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Panel van to 9 PAX Camper

  • 04-09-2018 12:04pm
    #1
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭


    Hey folks, I posted here recently for advice on what would be best to convert to a camper from and a panel van seemed to make the most sense. I've now bought the van, a 2013 Mercedes Sprinter XLWB Super High Roof. It's 7.3m long and is currently registered as a commercial with 3 seats.

    I want to make it a 9 seater camper van. I've heard that I may need a walkway between the front and back, meaning I'd have to replace the 2 passenger seats in the front, with only 1 to allow room for a walkway, unless it's possible to get a more compact 2 seat bench for the front, but that depends on how much space is required for the walkway. Ideally, I'd rather there be no need for the walkway as I'd prefer 3 people in the front and 6 in the back as opposed to 7 in the back and 2 up front.

    I'd like to put in a scissor gate/security grille behind the driver seat that can expand to the other side if needed and also put another one around half way through the cargo area.

    This is the plan I want to start with:
    https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/40946721_2371551312884997_2072456642422636544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=39019d0b9f92cad17f2ac8f407275f29&oe=5C30E3E5

    I'll then do more as my budget allows for it, but I think getting it registered as a 9 seat camper is probably priority for now.

    Would anyone know anyone who may be able to design the custom benches I describe in the above picture? They would be similar to the ones here in terms of how they fold up, but then I'd want them to fold down to a bed too and also be for 3 people, not just 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

    Also, anywhere to supply the security gate? It would be something like this: door_gate.gif
    There's no need for it to be so strong as it's just to use mainly as a separator and will have minimal force/strain on it.


    Other than that, what else would I need? Is it just a sink/gas hob and a removable table and that's it? Is there a requirement that I'd need windows installed in the back too?

    Another thing, I may be able to get my hands on 6 free passenger seats. I was thinking maybe I could get these for now and bolt them in to at least get it registered as a camper quicker as my budget may not allow for the custom benches just yet. So would just be a case of swapping out the 6 seats for the 2 benches once I have them, or I'd need to go through another inspection etc?


    Any feedback would be great!


«1

Comments

  • #2
    autumnalcore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 838 ✭✭✭autumnalcore


    First bit of feedback dont start a new thread.
    Second what you are describing is not a camper and wont be seen as such by either revenue or insurance companies.


  • #3
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks for the feedback. Can I ask why they wouldn't see it as a camper? I mean the end goal is to convert it fully with toilet, sky lights, insulation, solar panels etc, but that's gonna need investment over a period of time.

    I thought there were only a few basics needed to class it as a camper? What do you think is the problem with this?


  • #4
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,478 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    The problem I would see is that it would be very likely that the van would be more suitable for use for things other than what a camper is designed for.

    I don’t know how insurance works, but myself and a friend converted a low roof Transit last year and we had to get a fella from the motor caravan club or somewhere to do an inspection, he nearly failed us because we didn’t have blinds. Thinking being, if we didn’t have blinds in it we clearly weren’t intending to use is as a camper. We got some fitted last minute and all was well in the end.

    Not sure if a high roof camper would need the club to sign off on it to get insurance, but that was the case for us.


  • #5
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks a lot! Anything I'll need to get it classed as a camper, I'll put as priority in terms of budgeting. Are tinted windows without blinds ok, or are windows even necessary at all I wonder? I'd like windows anyway, but just curious in terms of budgeting for now.

    Are this the crowd you inspected it do you remember?:
    http://motorcaravanclub.com/

    Did you arrange the inspection direct with them or through an insurer?


  • #6
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,478 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    That’s the ones. Now it may be different with a high roof. You may have your choice of insurers.


    There’s 9 seats, how many does it sleep?


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  • #7
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    I think you're really reaching if you think you'll successfully fit 9 traveling seats and any worthwhile habitation in that size van. You'll end up with a minibus with an on board toilet and come time to re-register it, it'll be obvious to the assessor that it's just a tax dodge.


  • #8
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

    Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

    with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.


  • #9
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    cormie wrote: »
    A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

    Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

    with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.

    A tax dodge seeking classification as a 'motorcaravan' when it's intended function is just a passenger vehicle.

    I have a 6 birth coach built with the benefit of an overcab bed and a wide body on the habitation area. Its pretty much the same length as the van you're planning on converting. I have a very good handle on the size and space. What you're proposing will not have plenty of room for anything.


