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Should we drop Proportional Representation

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Comments

  • #202
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,476 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    View wrote: »
    Given that the European Parliament largely operates on a party political/ideological bloc basis

    And FF are in the Liberal group, which is a joke really, but FG had already bagged the EPP...

    Scrap the cap!



  • #203
    PommieBast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    There’s really no argument in favour of getting rid of PR STV from what I can see.
    Any system has to be a balance between accurate representing the population as a whole and delivering the arithmetic that can lead to a functional government. The gripe against STV is that it has delivered a block of 20 independents (more if single-TD parties are included) and while they are there government instability is inevitable.


  • #204
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    What evidence is there that we've had government any history of instability?

    Ireland's been ranking amongst the most politically stable group of countries, way ahead of France, UK, the USA and even ahead of Canada and Australia, Denmark, Austria and Sweden.

    We rode through an economic collapse, without even a whimper of political instability. The electorate punished FF, quite severely by any international comparisons, the Dail didn't go into chaos and we ended up with FF slowly reemerging but with nothing like the levels of power they've had before.

    The current government took a while to form, but that was also complicated by a backdrop of a global pandemic and it's still massively more stable than say Belgium, which uses PR-List systems and can barely manage to even form a government at all.

    I'm seeing a lot of chasing around for solutions to a problem we don't have.

    If you want to preempt problems with stability, the work needs to be done in the Dail to built systems that are more even more about consensus building and encouraging cross-spectrum, deliberative processes.


  • #205
    PommieBast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    What evidence is there that we've had government any history of instability?
    Not much. I was explaining the argument rather than agreeing with it. A lot of people only ever look back 1 or 2 elections and equate anything other than majority government with instability.


  • #206
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    PommieBast wrote: »
    Not much. I was explaining the argument rather than agreeing with it. A lot of people only ever look back 1 or 2 elections and equate anything other than majority government with instability.

    At that rate they’d be looking at writing off most of the most stable parts of the world, almost all of which run multiparty PR democracies that regularly produce complex coalitions.

    The key factor in stability is the politics itself. Ireland has had a fairly remarkable ability to find the centre and common ground positions. There’s a fairly strong history of it.


  • #207
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He was acquitted, and left the court without a stain on his character.

    I'll refrain from comment on that in case my sarcasm detector has failed. Pat O'Connor was acquitted of voter fraud despite being seen going into two different polling stations, applying for a vote and disappearing into a booth because, due to the secrecy of the ballot, nobody could prove he actually voted twice.

    The offence now is in just applying for a second vote rather than voting twice.


  • #208
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,683 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    I'll refrain from comment on that in case my sarcasm detector has failed . . .
    It has. :)


  • #209
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    What evidence is there that we've had government any history of instability?

    Here's how unstable we are

    https://i.imgur.com/KHK5AUl.gif

    Political Position of Governing Parties of Europe 1946-2017


  • #210
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Yeah, get rid of PR. It allows the vote to be split too many ways and we just end up with these weak coalition governments that are incapable of affecting a coherent platform. I've heard it said that "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

    Another thing I'd suggest in order to counter the potential dangers of unbridled democracy would be the to empower the Seanad a lot more. Make them capable of vetoing laws passed by the Dail.

    I would also make senators appointed by County Councils with each county having exactly two senators with the Councils having the power to recall senators that displease them. Since local politics usually has a lot more continuity than national politics, a senate appointed by local authorities would be more "conservative" and inclined to rein in the Dail if it lost the run of itself.

    This is all if I was asked to re-write the Constitution. I don't expect any of this would ever be implemented.


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  • #211
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    Yeah, get rid of PR. It allows the vote to be split too many ways and we just end up with these weak coalition governments that are incapable of affecting a coherent platform. I've heard it said that "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

    Another thing I'd suggest in order to counter the potential dangers of unbridled democracy would be the to empower the Seanad a lot more. Make them capable of vetoing laws passed by the Dail.

    I would also make senators appointed by County Councils with each county having exactly two senators with the Councils having the power to recall senators that displease them. Since local politics usually has a lot more continuity than national politics, a senate appointed by local authorities would be more "conservative" and inclined to rein in the Dail if it lost the run of itself.

    This is all if I was asked to re-write the Constitution. I don't expect any of this would ever be implemented.

    It would be better to start with strengthening local government. The control of some services should be entirely controlled locally and not centrally. The number of Councils should be reduced also - to about twelve.

    The Seanad should be elected by the same electorate as the Dail on the same day. Currently there is a bias towards rural councils because the councillors all get the same vote for the Seanad irrespective of the no of first pref votes they got. This means currently a Dublin councillor is representing a high multiple of voters than some rural councillors voters.


    Having the vote on the same day as the Dail would remove the wannabe TD and the failed TD from standing. The Senate has too many failed TDs in its ranks.


  • #212
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,541 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sam Russell wrote: »

    Having the vote on the same day as the Dail would remove the wannabe TD and the failed TD from standing. The Senate has too many failed TDs in its ranks.

    I would insist on replacement lists, not by-elections for that specific situation as you would not be reasonably able to stop people running for both elections and potentially getting elected in both. You would assume that all of those would reject the Seanad seat.

    Would still want by-elections for all other vacancies.


  • #213
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    L1011 wrote: »
    I would insist on replacement lists, not by-elections for that specific situation as you would not be reasonably able to stop people running for both elections and potentially getting elected in both. You would assume that all of those would reject the Seanad seat.

    Would still want by-elections for all other vacancies.

    No, you cannot run for both. Simples.

    Replacement lists works for councils, but not for the Dail. The Seanad has a bielection, but the electorate is the Dail TDs.


  • #214
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,541 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    No, you cannot run for both. Simples.

    Replacement lists works for councils, but not for the Dail. The Seanad has a bielection, but the electorate is the Dail TDs.

    There are absolutely no other combo of elections where you're banned from running from both; even on the same day. Virtually nobody would run for the Seanad if you were so limited, unless the Seanad was also given massively increased powers.

    As goes by-elections, I am specifically talking about in your proposed system, not the current one.

    As it stands, councils don't use replacement lists; they usually use nominations by party members / the former councillor if Independent and can but rarely do go against them. And each council can actually choose what to do; countback (last eliminated) is an alternative that has been used in the past for Independents on some councils. Only Europe uses replacement lists currently.


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