Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

aloooof · 12-05-2020 9:32am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I suppose they go hand-in-hand to some extent. Was it Ringrose a couple of years ago who said what they were trying to do under Farrell was get width in the defensive line so they could come up aggressively without fear of being beaten on the outside?

Anyway, you can't watch the endgame of the 2012 Wales 6N game where Wales marched 60m upfield before scoring the winning penalty or the Argentina quarter final or the 2013 All Blacks endgame and tell me that Ireland didn't employ a very passive defensive system. NZ got a lot of credit for going through all those phases without a mistake, but when the ball actually did go to deck where was the pressure from the Irish defence? Nowhere. That's where. Nonu was able to pick it up under no pressure like he was going for a stroll in the park. Even when NZ take the tap after McGrath is penalised the majority of the Ireland players retreat to the halfway line, giving them 12m instead of nine and a half.

Players were out on their feet at the end of that game. It was far more down to fatigue, imo. They weren't doing it by design.

Scottmactom · 12-05-2020 9:38am

Leinster's most creative backline?

9. Jamison Gibson Park
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Tommy O'Brien
12. Harry Byrne
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Jimmy O'Brien
15. Ciaran Frawley

Clegg · 12-05-2020 9:40am

How are you defining creativity here? Lowe and Larmour can magic linebreaks and offloads from anything. They'd have to be present in any backline.

sydthebeat · 12-05-2020 9:41am

Clegg wrote: »

How are you defining creativity here? Lowe and Larmour can magic linebreaks and offloads from anything. They'd have to be present in any backline.

Creative by sticking a load of 10s in there?

Shefwedfan · 12-05-2020 9:46am

Henshaw really gets a bashing on here, not sure what he has done. Yes he is a competitive player and he likes a bit of a bashing but he has incredible ability to pass etc.....his 12/13 combo with Ringrose is one of the best in World, just they have not played much togetehr recently

Shefwedfan · 12-05-2020 9:46am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Creative by sticking a load of 10s in there?

50% of the players are 10's

Not sure how creative it would be with players out of position

Scottmactom · 12-05-2020 9:49am

Clegg wrote: »

How are you defining creativity here? Lowe and Larmour can magic linebreaks and offloads from anything. They'd have to be present in any backline.

playmakers on the ball

Clegg · 12-05-2020 11:32am

These Under 7's have long memories

https://twitter.com/seapointrfc/status/1259903693048156161?s=19

Richie_Rich89 · 12-05-2020 3:20pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Henshaw really gets a bashing on here, not sure what he has done. Yes he is a competitive player and he likes a bit of a bashing but he has incredible ability to pass etc.....his 12/13 combo with Ringrose is one of the best in World, just they have not played much togetehr recently

Ah, I'm not sure about that. They're not the most creative as a combo. I was watching highlights of the 2012 league final after the talk of the defence that season. O'Driscoll has a really nice try assist in it. I think that ability to create space for other people and then pass, putting them into a hole, is a not very strong element of Ringrose's game. He's more about trying to beat defenders by himself. He wouldn't have BOD's vision. You couldn't really imagine him pulling out a try-scoring pass like O'Driscoll's to Zebo in that game against Wales in 2012 or 2013.

I'd say the only part of Henshaw's game at 12 that is world class is his defence. He's brilliant at that. Don't know what kind of level you're measuring him by when you say he has incredible ability to pass. Certainly not world level, I don't think. He shows a bit more skill in more space at 13, but he's thrown some shockers in his time. He's not a natural 12, for me. He looks constrained in the role.

I'd say the most creative backline would be:

9. Jamison Gibson-Park
10. Harry Byrne
11. Rory O'Loughlin
12. Conor O'Brien
13. Jimmy O'Brien
14. Tommy O'Brien/Hugo Keenan
15. Ciarán Frawley

Conor and Jimmy O'Brien played a bit of outhalf at lower levels, and Frawley still does, obviously.

Quin_Dub · 12-05-2020 4:04pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Ah, I'm not sure about that. They're not the most creative as a combo. I was watching highlights of the 2012 league final after the talk of the defence that season. O'Driscoll has a really nice try assist in it. I think that ability to create space for other people and then pass, putting them into a hole, is a not very strong element of Ringrose's game. He's more about trying to beat defenders by himself. He wouldn't have BOD's vision. You couldn't really imagine him pulling out a try-scoring pass like O'Driscoll's to Zebo in that game against Wales in 2012 or 2013.