  • #10
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,478 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    cormie wrote: »
    A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

    Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

    with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.

    This sort of thing
    cormie wrote: »
    Hi there,
    I'm looking to get as big a van as possible, under 3m high but at least 4m load length (back of driver seat to rear doors), that will serve the following purposes:

    To use as a back up day van for transporting furniture etc
    To use for storage
    To use as a 9 seater (Driver + 2 up front and 6 fold down seats in the back) for road trips etc
    To use as a camper (seats will also double as a fold out bed)

    I'd like to go for either:

    Ford Transit Jumbo/ELWB
    VW Crafter LWB/High Roof or Maxi/Super High Roof
    Mercedes Sprinter LWB/High Roof or Maxi/Super High Roof

    I want it to be 3.5t GVW Max and driveable on a B license and looking for 4 wheel max, so no twin rear axle.

    As far as I'm aware, if a van is to be used to carry passengers in the back, it needs to have windows and seats with belts. Since the likelihood of finding exactly what I want for sale second hand is I imagine zero, I have the following options:

    1) Buy a minibus, and take out all seats and fit custom seats - Problem is that most minibuses will be over 3.5GVW and will probably have a higher selling price
    2) Buy a crew cab and take out bulk head behind passenger seats and re-line walls and floor to be uniform throughout.
    3) Buy a regular panel van and add windows (not sure how big they need to be?), remove bulk head if present behind driver seat.


    Which option will have the higher overall cost depends on what kind of van I can buy initially, but I'd like to know the cost estimate to add custom seats and to add windows if necessary and any other necessities I may not be thinking of.

    Due to popularity of these vans in the UK compared to Ireland, I will most likely have to buy in the UK and import so will need to take import costs into consideration and also have any customisation done to an approved and accepted standard.

    Please see the attached image for more details. Any feedback and cost estimates would be brilliant.


  • #11
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    It's intended function will be a camper, but I'd like to be able to bring as many people as my license allows with a well designed seating and bed plan. I'll also have an additional 2,000kg of train weight allowance to later get a trailer for additional space. I wouldn't be considering so many seats if I felt it wouldn't be practical. For one person it'll definitely be plenty of space. I've as similar van to what you're describing already alias, a wider body box van with the luton over driver seats too, which I've stayed in before and felt there was plenty of room, especially when it was just me. Once I can store a bike or two and a few bags and boxes of fruit, then that's really all I'll need.


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  • #12
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    I think you need to put a leash on your enthusiasm, at least in the short term.:)

    What you are proposing is not a standard run of the mill, van to camper conversion
    for a couple of seats. Where yours differs is not necessarily the ability to seat 9 people,
    but the ability to safely transport them along the motorway.

    Therein I think is going to be your major stumbling block. Unless of course you have the specs
    that vehicle conversion companies have to keep your conversion on track. getting your hands on 6
    free passenger seats, aint gonna cut it. You have to know the bolt spec, mounting plates, and
    positions where to place these. And then of course you will run into the same issue with the
    seatbelts and their fixing methods.

    And then you have to prove that a SQI carried out this work, and get it signed off.

    I dont want to knock your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't like to see you get a major financial
    hit, if you can't cover all the bases.

    2 cents.


  • #13
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Hey, thanks a lot for the warnings. So I guess getting the 6 free seats and putting them in while I get the others made up and designed would be a waste of money given the extras needed to get any seats approved?

    So I'm probably better off approaching a company who does conversions and could also design and approve the benches I'm looking at? If such a company exist? :o


  • #14
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Have a chat with a conversion company to see whats permissable regarding the
    seating and belts before you launch into anything. They might be willing to spec it for you.


  • #15
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Yeah I'll definitely do that :) If anyone knows any who may be able to build the seats too, I'd appreciate any recommendations :)


  • #16
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,721 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    You don't necessarily need a walkway from front to back, you just need to have the area clear ie no bulkhead. You can leave the front seats as they are

    You will almost certainly need to put in at least 1 window in the back

    Revenue has relatively clear guidelines:
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/conversions/specific-vehicles.aspx


  • #17
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    You could use these type of bench seat frames the are m1 rated and could double as storage and beds.
    Put two facing each other with a table on a socket and pole that becomes part of the bed too. How ever they just be forward or read facing you can't have them side facing

    lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/2009/06/28/motor-homes-caravans/


  • #18
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks again for the info everyone!

