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Sex education in schools!
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freshpopcorn wrote: »How do you think sex education should be taught in schools?
It’s taught already as building on the knowledge that the child’s parents have already imparted to them, with their parents consent. That’s how it should be imparted - parents impart their values on their own children and the school reinforces those values.Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »I don't think I'd trust a lot parents to teach about homosexuality to be honest. Especially not the conservative ones.
And you’d be absolutely right not to trust a lot of parents to teach their children about homosexuality. The question I’d have though is why you imagine parents need to teach their own children (who are more likely to be straight than gay) about something which the parents themselves are unlikely to have much knowledge of, let alone consider that their straight children require such knowledge to prepare them for their adulthood?
Conservative or liberal really doesn’t make any difference in my experience, children are generally fairly handy at figuring out their shìt in their own time in their own way at their own pace.0 -
I don't see why. Most parents never had formal sex and relationship education. The fact that they managed to reproduce hardly qualifies them to teach their kids about it.
besides, no-one likes hearing their parents talk about sex.
Because its part of rearing your kid for the world of adulthood.
Teachers havent had expert education on the topic either. Cspe and sphe are just thrown on their timetable.0 -
I don't see why. Most parents never had formal sex and relationship education. The fact that they managed to reproduce hardly qualifies them to teach their kids about it.
besides, no-one likes hearing their parents talk about sex.
It’s not a matter of whether or not the children’s parents have reproduced* that qualifies them to impart their values regarding relationships, sex and sexuality on their children. It’s the fact that they are their children’s parents.
*worth noting that some parents have never reproduced with each other yet are legally their children’s parents.0 -
Our science teacher, who was psychopath, promptly ignored the reproduction system in humans to the next chapter over.
We were disappointed to say the least, had been looking forward to it for the previous two weeks.
It was, of course, a catholic school. The most catholic school that ever catholic.0 -
Chancer3001 wrote: »Science class should deal with mechanics.
Cspe class with the laws and consent
Sphe with equality for lgbt and peer pressure and emotions around sex.
99% should come from home tho
Nearly all of that is covered in 1st year SPHE. They look at puberty all the bits n bobs, stages of development, pregnancy, gender, sexual orientation, consent, sexual maturity.
In second year its covered again, but more in-depth and deeper details of STDs.
Same with 3rd year and again in 5th year.Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!
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I found it was an anti-climax to be honest.0
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orourkeda1977 wrote: »Most kids could probably teach the teachers a thing or two about the aul ridin'
Said the aforementioned priest that was sacked/emptied his sack.0 -
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Imo we give too much inportance to sex ed and not enough to "dont be a dick" ed0
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My sex education consisted of a video depicting penises for 20 minutes, and then it showed a picture of a vagina for a split second and it was over. I felt so cheated.0
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SoundsRight wrote: »I'd stick to the basics, if parents want to teach kids about LGBT stuff they can do that in their own time.
The attempts to politicise sex education in schools is worrying
Feminist politics is embedded deeply in the planned new coriculum0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »
And you’d be absolutely right not to trust a lot of parents to teach their children about homosexuality. The question I’d have though is why you imagine parents need to teach their own children (who are more likely to be straight than gay) about something which the parents themselves are unlikely to have much knowledge of, let alone consider that their straight children require such knowledge to prepare them for their adulthood?
I wouldn't. Which is why I was saying it should be part of a school sex-ed syllabus. Also, it's not just them being gay, it's about people they know or friends being gay and acceptance of being gay.Conservative or liberal really doesn’t make any difference in my experience, children are generally fairly handy at figuring out their shìt in their own time in their own way at their own pace.
Not sure I agree with you here. I mean, I accept they'll find out, but with what degree of accuracy? And respect?
If we go down the road of assuming kids will just pick it up as they go along, they the whole idea of sex-education becomes moot. And if it's anything like the crowd that I learnt with, homohobia will be ramapant.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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We had sex ed when we were about 12. Before that when we were 8 two of my friends got couple of porn movies that were circling among older brother's friends. They informed us about sperm and how woman drinks something that looks like champagne. And later she also has sex with a horse.
That was 30 years ago when porn wasn't a click away. I don't plan family seminars on the subject but 'they'll just pick the stuff up' attitude isn't the best either.0 -
Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »I wouldn't. Which is why I was saying it should be part of a school sex-ed syllabus. Also, it's not just them being gay, it's about people they know or friends being gay and acceptance of being gay.
Not sure I agree with you here. I mean, I accept they'll find out, but with what degree of accuracy? And respect?
If we go down the road of assuming kids will just pick it up as they go along, they the whole idea of sex-education becomes moot. And if it's anything like the crowd that I learnt with, homohobia will be ramapant.
