The €3,000 per month luxury welfare apartments

purifol0 · 06-12-2019 1:14am

Car99 wrote: »

Average industrial wage €42k €6400 of which goes on income tax . It takes 5 people on €42k per year to pay rent only for just one of these €3k apartments. How can a county with such a small working population afford this.

Out of interest how many paye workers are in Ireland and out of those how many are working in the civil service?

Every 6th PAYE worker is a public or civil servant.

There are currently more than 300,000 of them.

Although they account for less a fifth off all PAYE workers they contribute 1/3rd of the total amount of PAYE tax...which points to the fact that they are grossly overpaid.

"How can a county with such a small working population afford this?" Answer: We can't they thats why Ireland borrowed so much money in the last ten years. Relatively little of it was to cover the bank bailout - most of it is spent on day to day expenditure so paying the public sectors ever increasing salaries, pensions, health, and welfare (includes HAP). In 2007 we had a 50Billion debt, today we have 200B and we pay back the interest on this debt at 14million per day. This much debt (and its interest payments) is so great that it limits governments ability to plan ahead or borrow because we are barely keeping our head above water in terms of how much we're taking in (despite the record high tax take) in and how much we spend.

Idbatterim · 06-12-2019 1:20am

A large amount of all this spending is being funded by volatile corporation tax receipts. Up to six billion of it. If **** hits the fan again, well ... we will see !

NSAman · 06-12-2019 1:24am

Geuze wrote: »

Total employment = 2,325,000

Civil service = 35,000 maybe 40,000

Multiply that by 10 please and you have the civil/public service numbers.

purifol0 · 06-12-2019 1:29am

NSAman wrote: »

Multiply that by 10 please and you have the civil/public service numbers.

If you read the post immediately after his you'd see all those numbers.

Car99 · 06-12-2019 1:37am

purifol0 wrote: »

Every 6th PAYE worker is a public or civil servant.

There are currently more than 300,000 of them.

Although they account for less a fifth off all PAYE workers they contribute 1/3rd of the total amount of PAYE tax...which points to the fact that they are grossly overpaid.

"How can a county with such a small working population afford this?" Answer: We can't they thats why Ireland borrowed so much money in the last ten years. Relatively little of it was to cover the bank bailout - most of it is spent on day to day expenditure so paying the public sectors ever increasing salaries, pensions, health, and welfare (includes HAP). In 2007 we had a 50Billion debt, today we have 200B and we pay back the interest on this debt at 14million per day. This much debt (and its interest payments) is so great that it limits governments ability to plan ahead or borrow because we are barely keeping our head above water in terms of how much we're taking in (despite the record high tax take) in and how much we spend.

Than you purifol0 you answered all my questions before I asked them. Basically Ireland is fcuked the next recession will bankrupt us.

purifol0 · 06-12-2019 2:14am

Car99 wrote: »

Than you purifol0 you answered all my questions before I asked them. Basically Ireland is fcuked the next recession will bankrupt us.

No problem, however I'd like to add that the last recession was a basically a huge crash followed by an extremely lowered tax take (job losses=less PAYE income tax) and a public sector that had just been given massive across the board raises in a huge FF vote buying exercise. We could have had real public sector reform by the new FG government but instead they cut services everywhere except unionised PS staff who are basically massive voting blocks. So to this day 90% of the Garda budget goes to Garda pay and the rest on yknow running the police service, squad cars etc.

Because their pay is on an upward only scale and they PS never leave or get fired, the tax payer has to cough up more and more every year for essentially the same level of service. This means not only can the govt not cut taxes and instead has to invent clever new ones (USC/Local Property tax/sugar tax/carbon tax/internet tax) or increase current ones (like when VAT went from 21 to 23%).

The economy may indeed recede next year but hopefully it wont crash. However this means cost of living will remain very high, especially the price of putting a roof over your own head.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra · 06-12-2019 6:22am

Car99 wrote: »

Than you purifol0 you answered all my questions before I asked them.