    That would be brilliant if there's no need to have a walkway between the driver area and all I need to do is remove the bulkhead, which I was going to do anyway. The factory seats in the sprinter are awesome and have great storage etc in them too, plus this means that money can go elsewhere now.

    It's a little ambiguous how it describes the windows in that revenue link.. "It is expected that the living accommodation space in the rear compartment would have side windows. ", it doesn't entirely sound like it's a requirement, more just an expectation? :pac: I definitely want windows, but again, just trying to budget.

    Also, with regards the storage, I wonder is the overhead shelf once the bulkhead is removed going to be enough to tick this box?

    These are photos I found of the area I'm talking about:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_bevan/33242800692/in/photostream/lightbox/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_bevan/32555608514/in/photostream/lightbox/

    It doesn't look like it, but you can actually fit a fair bit in that shelf.

    spacehopper, thanks for the link, are you referring to these seats? http://lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/caravan-seatbelt.jpg

    I can't see anything else really on that link? These would really be as compact as I'd like.

    I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:
    spacesaver_sidefold.jpg

    I'm actually surprised I haven't yet found something out there already for what I'd like, I think it's a great idea :pac:


  • #19
    Alkers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Alkers


    The walkway isn't a revenue requirement but it is a requirement of at least one of the insurance companies.

    The revenue definitions are pretty poor in fairness and they've been successfully challenged in court for misinterpreting their own guidelines. There's a thread somewhere in this forum with more details.

    That being said, a van that just meets the revenue definitions for a campervan will be much harder to insure as a campervan than it will be to tax. You might be able to get around this with a normal commercial policy though? In the grand scheme of your project, what will be the difference to you if it's registered and insured as a van rather than a camper - particularly until you get it progressed to a high standard?


  • #20
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks for that. Ah, so getting insurance as a camper without the walkway might prove difficult.. Hmmm.. To be honest, I haven't even looked into the cost of camper tax or insurance. I recall the tax is cheap, but commercial is affordable enough on this van @ €333 per year anyway, if camper is cheaper than that, then brilliant.

    Insurance wise, I haven't a clue what the difference in price will be, so maybe it won't make too much difference, just as long as it can still be used with the passenger seats and to sleep in and live out of and there's no issues doing this on a commercial policy?


  • #21
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    cormie wrote: »
    spacehopper, thanks for the link, are you referring to these seats? http://lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/caravan-seatbelt.jpg

    I can't see anything else really on that link? These would really be as compact as I'd like.

    I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:
    Yes those here's more https://www.reimo.com/en/D-camping_shop/DX-camper_seats_bench_seats_seat_belts_seat_bases/

    Keep an eye on adverts and done deal you sometimes see trippel bench seats
    You might have to get one made. Can you rotate the front double seat or both seats.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTwAsW-MLM

    If you use bench seat frames you get lots of storage under them.

    Why do you need a 9 seater, how many kids do you have, 7 ?


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  • #22
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    It's moreso just to go away on trips with friends and that. A load of us went to the UK on a camping festival recently and most had to get flights. It would have been much better to have all just been able to hop into the one van and throw in all the gear and extra tents and that there, same even with going anywhere in Ireland, even moreso as you don't have the ferry cost then either :P

    Actually, I saw on that camper club website, they have a deal with Stena. Anyone have any idea how much a return from Dublin - Holyhead is? It would be around €400 with just a driver with this size van usually.

    Are you suggesting get the back rest and seat cushion and maybe even seat belts from an existing triple bench and then just have the frame made up? The backrest and cushions would need to be suitable to be able to fold to 0 and 180 degrees so it might be tricky to find.


  • #23
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    That van , nor any in that scale is suitable to fit 9 seats and sleep the same amount of people. You simply will not have the bed space. Max comfortable would be 4 or 5 berth. And that's with some creative boat style up and over design. You'd squeeze a sixth if you took a lower table space as make up bed area but that's it


    Your dream is far fetched from reality what you'd want is someone else to buy a second van and park the idea if one van for all.

    Also there is a huge amount of work that will involve skills, tools, time and money to get it up to an acceptable standard .


    Enthusiasm is great but has to be tempered with reality. I'm toying with the idea of a sprinter conversion once I finish my house renovations , but I have all of the required tools and experience in construction .