I’d be interested in how you would plan to impart values such as respect and consent while having no respect for the parents values and trying to impart your values on their children, without their consent. I can’t even wrap my head around that one - teaching children about respect for other people and consent, with no regard to showing respect for their parents or obtaining their consent to have their children participate in sex education classes which are by their values, fundamentally inaccurate.
The whole idea of sex education in schools is moot because even as adults, people will gravitate towards that which just makes sense to them, and what just makes sense to them will be influenced by an infinite amount of... influences! Such as their peer groups, their level of exposure to social media and online information, etc. And it is their parents who will control their exposure to these experiences for the most part, and it is their parents who will be their greatest influence in their lives as children at that stage of their lives.
So, while I completely get where you’re coming from with the idea that if only children were educated in all aspects of sex and sexuality to encourage them to accept all aspects of sex and sexuality (which I take it will be accurate by your definition), then homophobia and all the issues that are associated with their parents being socially conservative homophobes (I get what you mean that homophobia is just one example of an issue for you) will be worked out of children over time, in spite of the greater influence of their parents in their lives.
Can you see where the fundamental stumbling block is to your proposals now? That’s exactly the fundamental stumbling block will be faced by advocates of sex education reform in Irish schools - they cannot impart their ideology to children in schools without those children’s parents consent.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I’d be interested in how you would plan to impart values such as respect and consent while having no respect for the parents values and trying to impart your values on their children, without their consent. I can’t even wrap my head around that one - teaching children about respect for other people and consent, with no regard to showing respect for their parents or obtaining their consent to have their children participate in sex education classes which are by their values, fundamentally inaccurate.
Umm - the entire education is a set of values imparted on children and parents are consenting to have their children educated by sending them to school. Or are you against all sex-education in the classroom?
What if I didn't consent to have my child subjected to history? Or Irish? Or Shakespeare?
Again - this sounds like your against the idea of ALL sex education in school, on the basis that they'll pick it up anyway.The whole idea of sex education in schools is moot because even as adults, people will gravitate towards that which just makes sense to them, and what just makes sense to them will be influenced by an infinite amount of... influences! Such as their peer groups, their level of exposure to social media and online information, etc. And it is their parents who will control their exposure to these experiences for the most part, and it is their parents who will be their greatest influence in their lives as children at that stage of their lives.
My experience was that homophobia came more from peers than parents, but the parents were either ignorant to it or ignorant to how to confront it.So, while I completely get where you’re coming from with the idea that if only children were educated in all aspects of sex and sexuality to encourage them to accept all aspects of sex and sexuality (which I take it will be accurate by your definition), then homophobia and all the issues that are associated with their parents being socially conservative homophobes (I get what you mean that homophobia is just one example of an issue for you) will be worked out of children over time, in spite of the greater influence of their parents in their lives.
Furthermore, my aspect was that knowledge of different relationships as well as sex, rather than just sex and sexuality.
There's no ideology.Can you see where the fundamental stumbling block is to your proposals now? That’s exactly the fundamental stumbling block will be faced by advocates of sex education reform in Irish schools - they cannot impart their ideology to children in schools without those children’s parents consent.
None of this is a secret. Parents know (or should know) that's on the syallabus before they consent to the education their kids. If they don't consent then homeschooling is the next option and it's perfectly legal.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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condoms are awful yokes0
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A nun gave a talk to us about it in my school many years ago0
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Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »Umm - the entire education is a set of values imparted on children and parents are consenting to have their children educated by sending them to school. Or are you against all sex-education in the classroom?
I’m not at all against sex education in the classroom. I’m fully supportive of sex education in the classroom which is supportive of what the children have already learned or will learn from their parents.This sounds like your against the idea of ALL sex education in school.
Not at all, it’s pointing out that regardless of the content of the sex education curriculum which children are exposed to in schools, they will still form their own ideas and values regarding relationships, sex and sexuality which will be influenced by that which makes sense to them already. If something doesn’t make sense to them, or they can’t relate to it, then just like adults - they will simply reject it.My experience was that homophobia came more from peers than parents, but the parents were either ignorant to it or ignorant to how to confront it.
Furthermore, my aspect was that knowledge of different relationships as well as sex, rather than just sex and sexuality.
Then the issue for you appears to be the challenge of educating parents, as opposed to hoping those parents will permit their children to be weaponised against those parents values which those parents hope to instil in their own children.There's no ideology.
None of this is a secret. Parents know (or should know) that's on the syallabus before they educate their kids. If they wish to homeschool, that's their option.
