Air travel jurisdiction

some1gr8 · 09-12-2018 8:32am #1

Hi.
I am wondering if somebody can help me woth following query.

I teavelled from dublin to Uae flight with non eu airline. An incident occured during the flight and my daughter suffered firsr degree burn during the flight.
Would anybody know which jurisdiction does it come under.
Does the non eu carrier are answerble to our legal system.

judeboy101 · 09-12-2018 8:34am

A first degree burn?

heretothere · 09-12-2018 8:47am

It sounds like a cup of coffee or something was accidentally spilt on her. I don't really know what you hope to achieve by taking legal action. Accidents happen

Under His Eye · 09-12-2018 1:57pm

If the person is injured they have a legal right to compensation.

You would have to take action in the country the airline is based. In this case the UAE.

sexmag · 09-12-2018 4:55pm

First degree burns are usually caused by hot liquids and are considered minor on the scale of seriousness.

Unless you can prove negligence on behalf of the airline there is no point and even then I doubt anything will come from it,flights have turbulance and thered always a risk of something like that happening and as this won't effect the child's life going forward and the evidence of the burn will disappear once it's healed.

hullaballoo · 09-12-2018 6:48pm

A lot of misinformation here so far.

This is an issue governed by the Montreal Convention and you can look to it to tell you almost everything you need to know about taking a case for injuries from an on-board accident, including jurisdiction.

Notably, the one thing you don't have to show is negligence.

Under His Eye · 09-12-2018 7:07pm

Article 33 — Jurisdiction
1. An action for damages must be brought, at the option
of the plaintiff, in the territory of one of the States Pa
rties,
either before the court of the domicile of the carrier or of
its principal place of business, or where it has a place of
business through which the contract has been made or
before the court at the place of destination.

Do they sell tickets in Ireland? It could be quite tough to establish that an Irish court would have jurisdiction over a UAE entity.

sexmag · 09-12-2018 9:19pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

Notably, the one thing you don't have to show is negligence.

Can you expand further on this?

Not being smart,genuine question

Under His Eye · 09-12-2018 9:27pm

You would have to show that the airline is at fault. Not easy.

Victor · 09-12-2018 9:33pm

sexmag wrote: »

Can you expand further on this?

Not being smart,genuine question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Convention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention

With certain statutory or treaty-based rights, the carrier (airline in this case) is considered to be in a much better position to assess risks than passengers and as a consequence, passengers are entitled to (almost automatic) compensation, even if the carrier wasn't negligent. Only a few, very restricted, exemptions occur, e.g. a strike. However, sometimes compensation is severely limited - if you lose your €20,000 Rolex in checked-in baggage, your compensation might only be a few euros - it's treated as 'luggage', not a Rolex.

To take more mundane examples, imagine someone crashes their car into another car, killing someone. The deceased's life assurance will normally pay out, simply because the person is dead - only in profoundly exceptional circumstances would they not pay out. The car driver's insurance won't pay out until it is established that there was negligence and corresponding liability.

hullaballoo · 09-12-2018 9:56pm

sexmag wrote: »

Can you expand further on this?

Not being smart,genuine question

Under His Eye wrote: »

You would have to show that the airline is at fault. Not easy.

As Victor has said, it's the exact opposite to what Under His Eye starts above (sorry, UHE!) It's close enough to strict liability once an accident occurs between the two points given under the Convention.

However, I disagree somewhat with Victor in terms of the levels of compensation. Yes, they are more restricted than under, say, damages for negligence but you get compensated for losses flowing consequently from the accident. Luggage is dealt with separately under the Convention.

Also as to jurisdiction, the Convention allows wide latitude and it is sufficient if the ticket was sold in Ireland to sue in Ireland. They might fight with you about it but it's difficult for them to argue the consumer contract was concluded other than in Ireland if that's where the consumer buying the ticket was. Many airlines also have offices here and that is helpful.