    I'd suggest you look are the hundreds of sprinter conversion on YouTube to get to the reality of what little space there is in an lwb sprinter. You can just lamp people into it. And as for the scissors door , I've no idea where that came from it's unnecessary to put any door between the cab and rear compartment. Just remove the bulkhead and centre seat. You'll want access between the two it will get old fast getting out of the rear and into the one of the cab doors to get things or move things


  • #24
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks for the reply and your input.

    I was never intending to sleep 9, or anywhere near 9 in this, 4 or 5 is exactly the number I said earlier on in the thread with regards sleeping in the van and then the rest would go in tents. It's a means to get everyone to the one location with tents, bikes and whatever other equipment :)

    This is also a XLWB/Super High roof sprinter, 7.3m total (4.7m from bulkhead to rear door) and about 2.2m from floor to roof. Also down the line I can maybe look at getting a trailer caravan or something similar too as the train weight is 5.5t, but until then, I don't think my idea is tooo far fetched :)

    Would be happy to keep the 3 seats up front if possible, there's enough space between the driver and passenger seats to squeeze by anyway, it's just not a walkway as the handbrake stick is there, you can see it in this video from 2:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbP6aHEJG4

    I've also seen a swivel base attachment for the 2 passenger seats that allows you to keep the existing base unit, so you could pass even easier when they are spun half way :P

    These are all minor things anyway and I'm happy to put up with them while working within my budget for the rest.

    Main thing at the moment is getting the 6 rear passenger seats sorted I guess and then a window too..


    EDIT: You can see the double swivel seat here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9boeejAy0

    It shows how much you can push it back towards the door when it's half way spun around so hopping between the rear and cab would be easy, but too expensive to sort out at the moment and not a priority :)


  • #25
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    It's very unusual to make a camper carry so many people. You're making it much harder to build pushing up the cost and compromising the end result. You also could easily find it very difficult to insure. I'd scale it back if I were you. The put in bunk beds across the back, a toilet cubical, kitchen and a seating are for 4. Keep the double seat up front but make it spin.

    Space the seating are out so that it can become a 6 foot bed. If you but two bench seats facing each other with socket for a table leg in the floor between them you then take out table top and it drops down to make a base for a bend you fill in the gaps with the cushions. If you use the benches I likes they'll be expensive but you can use them in the next van too.


  • #26
    MojoMaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    Let's be honest, you're after a booze bus to carry all your mates and using the van for camping is no consideration whatsover, other than availing of the cheap tax rate and relatively cheap camper insurance rate.

    If you said this up front and asked for genuine opinions how you could achieve this with a variety of donor vehicles you would probably get more sympathy and help, but clinging to the campervan fallacy is just annoying - nobody is fooled.


  • #27
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Are you 100% sure your license allows for this XLWB/Super High roof sprinter,

    I dont know if you have the Tonage on your license, id check that out seriously.


  • #28
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,488 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I've seen professionally done T2's with 7 seats - 3 front, 3 bench and a "buddy" seat. It's arguably less of a compromise of the traditional layout in a smaller van though.


  • #29
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks again for the replies :)

    There's a lot of doubt amongst you all here. If I came here posting that I want to put a table and 2 benches in the back, that can fold down to a bed together like the ones spacehopper has pictured, there'd be none of the kerfuffle. Now just because I want what would do the exact same or very similar function, while also being able to fold nicely against the wall when not in use, and also be able to make the most of the 9 person allowance you can have on a B licence, there's all sorts of accusations as to the intended use and what not.

    These seats are going to be a lot more compact and take up way less room than regular camper bench seats. I don't need them to be lavish or super cosy. I'm actually surprised there's nothing on the market like what I want already from what I can see. I mean if you're going to have benches and a table in the back, why not have them certified to carry passengers too, in the case there are a load of you going off camping and some will kip in a tent, or a trailer caravan towed by the van? There's all sorts of legitimate possibilities and advantages of such seats.

    MojoMaker, hate to disappoint you, but I don't drink. I've been drunk maybe 7 or 8 times in my 16 years of adult life, also, I had to go check the tax rate for a camper after your post, do you really thin I'd go to all this effort and cost for seats like this to save €231 a year in tax :confused: The van is already cheap to tax at €333 per year! I don't even know how much insurance will be, but regardless, you're suspicions aren't valid :)

    It's a big van, mine is the one on top (not the one with the big red arrow) here:
    19fd9b73a3eee8c2c41985185206403e.jpg

    I think it's one of the biggest mass produced vans you can drive on a B license. It's big, but still under 3m so automated tolls in Europe that charge crazy money when you are over 3m won't be a problem too. I've put a lot of thought into this :pac: Listermint, yup, I've attached a photo of the VIN plate of the van. Sections are explained here: http://www.mercedesmlclub.com/vin_plate.html so 3.5t GVW and 5.5t train weight, which means I can have a combined weight of 5.5t when towing, but I would need a BE license for that (I think), which I don't have at the moment, so that would be way down the line.