But that’s exactly what it is! You want to promote your ideology in Irish schools in the hope of influencing children whose parents ideology is not consistent with your ideology. Parents don’t need to consider homeschooling when the school they send their children to already builds upon what their children have learned from their parents according to those parents values which are influenced by an ideology which is inconsistent or incompatible with your ideology.
It’s also no secret that our Constitution recognises parents as the fundamental educators of their own children -
The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
...
The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.
Your ideology is an ideology, in spite of claims to the contrary, which are based upon the reality that other people’s values which they hope to impart to their own children, are incompatible with your own. You’re not alone at least in attempting to overcome the conundrum of imparting your own values about consent by attempting an end-run around parents -
Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill 20180 -
freshpopcorn wrote: »When I was in secondary school it was very basic in SPHE. Basically wear a condom to help prevent pregnancy/STD's/etc.
The only time condoms were ever mentioned by a teacher in my school was a ten-minute spittle-flecked rant about the evils of johnnies from the vice principal one morning at the start of English class, for no apparent reason whatsoever. We just rolled our eyes, watched him get redder and redder in the face, and said nothing.
As for bringing in outside bodies to do this, this needs to be regulated. There are all sorts of religious loons like Pure In Heart out there who take advantage of teachers' laziness/embarrassment to put their crazy ideas out there.
Believe it or not, our local CofI primary school will shortly be getting in the official catholic church crowd to do it :rolleyes:Deebles McBeebles wrote: »It was always a parents responsibility and should largely remain so.
Problem with that is that many/most parents will do nothing, and some will fill their kids heads with crazy stuff - which is their right, but the kids should be getting the facts from the school too. It's far too important to leave it only up to parents.
I mean, if their parents were flat earthers would we consider it wrong to teach the fact that the earth is round in school?SoundsRight wrote: »I'd stick to the basics, if parents want to teach kids about LGBT stuff they can do that in their own time.
Yeah it's not like there will be LGBT kids in every school who need to know that they're not crazy and not the only ones in the world who feel like that :rolleyes: with this sort of pig-ignorant attitude it's no wonder so many LGBT kids self-harmFingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »Your ideology is an ideology, in spite of claims to the contrary, which are based upon the reality that other people’s values which they hope to impart to their own children, are incompatible with your own. You’re not alone at least in attempting to overcome the conundrum of imparting your own values about consent by attempting an end-run around parents -
Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill 2018
There's nothing there about parents, did you read it?
That bill is about curtailing the ability of church-run schools to prevent their pupils from receiving objective sex education. All education should be as objective as possible, yet in this country it is somehow considered normal that almost all state funded schools push a religious agenda.
And... you don't need to bother with the "But they chose to send their kids to a catholic school" line. (a) heard it all so many times before (b) most parents don't have a realistic choice of school patronage, and it is crazy financially and extremely divisive socially to expect that every parent could actually pick and choose what form of school patronage they desire.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I’m not at all against sex education in the classroom. I’m fully supportive of sex education in the classroom which is supportive of what the children have already learned or will learn from their parents.
Not at all, it’s pointing out that regardless of the content of the sex education curriculum which children are exposed to in schools, they will still form their own ideas and values regarding relationships, sex and sexuality which will be influenced by that which makes sense to them already. If something doesn’t make sense to them, or they can’t relate to it, then just like adults - they will simply reject it.
Then the issue for you appears to be the challenge of educating parents, as opposed to hoping those parents will permit their children to be weaponised against those parents values which those parents hope to instil in their own children.
This makes no sense: we should teach them what they know already or presume they will find out anyway...?
The issue for me is educated children, simple as. The issue for YOU seems to be that they might disagree with their parents values. And yes, indeed they might. In which case you have to either accept this or tell me why you think independent thought and devleopment of personal opinions is a bad thing.But that’s exactly what it is! You want to promote your ideology in Irish schools in the hope of influencing children whose parents ideology is not consistent with your ideology. Parents don’t need to consider homeschooling when the school they send their children to already builds upon what their children have learned from their parents according to those parents values which are influenced by an ideology which is inconsistent or incompatible with your ideology.
It’s also no secret that our Constitution recognises parents as the fundamental educators of their own children -
The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
...
The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.
Your ideology is an ideology, in spite of claims to the contrary, which are based upon the reality that other people’s values which they hope to impart to their own children, are incompatible with your own. You’re not alone at least in attempting to overcome the conundrum of imparting your own values about consent by attempting an end-run around parents -
Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill 2018
You use the word ideology a lot without actually talking about one: can you enlighten me as to what specific idea you're talking about here?Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »There's nothing there about parents, did you read it?
