2019 11:31pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Exactly . Or a random poster on boards who diagnoses without any evidence

A lot of people were entitled to post their opinions on boards today, given the real evidence of last night's interview. The bridesmaid's dress buying incident, his constant presence without saying anything etc.

Sure random boards posters have plenty of evidence from Clodagh's family and are free to comment without little digs 6 hours after their last post on the subject.

tretorn · 26-02-2019 11:34pm

It’s just nonsense to say that someone with schizophrenia or someone suffering a psychosis is as safe to be around as someone who has good mental health.

This isn’t discriminating against people with mental illness, it means that professionals dealing with people with mental illness must be aware that they could pose a threat to others.

26-02-2019 11:36pm

tretorn wrote: »

It’s just nonsense to say that someone with schizophrenia or someone suffering a psychosis is as safe to be around as someone who has good mental health.

On the other hand, people with psychosis are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators.

aloneforever99 · 26-02-2019 11:38pm

tretorn wrote: »

It’s just nonsense to say that someone with schizophrenia or someone suffering a psychosis is as safe to be around as someone who has good mental health.

This isn’t discriminating against people with mental illness, it means that professionals dealing with people with mental illness must be aware that they could pose a threat to others.

Have you ever been around someone having a psychotic break? There are symptoms. It would be very difficult - I'd say almost impossible - to be in a psychotic state for several weeks, go on a family holiday, visit the in-laws etc and for no one to notice.

It seems unlikely to me that this was the case here.

His counsellor also apparently didn't pick up any red flags.

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2019 11:38pm

The saddest thing is, that the four murders and the suicide would have faded off the radar if Clodagh's sister and mother had not been interviewed last night.

Was there any comment from the murderer's family at all, anything or nothing? Those murdered were their relatives, daughter in law and nephews too.

I suppose in fairness his family are not responsible for his actions. So I will leave it there.

tretorn · 26-02-2019 11:44pm

I’m not posting specifically in relation to Hawe.

I am saying mental illness could result in some people becoming dangerous and delusional so I don’t agree a person with good mental health is as likely to kill as someone with a deep rooted mental illness.

The numbers of very young children being killed by parents is rising and in many of these cases the parent is mentally unwell.

He may have gone to the counsellor and gave limited information. The family don’t know did he go to the counsellor after the incident in the school or was he caught viewing porn in the days leading up to the school opening. The Coll’s said he never brought the school laptop home so if he was addicted to porn he must have been on it a lot in school time, maybe his heavy use of porn became impossible to hide and how would he pay for it anyway, surely at some point he would have to use his credit card to pay for it.

26-02-2019 11:46pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The saddest thing is, that the four murders and the suicide would have faded off the radar if Clodagh's sister and mother had not been interviewed last night.

Was there any comment from the murderer's family at all, anything or nothing? Those murdered were their relatives, daughter in law and nephews too.

I suppose in fairness his family are not responsible for his actions. So I will leave it there.

On a related note - and I'm sure it's not relevant here, because nobody should be disparaging the Hawe family - but it's ridiculous that, as the last surviving family member, the family's property and assets is now, presumably, the legal property of the Hawe family.

I'm sure nobody wants the house, and it's not relevant to this case, but we rapidly need to change our legislation so that murderers cannot extend a benefit to themselves, or similar.

Mrsmum · 26-02-2019 11:53pm

Can anyone tell me did the children attend the same school as the father or not ?

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2019 11:58pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

On a related note - and I'm sure it's not relevant here, because nobody should be disparaging the Hawe family - but it's ridiculous that, as the last surviving family member, the family's property and assets is now, presumably, the legal property of the Hawe family.

I'm sure nobody wants the house, and it's not relevant to this case, but we rapidly need to change our legislation so that murderers cannot extend a benefit to themselves, or similar.

Too late for me to figure this out, but I reckon you might have a good point there. So let us say that the house was held in joint names. Clodagh is murdered by the other joint holder, meaning he now has sole ownership. He dies and the house and maybe other assets can be distributed to his next of kin (if no will).

Is that the way you are thinking?

I apologise if my post appears insensitive, but it is worth exploring I think.

27-02-2019 12:02am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Too late for me to figure this out, but I reckon you might have a good point there. So let us say that the house was held in joint names. Clodagh is murdered by the other joint holder, meaning he now has sole ownership. He dies and the house and maybe other assets can be distributed to his next of kin (if no will).

Is that the way you are thinking?

I apologise if my post appears insensitive, but it is worth exploring I think.

No you have it exactly right.

After Clodagh Hawe died, her assets passed in law to Alan Hawe, and since he was the last person alive, I'm pretty sure no will can even supersede the statutory provisions. So everything should pass to his next of kin.

He and his wife probably had a provision in their will that the kids should receive the assets but that's moot.

Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

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