    So if anyone would have any recommendations for anywhere that could help design, build and approve these seats, please share :)


  • #30
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,721 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    You will have to get it weighed again after the conversion also so that might push you over the 3.5t once you have the storage, flooring kitchen etc in there.

    Your own intentions are sound, but its the unsurers and revenue who are the gatekeepers on this and if they have any suspicions at all the are likely to just say tough luck. I would keep in contact with them, they will be fairly open with you about what can and cant be done. Despite the issues that are being raised here I would love to see the project coming together


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  • #31
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    The only people that will know what will or wont pass, and what can and cant be done
    are the conversion companies that do this for a living, they are the experts, that may or may not
    pass on the info you want, so they are worth a chat.

    It would be a devastating outcome if you went to the expense, and failed on a red tape issue.


  • #32
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    It's a big van and it will make a great camper but if you put in 9 seats i don't think you will get insurance. Build it as a7 seater make provision to add more seats and if you find you need them add two more fold down seats and replace it


  • #33
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks again for the replies :)

    There's a lot of doubt amongst you all here. If I came here posting that I want to put a table and 2 benches in the back, that can fold down to a bed together like the ones spacehopper has pictured, there'd be none of the kerfuffle. Now just because I want what would do the exact same or very similar function, while also being able to fold nicely against the wall when not in use, and also be able to make the most of the 9 person allowance you can have on a B licence, there's all sorts of accusations as to the intended use and what not.

    These seats are going to be a lot more compact and take up way less room than regular camper bench seats. I don't need them to be lavish or super cosy. I'm actually surprised there's nothing on the market like what I want already from what I can see. I mean if you're going to have benches and a table in the back, why not have them certified to carry passengers too, in the case there are a load of you going off camping and some will kip in a tent, or a trailer caravan towed by the van? There's all sorts of legitimate possibilities and advantages of such seats.

    MojoMaker, hate to disappoint you, but I don't drink. I've been drunk maybe 7 or 8 times in my 16 years of adult life, also, I had to go check the tax rate for a camper after your post, do you really thin I'd go to all this effort and cost for seats like this to save €231 a year in tax :confused: The van is already cheap to tax at €333 per year! I don't even know how much insurance will be, but regardless, you're suspicions aren't valid :)

    It's a big van, mine is the one on top (not the one with the big red arrow) here:
    19fd9b73a3eee8c2c41985185206403e.jpg

    I think it's one of the biggest mass produced vans you can drive on a B license. It's big, but still under 3m so automated tolls in Europe that charge crazy money when you are over 3m won't be a problem too. I've put a lot of thought into this :pac: Listermint, yup, I've attached a photo of the VIN plate of the van. Sections are explained here: http://www.mercedesmlclub.com/vin_plate.html so 3.5t GVW and 5.5t train weight, which means I can have a combined weight of 5.5t when towing, but I would need a BE license for that (I think), which I don't have at the moment, so that would be way down the line.


    So if anyone would have any recommendations for anywhere that could help design, build and approve these seats, please share :)

    If it's got a 5.5t MAN then you can't drive it on a B.
    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply and your input.

    I was never intending to sleep 9, or anywhere near 9 in this, 4 or 5 is exactly the number I said earlier on in the thread with regards sleeping in the van and then the rest would go in tents. It's a means to get everyone to the one location with tents, bikes and whatever other equipment :)

    This is also a XLWB/Super High roof sprinter, 7.3m total (4.7m from bulkhead to rear door) and about 2.2m from floor to roof. Also down the line I can maybe look at getting a trailer caravan or something similar too as the train weight is 5.5t, but until then, I don't think my idea is tooo far fetched :)

    Would be happy to keep the 3 seats up front if possible, there's enough space between the driver and passenger seats to squeeze by anyway, it's just not a walkway as the handbrake stick is there, you can see it in this video from 2:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbP6aHEJG4

    I've also seen a swivel base attachment for the 2 passenger seats that allows you to keep the existing base unit, so you could pass even easier when they are spun half way :P

    These are all minor things anyway and I'm happy to put up with them while working within my budget for the rest.