I'd say the only part of Henshaw's game at 12 that is world class is his defence. He's brilliant at that. Don't know what kind of level you're measuring him by when you say he has incredible ability to pass. Certainly not world level, I don't think. He shows a bit more skill in more space at 13, but he's thrown some shockers in his time. He's not a natural 12, for me. He looks constrained in the role.

I'd say the most creative backline would be:

9. Jamison Gibson-Park
10. Harry Byrne
11. Rory O'Loughlin
12. Conor O'Brien
13. Jimmy O'Brien
14. Tommy O'Brien/Hugo Keenan
15. Ciarán Frawley

Conor and Jimmy O'Brien played a bit of outhalf at lower levels, and Frawley still does, obviously.

Playing an out-half out of position in the centre or on the wing doesn't make them "more creative" it just puts them under pressure..

All the creativity in the world counts for very little if the guy outside , for example doesn't have the necessary wingers pace to make use of the lovely cut out pass or whatever from the guy inside..

aloooof · 12-05-2020 4:12pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Playing an out-half out of position in the centre or on the wing doesn't make them "more creative" it just puts them under pressure..

All the creativity in the world counts for very little if the guy outside , for example doesn't have the necessary wingers pace to make use of the lovely cut out pass or whatever from the guy inside..

Not to mention it's pretty hard to play-make from the wing... but if Richie wants to believe that those lads would make a better fist of it than Sexton, Larmour, Lowe, Ringrose etc. leave him at it!

Richie_Rich89 · 12-05-2020 4:17pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Playing an out-half out of position in the centre or on the wing doesn't make them "more creative" it just puts them under pressure..

All the creativity in the world counts for very little if the guy outside , for example doesn't have the necessary wingers pace to make use of the lovely cut out pass or whatever from the guy inside..

Erm, yeah. That's why I don't have outhalves playing out of position?

You know COB's primary position is 12, JOB plays 13 and 15 and Frawley can play 10, 12 and 15, right?

Richie_Rich89 · 12-05-2020 6:01pm

aloooof wrote: »

Not to mention it's pretty hard to play-make from the wing... but if Richie wants to believe that those lads would make a better fist of it than Sexton, Larmour, Lowe, Ringrose etc. leave him at it!

What's your argument? That players who are ahead overall are automatically, retroactively better in every single facet of play (e.g. acceleration, speed endurance, creativity, power etc.) just by dint of being ahead overall?

Noel Reid is objectively more creative as a 12 than Robbie Henshaw is.

Aaron Sexton is objectively faster than Jacob Stockdale.

You seem to be conflating two different things.

Shefwedfan · 12-05-2020 7:04pm

Based on the backline picked so far, I am just sticking all the players name on a dart board and firing darts at it, see how it ends up :-)

prawnsambo · 12-05-2020 9:56pm

I love when people say 'objectively' and then proceed with an opinion.

Dravokivich · 13-05-2020 12:55pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

What's your argument? That players who are ahead overall are automatically, retroactively better in every single facet of play (e.g. acceleration, speed endurance, creativity, power etc.) just by dint of being ahead overall?

Noel Reid is objectively more creative as a 12 than Robbie Henshaw is.

Aaron Sexton is objectively faster than Jacob Stockdale.

You seem to be conflating two different things.

I dunno. As a 12 I'd say Noel Reid was keen to play where he was needed when you take into account he came through the academy as a 10. He was decent in Defense and good at attack. But he was not quite what I'd consider creative. He responded well to what was happening around him, but he didn't tend to do anything to expose the opposition nor misled them.

PMC83 · 13-05-2020 9:25pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3g4c-rkzEw

Interview with Mads, interesting listen, but not too upbeat on his part

salmocab · 13-05-2020 9:42pm

Salanoa off to Munster apparently. Seems an odd enough move.

Squidgy Black · 13-05-2020 9:44pm

Reports that Salanoa is off to Munster, and the top brass aren't too pleased with the IRFU as we'd convinced him to turn down Connacht to stay.