Victor · 09-12-2018 10:43pm

Oh, as the flight is leaving from an EU airport, do EU compensation rights also arise?

ohnonotgmail · 09-12-2018 11:38pm

Victor wrote: »

Oh, as the flight is leaving from an EU airport, do EU compensation rights also arise?

yes

some1gr8 · 10-12-2018 6:55am

http://www.bandonsolicitors.com/rights-injured-flying/
I found some info here

laotg · 10-12-2018 7:40am

Who spilled the water? A fellow passenger member or staff? Did you make an official report at the time and did you go to a doctor?

some1gr8 · 10-12-2018 10:21am

When meal was served an hour
before landing, my wife was sitting in the middle row with 1 YO baby in her lap and my 6 yo
daughter beside her, A tea was served with out any lid. As soon as it was placed on tray in front of
her, my 6 yo daughter mistaken it as milk and picked it up while my wife busy with airhostess serving her milk and
suger. Tea fell her right upper leg. Which caused her great deal of pain and suffering to her. She
stood up immdiately due to pain and lowered her trouser while my wife tried to deal with her. The air hostess saw
everything but did not help or report it to anybody else in the crew.
My wife left our one YO daughter with me while she took her to toilet to deal with it. I pressed
assisstance button but nobody came to help until i asked a passing by crew for burn cream. From this time, the crew came to help us (after 10 mins since the incident occured) and they dealt with it.
I also informed them about our connecting flight which was leaving in 2.5 hours after arrival.
An ambulance took us to clinic at Doha airport, after medical treatment, we were assisted to
security baggage check. But after security we were left on our own to find gate for next flight in.
On our next flight, the airline staff was more interested in seeing the medical report to see if she is cleaed to fly rather than helping us as the were already informed.

sexmag · 10-12-2018 4:09pm

So your daughter picked up the tea and dropped it on herself is what your saying?
Not sure how a lid would have prevented her dropping it or would have helped as they are designed to stop spilling,not to stoped outpour when being dropped

This would be similar if I stood up and banged my head off the overhead cabin,Its hardly the airlines fault that I hurt myself.

I'm sorry your daughter got burned, I hope she's ok but I doubt if there is a case here

hullaballoo · 10-12-2018 4:50pm

sexmag wrote: »

So your daughter picked up the tea and dropped it on herself is what your saying?
Not sure how a lid would have prevented her dropping it or would have helped as they are designed to stop spilling,not to stoped outpour when being dropped

This would be similar if I stood up and banged my head off the overhead cabin,Its hardly the airlines fault that I hurt myself.

I'm sorry your daughter got burned, I hope she's ok but I doubt if there is a case here

Again, this is entirely incorrect.

It is also very very close to the line in terms of the rule against legal advice. But I'll leave that aside for now as the thread is almost getting derailed by inaccurate supposition and it is more important to deal with that at this point.

Rule 1 of service is you don't leave burning hot items in front of children because they will burn themselves. Hot plates, drinks, soups, teapots etc. All left out of reach of children by anyone working in the service industry because it's well-known that children will burn themselves otherwise.

They are only children and do not possess the level of reasoning required to inhibit their compulsion to reach for what's in front of them.

But that argument is only really applicable where dealing with a case in negligence, which this isn't. As above, it's under the terms of the Convention and negligence is not required to be shown.

OP, for want of a better option at this stage, if I were you I'd park the idea that a bunch of strangers on the internet are going to be able to tell you how to proceed here and engage the services of a legal professional who can give you fulsome advice in relation to the various aspects of this case, including whether the level of damages pertaining to your daughter's injuries would warrant proceedings against the airline.

sexmag · 10-12-2018 9:37pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

.
Rule 1 of service is you don't leave burning hot items in front of children because they will burn themselves. Hot plates, drinks, soups, teapots etc. All left out of reach of children by anyone working in the service industry because it's well-known that children will burn themselves otherwise.

They are only children and do not possess the level of reasoning required to inhibit their compulsion to reach for what's in front of them.

But that argument is only really applicable where dealing with a case in negligence, which this isn't.