    Main thing at the moment is getting the 6 rear passenger seats sorted I guess and then a window too..


    EDIT: You can see the double swivel seat here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9boeejAy0

    It shows how much you can push it back towards the door when it's half way spun around so hopping between the rear and cab would be easy, but too expensive to sort out at the moment and not a priority :)


  • #34
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks again for the replies!

    Definitely need to be careful on the weight StupidLikeAFox. Can hopefully get the seats made in something that's strong enough to pass any tests, light enough to not add much weight and then affordable too. Any suggestions welcome on that too :)

    I won't be adding too much plush to it and will try get things as compact as possible. Will just go with the essentials first and see how I'm fixed weight wise, taking into considering 9 people will weigh maybe about 700kg too.

    Kadman, definitely going to speak to some converters before going ahead with anything! I'm hoping to find one who not only knows about the requirements, but can build the benches to satisfy them too. Not sure if there'd be any in Ireland who can do this though :confused:

    SpaceHopper, why do you think 9 would cause more problems than 7? Just the suspected intended use, size of van, or something else? I wouldn't want to have to do anything twice as it'll cost a lot more, so would rather just get the benches made, I assume it would be cheaper if I get the same thing made twice, than two separate ones designed and built independently too.

    Del2005, once the GVW is 3.5t or under, you can drive it on B with no trailer. If you add a trailer, then the combined weight can't be over 5.5t and you need a BE license.


  • #35
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Dozens of conversion specialists in Ireland.
    There was a company in Kilbeggan that specialised in sprinter conversions
    for buses ect,
    Another in Tullamore, and another in Clara that specialise in ambulance conversions.

    Research, research and then more...

    As for the seats,,,, conversion costs are one thing, conversion costs with
    specific seat type custom fabrication, is a whole other expensive arena.

    Any harm in asking what budget you have for the custom conversion you are planning??


  • #36
    autumnalcore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 838 ✭✭✭autumnalcore


    cormie wrote: »

    I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:
    spacesaver_sidefold.jpg

    I'm actually surprised I haven't yet found something out there already for what I'd like, I think it's a great idea :pac:
    Three reasonably sized adults in a low speed 50kmh crash could easily exert over 20 tons of force on the seat and seatbelt mountings, not a simple engineering feat when you add in hinging and temporary connections to the floor. crash testing requires destructive testing and doesnt come cheap. 50k plus for a basic rock and roll bed according to uk manufaturers and wheres the return in a specialist thing like this.


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  • #37
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Might have ben a better option to start with a 16 seater Sprinter minibus as a base
    vehicle,and take out 7 seats, and convert that space.


  • #38
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Here is your solution for 13k. It ticks all your boxes.
    At this money you would be foolish to give your self the hassle
    of a custom conversion. And factory built to boot.

    https://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/iveco-daily-camper-van-2006-factory-build/19659115

    I think my work here is done:D

    460738.jpeg


  • #39
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,032 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    kadman wrote: »
    Here is your solution for 13k. It ticks all your boxes.
    At this money you would be foolish to give your self the hassle
    of a custom conversion. And factory built to boot.


    No seat belts


  • #40
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Ad says different, so do pictures,

    Iveco Daily Camper Van 2006 (factory build)
    15 days 4,308 views Waterford City, Waterford
    €13,500
    Share
    Save
    Description

    Factory coach built camper, seats 8 seatbelted people. Sleeps 3- 1 double and 1 single.

    12 volt plus 240 volt power systems.

    15 litre water tank, hot and cold pumped water, sink and shower.

    Gas hob and oven

    Night heater

    Shower Room

    Toilet

    TV and DVD

    88,500 serviced miles

    4×4×2 rear storage

    Ample storage

    Remote control radio system

    Electric windows

    Towbar

    Fire Extinguishers

    D.O.E Valid until August 2019

    This camper is in fantastic condition and will be an excellent buy.

    Certified since Factory.


  • #41
    Alkers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Alkers


    There's another here: https://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/ldv-campervan-with-awning/19148505


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  • #42
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Personally I'd be looking for a 9 seater minibus, many of them come with night heaters installed already, have insulation fitted already and approved windows.
    No big deal to install a skylight or two and a bunk and cooking facilities, but I really think 9 belted seats will pose the biggest problem with Insurers.
    All you can do is to see what an approved SQI says on the matter, until then we are all just guessing what the outcome will be.