Probably a good move for him in terms of game time considering we have Abdaladze, Aungier and Clarkson behind Porter and Furlong, and Bent (if he doesn't retire before the season starts back). But I'd imagine it's extremely frustrating for management to go through bringing him over and getting him up to speed for the IRFU to reportedly be pushing the move.

irishbucsfan · 13-05-2020 9:47pm

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

Clegg · 13-05-2020 9:49pm

The IRFU are very keen to promote the other provinces as good destinations for Leinster players. And why wouldn't they? It's in their best interests to get as many talented player playing regularly. Very frustrating as a Leinster fan though. We're seeing players developed by the province being poached by the others, and them reaping the benefit. Not quite the same issue with Salonoa as he only arrived relatively recently. Best of luck to him.

Strange move to go to Munster though. They have Ryan and Archer already there and their other poach Knox as third choice.

pickarooney · 13-05-2020 9:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

I thought he came knocking of his own accord

salmocab · 13-05-2020 9:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

Not really but they have invested a lot of effort into getting him to the level he’s at.

Squidgy Black · 13-05-2020 9:52pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

Eddie O'Sullivan linked him up with the sub-academy through the scouting bits he was doing stateside but Leinster were the ones who brought him over and gave him a trial I believe

sydthebeat · 13-05-2020 9:53pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

Wasnt Eddie o sullivan and wes liddy quite instrumental in getting him a shot at leinster?

Clegg · 13-05-2020 9:54pm

With Porter and Furlong in situ we're well sorted at tighthead for the medium term.at least. Unless pressure is out on Porter to consider his longer term prospects ofc.

irishbucsfan · 13-05-2020 9:55pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Wasnt Eddie o sullivan and wes liddy quite instrumental in getting him a shot at leinster?

My understanding was they did most of the legwork yes.

Maybe Leinster might feel they invested sub academy time in him that was lost, but can't really see anyone being too upset. It's a good move for him if Munster are letting a couple THs go as rumoured.

It'll be a great story for him if he eventually gets to the required standard

Stan27 · 13-05-2020 9:58pm

Anyone know how martin maloney got on this year?

FellasFellas · 13-05-2020 10:53pm

Stan27 wrote: »

Anyone know how martin maloney got on this year?

Was injured for a lot of it. Was impressive for Belvo in AIL when he played. A player I rate definitely.

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 7:29am

3 years academy coaching at leinster has gotten him a pro deal with Munster, great work by him and leinster academy coaches.

Good luck to him at Munster bar when playing Leinster, he isn't a huge loss at the end of the day and i'd rather he went south than Tom Clarkson.

14-05-2020 9:36am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did Leinster actually go through much effort bringing him over originally?

salmocab · 14-05-2020 9:38am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You busy this morning?

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 9:39am

With Salanoa & Aungier gone.

TH Prop next season:
Tadhg Furlong(27/New Ross RFC/Clontarf)
Andrew Porter(24/St. Andrews/UCD)
Michael Bent(34/New Zealand)
Vakh Albadaze(24/Coolmine RFC/Clontarf)
--
Tom Clarkson(20/Blackrock/DUFC)

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2020 9:42am

Scottmactom wrote: »

With Salanoa gone.

TH Prop next season:
Tadhg Furlong(27/New Ross RFC/Clontarf)
Andrew Porter(24/St. Andrews/UCD)
Michael Bent(34/New Zealand)
Vakh Albadaze(24/Coolmine RFC/Clontarf)
Jack Aungier(21/Suttonians RFC/Clontarf)
--
Tom Clarkson(20/Blackrock/DUFC)

That's pretty well stocked, to be fair. A bit frustrating but nothing to worry about. It's just a consequence of leinster having such a great system that thy end up with too many good prospects.

I wish him well and I'm happy for Munster to be getting a good prospect. They haven't had an Ireland standard TH in a while.

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 9:44am

Especially given Clarkson is such an impressive prospect.

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 9:46am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's pretty well stocked, to be fair. A bit frustrating but nothing to worry about. It's just a consequence of leinster having such a great system that thy end up with too many good prospects.

I wish him well and I'm happy for Munster to be getting a good prospect. They haven't had an Ireland standard TH in a while.

He is miles away from being international standard.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2020 9:55am

Scottmactom wrote: »

He is miles away from being international standard.

Hence calling him a good prospect.

Quin_Dub · 14-05-2020 10:03am

Scottmactom wrote: »

He is miles away from being international standard.

It will be an interesting decision for him - Technically he's Irish qualified from next year as he can qualify under the 3 year rule , but I really don't see him making an Irish team , he might though he's only been playing the game for 4 or 5 years so his development curve has been pretty impressive but it's still unlikely.