He gave you a mix of lies and propaganda to move the thread on to the anti-public service agenda, now that the "people in social housing are all unemployed scroungers" narrative was shown to be false over the last few pages. Distract, distract, divide and conquer. "Even when I thought it was the vulture funds, I knew it was the poor, the sick, the foreigners, the public service."

https://fora.ie/public-private-sector-wage-gap-ireland-3288957-Mar2017/

https://www.asti.ie/news/media-centre/key-facts/debunking-the-myths/

Geuze · 06-12-2019 10:21am

PS employment here is below other countries.

There was a PS pay premium, but after the two/three/four pay cuts, the PS pay premium has been eliminated.

Now, it's more complex than that.

Lower-paid PS are overpaid relative to the private sector.

Higher-paid PS are underpaid relative to the private sector.

Example: an engineer, accountant in the PS, say with 10-20 years experience, they will be underpaid in the PS, relatively.

However, a CO at the max 37k, may be overpaid relative to the private sector.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/

Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4.

marieholmfan · 06-12-2019 10:29am

It's worth noting that this comparison includes PAYE income only for the Private Sector and for civil servants doesn't value the pension properly.

This probably doesn't have too much impact on the assertion of over payment/ under payment as the best pensions are given to people at the top of the civil service (other than some areas of dysfunction like the Garda) and many people at the top of the Private sector get significant income outside PAYE.

Geuze wrote: »

PS employment here is below other countries.

There was a PS pay premium, but after the two/three/four pay cuts, the PS pay premium has been eliminated.

Now, it's more complex than that.

Lower-paid PS are overpaid relative to the private sector.

Higher-paid PS are underpaid relative to the private sector.

Example: an engineer, accountant in the PS, say with 10-20 years experience, they will be underpaid in the PS, relatively.

However, a CO at the max 37k, may be overpaid relative to the private sector.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/

Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4.

marieholmfan · 06-12-2019 10:29am

purifol0 wrote: »

The economy may indeed recede next year but hopefully it wont crash. However this means cost of living will remain very high, especially the price of putting a roof over your own head.

A contraction is the ideal opportunity for the state to build flats.

Geuze · 06-12-2019 10:34am

purifol0 wrote: »

Because their pay is on an upward only scale and they PS never leave or get fired, the tax payer has to cough up more and more every year for essentially the same level of service. This means not only can the govt not cut taxes and instead has to invent clever new ones (USC/Local Property tax/sugar tax/carbon tax/internet tax) or increase current ones (like when VAT went from 21 to 23%).

You'll be happy to hear that PS employment, especially in local government, fell in response to the fiscal crisis.

LG emp fell 30%.

Also note that tax revenues fell sharply. the overdependence on property-related taxes required new taxes that are less sensitive to the economic cycle.

marieholmfan · 06-12-2019 10:34am

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18080398.empty-flats-turned-social-housing/

Stark · 06-12-2019 11:21am

purifol0 wrote: »

Every 6th PAYE worker is a public or civil servant.

There are currently more than 300,000 of them.

Although they account for less a fifth off all PAYE workers they contribute 1/3rd of the total amount of PAYE tax...which points to the fact that they are grossly overpaid.

Jobs in the public/civil service are generally higher skilled jobs which accounts for a lot of the pay differential. I would have said they were overpaid during the last boom but I don't think that's the case anymore with recession era pay cuts and wage inflation in private sector skilled jobs in the last few years.

crossman47 · 06-12-2019 12:05pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

A contraction is the ideal opportunity for the state to build flats.

Indeed it is but these should be built in all areas. South Dublin Council planners insist in putting all their social housing in Tallaght and Clondalkin but nothing in Terenure or Tempelogue. That has to change for the benefit of everyone.

Sweet.Science · 06-12-2019 12:13pm

crossman47 wrote: »

Indeed it is but these should be built in all areas. South Dublin Council planners insist in putting all their social housing in Tallaght and Clondalkin but nothing in Terenure or Tempelogue. That has to change for the benefit of everyone.

How does it benefit people in Terenure and Templeogue?

blanch152 · 06-12-2019 12:17pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

It's worth noting that this comparison includes PAYE income only for the Private Sector and for civil servants doesn't value the pension properly.