  • #43
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Hey everyone, thanks for the continued interest in this :)

    Will get onto the conversion specialists for sure.

    I didn't realise the seating thing would be so complicated and potentially so expensive. Budget wise, I really hadn't a clue, but by the sounds of it, it seems I've definitely underestimated what it's going to cost. I mean for the seats, the rest I should be able to get the basics done.. I hope :pac:

    Automnalcure, them figures sound scary, but are you saying any seat ever approved to take a passenger in any vehicle, will have had to go through testing with costs of around 50k?

    Kadman and Simona, thanks a lot for the suggested vehicles. The IVECO looks decent alright and the LDV looks like good value. I think I got a decent enough deal on the Sprinter, I don't think I could make it close to the IVECO keeping it below the €13,500 it would cost me, but I don't need everything the IVECO has, plus the Sprinter is a 2013 so 7 years younger.

    I like the fact the Iveco is quite stealthy, I'd want the sprinter to be similar.

    I had to look up what an SQI is, and saw the definition here:
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/conversions/suitably-qualified-individual.aspx

    I'm guessing most of the camper converters would either have one of these working for them, or at least be able to put me in touch with one. Would be good to have a chat with a converter and SQI and see what may or may not be feasible.

    If I could find a converter, who could also make custom seats and who has an in house SQI, that'd be perfect!

    I came across these:
    https://www.donedeal.ie/caraccessories-for-sale/3-seater-folding-seat/18603239

    They could be good to put behind the 3 front seats if there's no need for the walkway. It says they have belts already, but this is why I was curious if any seat to be used for passengers would need to pass them tests and how would I know if these seats are legal or not :confused:


  • #44
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Saw the folding seats here:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BnAuvcrHVSm/

    Looks like these campovans are converters, I saw them linked to under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki7MgGZ5gPI

    Now if only I can find some that can take 3 peeps and fold out 180 degrees to be a bed too :pac:


    What is DOT compliant? One of the questions on the instagram post is asking if they are compliant or not, do we have that here?


    EDIT: Just leaving some info here so I have it later, manufacture of folding seat is Freedman Seating and the double seems affordable here:
    https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/double-mid-back-bv-foldaway-bus-seat-in-gray-cloth-with-2point-belts--street-side

    3 person flip version (not what I want) available here:
    https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/1-2-or-3-person-feather-handi-flip-bus-seat--custom-order



    Got talking to live chat:

    Hi Rafael, can you tell me, do you have anything like this, but in a 3 seater version:
    https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/double-mid-back-bv-foldaway-bus-seat-in-gray-cloth-with-2point-belts--street-side


    Rafael at 13:47, Sep 11:
    No unfortunately the manufacturer only makes a double in foldaways, you can get a handi flip in a three seater.
    Give me a second while I get you the link
    https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/1-2-or-3-person-feather-handi-flip-bus-seat--custom-order
    Please follow that link to view


    Cormac at 13:59, Sep 11:
    Can you disclose who the manufactuer of the first one I send is please?

    Rafael at 14:00, Sep 11:
    It's the same manufacturer as the second one
    Freedman Seating

    Cormac at 14:00, Sep 11:
    Great, thanks, I'm actually looking for something that is a 3 seater like the first one, but not only folds from 0 to 90 degrees to create a backrest, but that could also fold back 180 degrees to create a bed in a camper too :P

    Rafael at 14:01, Sep 11:
    I understand, if there anything else I can help you with?

    Cormac at 14:02, Sep 11:
    if I end up going for the double folding one, it says it complies with ADA criteria, does this mean it's suitable for all passenger carriage use? I saw somebody ask if it's DOT compliant in a post online, do you know what this means, and if it is?

    Rafael at 14:03, Sep 11:
    DOT is the department of transportation
    The seats are FMVSS certified
    FMVSS is the Federal Motor Vehicle Standards

    Cormac at 14:04, Sep 11:
    cool, so I guess that means they'd have no problem being approved for use in any conversion then? :)

    Rafael at 14:05, Sep 11:
    The seats are certified but the installation will have to meet certain standards as well.
    As far as the installation, I cannot give you any advice on how to do it, it's completely up to the installer to install the seats properly

    Cormac at 14:06, Sep 11:
    ah I understand, thanks! Finally, is it possible to arrange for international shipping? To Ireland specifically... or to the UK even?
    I'd potentially be looking to buy 3

    Rafael at 14:07, Sep 11:
    Yes we can ship internationally
    Please know these are big heavy seats so the shipping will not be inexpensive

    Cormac at 14:08, Sep 11:
    yeah, I'm guessing they are about 40kg each?