That bill is about curtailing the ability of church-run schools to prevent their pupils from receiving objective sex education. All education should be as objective as possible, yet in this country it is somehow considered normal that almost all state funded schools push a religious agenda.
And... you don't need to bother with the "But they chose to send their kids to a catholic school" line. (a) heard it all so many times before (b) most parents don't have a realistic choice of school patronage, and it is crazy financially and extremely divisive socially to expect that every parent could actually pick and choose what form of school patronage they desire.
I read it of course, and it’s an attempt to do exactly as I suggested.
I didn’t bother with the “but they choose to send their children to a Catholic school” line either. Princess Consensual was way ahead of me on that score with their suggestion that for parents who didn’t want their children exposed to values which are inconsistent with their own, they had the option of homeschooling.0 -
Or withdrawing their child
So what exactly is your problem with it?Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »This makes no sense: we should teach them what they know already or presume they will find out anyway...?
Why doesn’t it make sense? It’s exactly the raison d’etre as it were for educational institutions - they support the education of those parents children according to their parents values.The issue for me is educated children, simple as. The issue for YOU seems to be that they might disagree with their parents values. And yes, indeed they might. In which case you have to either accept this or tell me why you think independent thought and devleopment of personal opinions is a bad thing.
The issue for you is that children aren’t educated according to your values. See your very first post in this thread -Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »I don't think I'd trust a lot parents to teach about homosexuality to be honest. Especially not the conservative ones.
Beyond that, what do you mean by the basics? Biology? They already know where the bits go.
I don’t have any issue with children disagreeing with their parents values, that is the very essence of independent thought and development of personal opinions. Even though he drives me barmy at times (if I said something was black he’d argue it was white), I’m fully supportive of my child forming their own opinions. That’s not what I send them to school for though. I’m also fully supportive of them expressing their own opinions and their opinions being given appropriate consideration when they are of an appropriate age where their opinions are worth serious consideration.
Until then, they will have to put up their parents conservative opinions.You use the word ideology a lot without actually talking about one: can you enlighten me as to what specific idea you're talking about here?
Your political and social ideology and values which are incompatible with conservative ideology and values.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Or withdrawing their child
So what exactly is your problem with it?
It’s misleading to refer to it as objective sex education for a start, when it’s clearly anything but objective. It’s based entirely upon it’s advocates ideological political and social beliefs.0 -
No its not. You've just described how conception happens and how disease can be spread. That's not sex education at all.Dravokivich wrote: »El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Why? Even if you just teach it as dry facts, LGBT stuff is part of the picture. Why avoid topics? Why not teach the facts and just avoid the judgmental side?
What has sexuality got to do with it? Sex education is just 2 things, how pregnancy happens, along with possible means to reduce it and what STDs are, along with possible means to prevent them.
All the stuff about LGBT+ can be handled either in Civics (from a rights perspective) or SPHE (from a social recognition/respect perspective).0 -
My values being educated children. I don't actually express any "values" in the post you quoted.
How are they supposed to form these opinions without education?I don’t have any issue with children disagreeing with their parents values, that is the very essence of independent thought and development of personal opinions. Even though he drives me barmy at times (if I said something was black he’d argue it was white), I’m fully supportive of my child forming their own opinions. That’s not what I send them to school for though. I’m also fully supportive of them expressing their own opinions and their opinions being given appropriate consideration when they are of an appropriate age where their opinions are worth serious consideration.
As long as the conservative parent invites and respects disagreement and debate from their kids, and accepts that they need to be educate in order to do so.Until then, they will have to put up their parents conservative opinions.Your political and social ideology and values which are incompatible with conservative ideology and values.
I said specific.
I haven't expressed any idea other than educated children, and yhis proves that YOU are one pushing an ideology and trying to deflect attention from it by making accusations of others.
Kids need to be educated. It's why they get sent to school in the first place. And they need to be educated about the world they live in and will grow up in and experience as adults. It's not something that you seem to think happens magically in the background or on their 18th birthday.
What exactly are you scared of?Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »It’s misleading to refer to it as objective sex education for a start, when it’s clearly anything but objective. It’s based entirely upon it’s advocates ideological political and social beliefs.
Sooo... semantics. That's your objection? Somehow I think there's a bit more to it than that...Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »It’s misleading to refer to it as objective sex education for a start, when it’s clearly anything but objective. It’s based entirely upon it’s advocates ideological political and social beliefs.
Again, what specifics are you talking about?
What do you mean by "objective"?
Who, specifically, are the "advocates"?
What specific political beliefs are you referreing to?
What specific social beliefs are you referring to?
And how, specifically do these objectives, advocates and ideas relate to the interests of the teenage child? Positively or negatively?Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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