So as with my point it's irrelevant to say then but you've peaked my interest, is there any legislation or case to refer to where this can be shown that servers can't leave hot drinks in front of children? At what age does the child become exempt from this rule? Or this just an unwritten rule?

hullaballoo wrote: »

OP, for want of a better option at this stage, if I were you I'd park the idea that a bunch of strangers on the internet are going to be able to tell you how to proceed here and engage the services of a legal professional who can give you fulsome advice in relation to the various aspects of this case, including whether the level of damages pertaining to your daughter's injuries would warrant proceedings against the airline.

Best advice of course and I wasnt saying that there is or isn't a case for op just my own doubt based on what was described

0lddog · 10-12-2018 10:06pm

Does the country of registration of the aircraft have any bearing on this ?

hullaballoo · 11-12-2018 12:19am

sexmag wrote: »

So as with my point it's irrelevant to say then but you've peaked my interest, is there any legislation or case to refer to where this can be shown that servers can't leave hot drinks in front of children? At what age does the child become exempt from this rule? Or this just an unwritten rule?

In relation to the placing of hot items in front of children, that is something that is so blindingly obviously negligent that we refer to it as something to which the court is entitled to take judicial notice. This is where something is so well-known that the court couldn't but understand and accept it.

In relation to the rule of law that states children are especially treated when it comes to negligence, see McNamara v ESB where the supreme court acknowledged that children will be children and fail to fully appreciate dangers, which makes it necessary for adults, who are fully appraised of the fact that children will be children, responsible when the adults do things that endanger the children.

heretothere · 12-12-2018 12:31am

They never put lids onto hot drinks on airlines, and if she dropped it on herself the lid would have popped off anyway. I'm sorry she got hurt but I'm sure she is fine by now. Again I am not from a legal background so I don't know what why the law goes. But you're blaming the airline for serving her the tea, are you not her parent? Therefore her responsible adult? Did you willingly let her order the tea?

At the end of the day it was a pure accident and I don't blame you either but honestly if it is the airlines fault, it's also your fault for letting her order the drink and not supervising her 'correctly' whilst she drank it. It wasn't the air host that dropped the tea, it was your daughter. If you were in a hardware store, picked up a sledge hammed and dropped it on your foot would that be the stores shop for letting you pick up the hammer? Again sorry she was in pain but I'm sure she is fine now.

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 12-12-2018 12:37am

heretothere wrote: »

They never put lids onto hot drinks on airlines, and if she dropped it on herself the lid would have popped off anyway.

Aer Lingus do

Under His Eye · 12-12-2018 1:35am

heretothere wrote: »

They never put lids onto hot drinks on airlines, and if she dropped it on herself the lid would have popped off anyway. I'm sorry she got hurt but I'm sure she is fine by now. Again I am not from a legal background so I don't know what why the law goes. But you're blaming the airline for serving her the tea, are you not her parent? Therefore her responsible adult? Did you willingly let her order the tea?

At the end of the day it was a pure accident and I don't blame you either but honestly if it is the airlines fault, it's also your fault for letting her order the drink and not supervising her 'correctly' whilst she drank it. It wasn't the air host that dropped the tea, it was your daughter. If you were in a hardware store, picked up a sledge hammed and dropped it on your foot would that be the stores shop for letting you pick up the hammer? Again sorry she was in pain but I'm sure she is fine now.

Under the Montreal convention the airline is liable regardless.

ohnonotgmail · 12-12-2018 10:10am

heretothere wrote: »

They never put lids onto hot drinks on airlines, and if she dropped it on herself the lid would have popped off anyway. I'm sorry she got hurt but I'm sure she is fine by now. Again I am not from a legal background so I don't know what why the law goes. But you're blaming the airline for serving her the tea, are you not her parent? Therefore her responsible adult? Did you willingly let her order the tea?

At the end of the day it was a pure accident and I don't blame you either but honestly if it is the airlines fault, it's also your fault for letting her order the drink and not supervising her 'correctly' whilst she drank it. It wasn't the air host that dropped the tea, it was your daughter. If you were in a hardware store, picked up a sledge hammed and dropped it on your foot would that be the stores shop for letting you pick up the hammer? Again sorry she was in pain but I'm sure she is fine now.

The child did not order the tea.

Air travel jurisdiction

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