    Rafael at 14:09, Sep 11:
    It's more than that, a little over a 100 lbs

    Cormac at 14:11, Sep 11:
    so maybe 150kg max shipping weight? Any idea what that would cost and do you ship by sea?

    Rafael at 14:12, Sep 11:
    Unfortunately I cannot give you an estimate without your full shipping address

    Cormac at 14:13, Sep 11:
    The shipping address will be:
    ******

    Rafael at 14:15, Sep 11:
    Ok great, this is for 3 seats of the first seat you sent over to me correct?

    Cormac at 14:25, Sep 11:
    yep
    Item Code:FR-0248 Price Range: $650.00#
    do you think there'd be any issues with these for motorway driving since they don't have head rests? Yep, that's the correct email address

    Rafael at 14:28, Sep 11:
    As previously stated these seats are FMVSS certified, we sell these particular seats all the time with no headrests

    Cormac at 14:34, Sep 11:
    ok, thanks a lot! I'll await your email, thanks for the help :)


  • #45
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    If you are not sure of the terminology on the different departments that will rule, yay or nay
    on your project, I think it would be wise to familiarize these things at the outset before you
    make any more input on your design criteria.

    Little point either in considering what may be acceptable in any other country apart from Ireland
    and the EU.

    I think you are getting too much info from everywhere, bar the experts you should be talking to

    Good luck with your project..........:)


  • #46
    Alkers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Dot is dept. of transport but meaningless in Ireland


  • #47
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,839 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Thanks guys, I spoke to Vanderlust in Clare before seeing your replies and what he said reflects what you guys are saying. He basically said any certification for something outside the EU won't really mean anything here. I'm not sure if that means they can't be used at all, or what though?

    He said they get their seats from https://www.scopema.com/langGB/accueil.php in France, but there's nothing there similar to what I want unfortunately, so I'll try keep my research within the EU :)

    He also said you need 2 windows in the back and they need to be on either side, he said doing the sliding door and the opposite panel would be enough and that'd be 650 including vat for 2 privacy windows, then if you want them with openings it'd be about another 200 on top.


    EDIT: just putting this here to have a read of later when I have time :D:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057292579


  • #48
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    I have thought about this and tbh the easiest way would be to install tracking and moveable seats, they won't fold up and sideways but you will be able to move them whereever you want within reason.
    https://www.nmisafety.com/


  • #49
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks guys, I spoke to Vanderlust in Clare before seeing your replies and what he said reflects what you guys are saying. He basically said any certification for something outside the EU won't really mean anything here. I'm not sure if that means they can't be used at all, or what though?

    If they aren't CE certified then they won't be allowed to be used in the EU, you won't get your camper conversion signed off and will struggle with insurance is they look for certs. If you fit them and anything happens then you'd be liable and possibly open to prosecution.


  • #50
    elperello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,603 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    cormie wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Ah, so getting insurance as a camper without the walkway might prove difficult.. Hmmm.. To be honest, I haven't even looked into the cost of camper tax or insurance. I recall the tax is cheap, but commercial is affordable enough on this van @ €333 per year anyway, if camper is cheaper than that, then brilliant.

    Insurance wise, I haven't a clue what the difference in price will be, so maybe it won't make too much difference, just as long as it can still be used with the passenger seats and to sleep in and live out of and there's no issues doing this on a commercial policy?

    It's an interesting thread and I wish you all the best with the project.

    Just to point out that you won't be able to get the €333 tax without signing a form witnessed by a Garda stating that you will only use the van for business. There will be other documentation required which varies from one local authority to another. Best check with your LA.


  • #51
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    elperello wrote: »
    It's an interesting thread and I wish you all the best with the project.

    Just to point out that you won't be able to get the €333 tax without signing a form witnessed by a Garda stating that you will only use the van for business. There will be other documentation required which varies from one local authority to another. Best check with your LA.

    That will be an interesting conversation with a camper vehicle, both with Mr Policeman and INS. Too many headaches.


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