However , as a full time Pro in Europe he'd make a US match day squad pretty handily I'd think - Certainly a shoo-in for a World Cup squad in a couple of years if he stays healthy.

So , does he take a potential offer from the US for a snr Cap but then make himself an overseas player for Munster making his contract more difficult to keep on or does he stay technically "Irish qualified" but never actually get capped for anyone?

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 10:05am

LEINSTER ACADEMY TIGHTHEAD prop Jack Aungier is set to join Connacht ahead of next season.

https://www.the42.ie/jack-aungier-leinster-connacht-5098637-May2020/

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 10:08am

Leinsters reward for developing talent, to be plundered by rival provinces and left light during internationals.

Buer · 14-05-2020 10:15am

Didn't mind losing Salanoa. He's 23 this year and really still very raw in his development. He could be 25 before he's ready to feature in match day squads.

Aungier is a different story though. He was straight into the academy from school and a good prospect. He still had a long way to go but I was impressed by his work rate around the field and he showed up well coming off the bench in some real dogfights this season. He featured in all of our away games in Glasgow, Ospreys and Munster. At 21, he had a decent future ahead of him, I reckon.

That's both of our academy tightheads gone to other provinces now. With Porter and Furlong gone, we're now left with Bent, Abdaladze and Clarkson as our only tightheads between senior and academy panels, assuming Bent does re-sign. Options aren't exactly thick on the ground.

Podge_irl · 14-05-2020 10:17am

Should make for some interesting times during international periods. And judging by the talk, that could be half the season!

Clegg · 14-05-2020 10:34am

It's hard to stomach losing young players you've taken the time to develop. But it isn't as bad as losing first teamers or sure fire future internationals. The Carbery one was far worse.

I dread the thought of the IRFU putting pressure on a Doris or Deegan.

Scottmactom · 14-05-2020 10:35am

Clegg wrote: »

It's hard to stomach losing young players you've taken the time to develop. But it isn't as bad as losing first teamers or sure fire future internationals. The Carbery one was far worse.

I dread the thought of the IRFU putting pressure on a Doris or Deegan.

Only a matter of time.

Clegg · 14-05-2020 10:40am

Frawley is another I'd hate to see go. Has potential to be a very good 12/15.

Clegg · 14-05-2020 10:45am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Only a matter of time.

Maybe. It's going to be a straight shoot out between Conan and Doris for the 8 jersey. I can see Deegan developing into a good 6 with continued game time there. Doesn't have the frame of a typical blindside, but has a rounded skillset to excel there.

thomond2006 · 14-05-2020 10:46am

Scottmactom wrote: »

Leinsters reward for developing talent, to be plundered by rival provinces and left light during internationals.

Ye poor craturs. How dare those players exercise free will.

Unfortunately for Leinster this is just a side effect of having a top level starter (27 years old) and replacement (24 years old) in their 23 who are nowhere close to slowing down or retiring. If young players behind them feel there is no prospect of breaking into the side then can you blame them for leaving? The more years they spend not playing the more their value plummets.

Losing two young players at the same time in the same position is a dose but it's because the players ahead of them are excellent, not because Leinster can't compete financially or are a basket case club.

Rockbeast2 · 14-05-2020 10:48am

Ostensibly it's a good move for the two lads if, and it's a big IF, their development continues AND they get meaningful game time. I think Aungier will go on to be a 20+ caps player.

On the other hand, and I will get shot down for this, is the IRFU not just cannibalizing resources here? At one stage at least, the provinces' raison d'etre was to produce players for the Irish representative teams, no? Are Munster doing enough?

realhorrorshow · 14-05-2020 10:50am

Another way of looking at it is that Leinster signed too many tightheads and weren’t able to keep them all happy.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2020 10:51am

Scottmactom wrote: »

LEINSTER ACADEMY TIGHTHEAD prop Jack Aungier is set to join Connacht ahead of next season.

https://www.the42.ie/jack-aungier-leinster-connacht-5098637-May2020/

That's a step too far. Two prospects from the same position is too much. Now they're beginning to look like they're just using the Leinster academy for the whole country. Why would Connacht bother to improve the academy if they can rely on a stream of young talent developed in the Leinster academy?

I'm fine with them moving excess players different positions but not two from the same position.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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