This probably doesn't have too much impact on the assertion of over payment/ under payment as the best pensions are given to people at the top of the civil service (other than some areas of dysfunction like the Garda) and many people at the top of the Private sector get significant income outside PAYE.

Nope, the CSO now adjusts for the public service pension.

However, you are right on the other point, it excludes all the highly paid private sector individuals who operate as sole traders, partners and directors such as accountants, lawyers etc.

08-12-2019 1:25am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-chairman-defends-dundrum-lease-deal-with-foreign-cuckoo-fund-1.4108443

25 attended. Éirigí guy who arranged it talking about compulsory purchase and "forever homes".

FF chairperson of DLR council brazening it out and evading the question of how poor the deal is; "Fine Fáil Councillor and DLR Cathaoirleach Shay Brennan said the aim was to balance the urgent housing needs of local families with “value for money”." which translates as open wallet panic measures in the short term to get this monkey off our back.

Jinglejangle69 · 08-12-2019 3:03am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-chairman-defends-dundrum-lease-deal-with-foreign-cuckoo-fund-1.4108443

25 attended. Éirigí guy who arranged it talking about compulsory purchase and "forever homes".

FF chairperson of DLR council brazening it out and evading the question of how poor the deal is; "Fine Fáil Councillor and DLR Cathaoirleach Shay Brennan said the aim was to balance the urgent housing needs of local families with “value for money”." which translates as open wallet panic measures in the short term to get this monkey off our back.

Sounds like FF agreeing with FG housing policies.

But will canvass the election that FG housing policies aren’t working.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

oceanman · 08-12-2019 8:55am

25 people...jeeze that's going to scare the life out of them!:D

Caquas · 08-12-2019 12:22pm

DLR is controlled by an alliance of Fianna Fáil, the Green Party, the Social Democrats and independents. The Council wanted to buy this estate outright but the Department of Housing wouldn’t give the funding. So now the Council is committing itself for the next 25 years.

I haven’t heard any party criticising this deal which has scandalised ordinary people. I assume no politician can say “no” to any social housing project, no matter how daft.

08-12-2019 12:57pm

Caquas wrote: »

The Council wanted to buy this estate outright but the Department of Housing wouldn’t give the funding. So now the Council is committing itself for the next 25 years.

Do you have a source for this? It would help with my complaint to the Ombudsman that another arm of Government felt that it represented poor value for money but the local Council pursued the vanity project come what may.

If any Councillor voted for this then they should be forced to stand down from office without delay.

pm1977x · 08-12-2019 1:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-chairman-defends-dundrum-lease-deal-with-foreign-cuckoo-fund-1.4108443

25 attended. Éirigí guy who arranged it talking about compulsory purchase and "forever homes".

FF chairperson of DLR council brazening it out and evading the question of how poor the deal is; "Fine Fáil Councillor and DLR Cathaoirleach Shay Brennan said the aim was to balance the urgent housing needs of local families with “value for money”." which translates as open wallet panic measures in the short term to get this monkey off our back.

Jesus! Give people luxury apartments most people can't dream of affording 'forever' so they never seek to better themselves or pull themselves up out of (luxurious) poverty, what an idiot, but expect nothing less from populist nonsense merchants like Eirigi and PBP. 25 people is about as many votes as he deserves next time out.

end of the road · 08-12-2019 3:09pm

pm1977x wrote: »

Jesus! Give people luxury apartments most people can't dream of affording 'forever' so they never seek to better themselves or pull themselves up out of (luxurious) poverty, what an idiot, but expect nothing less from populist nonsense merchants like Eirigi and PBP. 25 people is about as many votes as he deserves next time out.

whether they are willing or even able to seek to better themselves or pull themselves out of poverty quite likely has nothing to do with the type of housing they get.

Idbatterim · 08-12-2019 4:36pm

do FF propose anything different to what FG are doing on housing?

NovemberWren · 08-12-2019 5:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Fcucking depraved. I Iive in this area. Used to rent an apartment nearby with a mate that are now over two thousand a month !!! They have enough bloody council land in the area. Is this April first ? Because I thought it was the 30/11/19!!! So on a three k apartment, their “ rent “ will be 150 a month ?! Would cover the bloody management fee alone , which of course they don’t pay!!

Will the council employ people to wipe the asses of people living there too ?

I take it the poor working fools working in Dundrum , will pay to commute on the **** transport here. While the council tenants can swan off to Dundrum town centre , buying **** with the free money they get. What a life of stress!!! Guaranteed income , luxury apartments...

very harsh, Idbatterim. these people may be being used as human cows, as human collateral, to give money to the Investors who have acquired this building.
The Council land should of course be used for christian civic housing; but, who (will)/can say what that is now. The (cute) buyers (short years or four of working) on the council estates; and, many, many, of the tenants on council estates, [some of whom are just feeble casanovas, cute coveys, and humble shy lovely daddys];- these feel entitled? to housing; And it is the rest, the marginalised, the un-cute, the non-gets, the un-connected; that are used in Private Investor Profit housing. (most of which these damned PIP (second) housing, is owned by FF, FG, Lab.), and their wealth is being given to them by the taxpayers, etc.

Caquas · 08-12-2019 5:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? It would help with my complaint to the Ombudsman that another arm of Government felt that it represented poor value for money but the local Council pursued the vanity project come what may.

If any Councillor voted for this then they should be forced to stand down from office without delay.

Glenveagh, the developers, previously rejected an offer from DLR to lease the entire development for 25 years. Davy stockbrokers tried to interest Irish investors. Ultimately, the Germans stepped in to make this deal happen.

http://https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/south-dublin-council-targets-luxury-scheme-for-social-housing-1.3926235

My understanding is that DLR would have bought the place if the Department of Housing had agreed to put up the capital but that was not allowed. Otherwise, why would DLR have jumped through these hoops? Or is the Council looking to provide social housing without the pleasures of dealing with social housing tenants?

dodzy · 09-12-2019 2:56am

NovemberWren wrote: »

very harsh, Idbatterim. these people may be being used as human cows, as human collateral, to give money to the Investors who have acquired this building.
The Council land should of course be used for christian civic housing; but, who (will)/can say what that is now. The (cute) buyers (short years or four of working) on the council estates; and, many, many, of the tenants on council estates, [some of whom are just feeble casanovas, cute coveys, and humble shy lovely daddys];- these feel entitled? to housing; And it is the rest, the marginalised, the un-cute, the non-gets, the un-connected; that are used in Private Investor Profit housing. (most of which these damned PIP (second) housing, is owned by FF, FG, Lab.), and their wealth is being given to them by the taxpayers, etc.

#confused

Idbatterim · 10-12-2019 3:19pm

that comment that it takes year and years and years to build housing is taking the piss. Yeah they dont appear over night, but how long have we been in this crisis? half decade at this point, there is a ton of land up towards the m50 and several in council ownership. the issue is nothing other than what inept morons they are!

We have fasttrack planning now, you can get permission for schemes over one hundred units in a very short period of time!

Where does the money for the dundrum block social housing come from , is it funded entirely from LPT from DLR council?

James Brown · 10-12-2019 3:26pm

pm1977x wrote: »

Jesus! Give people luxury apartments most people can't dream of affording 'forever' so they never seek to better themselves or pull themselves up out of (luxurious) poverty, what an idiot, but expect nothing less from populist nonsense merchants like Eirigi and PBP. 25 people is about as many votes as he deserves next time out.

Because Eirigi and PBP are behind this?

Think of it like this:

Apartment worth about 800 to 1,000 a month. The LA rents or leases it and uses it for social housing.

Or

Apartment worth about 2,000 to 3,000 a month. The LA rents or leases it and uses it for social housing.

Should those in need, who are offered turn them down?
Who is making on this? The new tenants are going to be paying the same rent to the LA regardless.

****************

There's big money to be made from vulture funds and developers buying up to rent/lease/sell to the state and LA's because of the housing crisis and it's not social housing tenants making the profits.

James Brown · 10-12-2019 3:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

do FF propose anything different to what FG are doing on housing?

I think they'll get building social and affordable. At least that cheek of the arse will do something positive for the low income tax payer.

The €3,000 per month luxury welfare apartments

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