Male low esteem

Er, ok, but that has decreased in recent years. It wouldn't account for any kind of rise in the figures.

Personally I think there are a whole plethora of factors causing the pattern that your friend has noticed. I think there are only relatively minor increases in the incidences of low male self esteem and confidence levels, but a major increase in individuals suffering from these afflictions seeking advice and/or treatment for them.

Previous generations of Irish men would barely have acknowledged these conditions as a condition, never mind actively seek advice on how to combat it, being taught from the minute they became able to absorb information, either subliminally or overtly from strong patriarchal figures within the home or society in general, that to seek help is to show a weakness. With the modernisation of Irish society, self analysis is no longer stigmatised, it is largely encouraged, leading to self-diagnosis and a cry for help. Also, given that the society we live in is generally devoid of conflict, the individual tends to look internally for it. Self-analysis is not nearly as much fun as war, but it's a bloodshed free substitute. When the individual does isolate a problem within himself he seeks professional help, believing that his peers are incapable of discussing the problem with him, or being incapable himself of approaching them because of the societal factors above, and referenced by Neuro in the previous post (simu may have been alluding to something along these lines too).

As for the increase in, or already high levels of, these conditions and the related mass-suicide of young Irish males, most of the factors are surely societal. The modern western man is at a crossroads of sort, having come from a history where he had fairly well defined masculine roles within the home, workplace and society as a whole, he has now seen an erosion of his responsibilities and a sea-change in the roles he is supposed to play. His entire vista has changed with the rise of the liberated, empowered, confident woman. He's told it's ok to be house-husband, to have a female boss, to wear mosturiser, to discuss his emotions, whereas the male role models he grew up clearly didn't do these things and many of his peers clearly still subscribe to the old school train of thought on these matters. The end result is that the modern man regularly finds himself in situations where he has difficulty reconciling the guidance he received as a youth with the needs of the situation, frequently having never received any applicable or relevent guidance at all. This can lead to an increasing feeling of lonliness or isolation, a sense of having being cast adrift to face life on his own.

We also live in an increasingly image-driven world, where it is considered de rigueur to judge an individual by their aesthetic appearance. This is, again, something that the Irish male would not traditionally have had to deal with and can have great difficulty doing so now, being from a genetic line not known for its cosmetic beauty and a tradition which venerated the beer gut. Couple these considerations with the changing topography of the Irish dating scene, now populated with more assertive, more affluent, young women and you are inevitably left with some casualties.

The economic situation is also taking a toll. Ostensibly we are the most well off generation of Irish people ever seen, yet the vast majority of that wealth is concentrated among a relatively select group of people, with the remainder trying to keep up appearances of being within that select group. I saw a feature in the Irish Times Weekend supplement about three weeks ago where they interviewed a sample of Irish twenty-somethings (male and female) and one common theme emerged pretty clearly from the conversations: the burning need to achieve. Seeing the wealth around him, wealth which has a lot in common with the emperors new clothes, the Irish male who is having difficulty making ends meet is left with a strong feeling of inadequacy, of being the one person without a house, or the one person that the economic good times missed. This will obviously spark feelings of low self esteem.

There are obviously more factors, some genetic I'd imagine, to explain this phenomenon, but in my mind the above are certainly some of the main influences.

impr0v, after that post I can't really contribute much to this thread other than to say I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The emasculation of the male role in society, combined with a (relatively new) level of conscientiousness of image and the financial gap between the much-publicised economic 'elite' and the rest of us are the main contributors to our shamefully high suicide rates.

The homophobic tendancies of many Irish males have, in my opinion, absolutely nothing to do with rising suicide rates amongst men in this country. I'm not saying that it's easy for gay people to come out (it probably won't be within our lifetimes thanks to the bigotry espoused by many of the world's major belief systems) but it's certainly never been easier in Irish society. If anything I'd wager that suicides related to a fear of one's own sexuality are in decline.

Just to add to the point about the Celtic Tiger. Another factor there that depresses a lot of males (myself included) is the feeling of being lied to or cheated by the demise of the tiger. When I started college in 1998, we were all sold the idea that once we graduated with computer skills we'd all be hired into great well-paid jobs where our skills would be appreciated. Fast-forward four years to 2002, the bubble has burst (but prices are still rising), and we're all graduating in a pretty barren job market (I would have been in the top quarter of my class and had to send out over a hundred CV's to get a pretty poorly paid job). There's a definite sense that we missed out on the opportunities that those only a couple of years older than us had. That we too should have the nice cars, apartments etc. Then you go out in Dublin, make the mistake of going somewhere like Café En Seine and run into all those that got out in time to make it and some snotty prick (there's always one) will decide to rub your face in it. Sure, you know you're probably a better person than him/her but it still makes you question your own worth to a degree. He/She may be an ignorant cvnt, but he's/she's an ignorant cvnt that has far more in life than you do.

It's a pretty personal observation but I'd very much doubt that I'm unique in this way...

I must say I'd be curious to hear some women's perceptions of this subject.

Ixoy - I'm another CS in '97. Finished in '00. My bro did the exact same course but finished on '95. His class are all minted; very secessful.
I did CS because (and almost soley because) of the money I was "gaurenteed". I didn't study what I wanted to because I wasn't confident of getting a job.

Spot on what both of you have said.
It's now 5 years later and I still don't have the mansion or the penthouse suite or the McLauren F1 or the supermodel wife! What gives?

simu wrote:

Why this difference? Is it just that some people have a greater thirst for life/coping skills than others?

some people are more susecptable to pressure.
In fairness: traditionally women didn't "need" a sucessful career. (I'm not saying women didn't want/need/aspire/deserve a sucessful career), but it was/is an admirable role to manage a home.
Conversly it is unfortunatly also an unwritten rule, that, as a "man", you must be strong; you must not cry in public. If you want the supermodel wife, you'd better be sucessful.

If your having a teenage crisis, that's not good sh1t to be dealing with.

A few people (pwd initially) have already mentioned the role-reversal that has occurred in advertising, and to my mind it's easy to under-estimate the effects of this as it's quite an insidious and at times, though it may appear otherwise, subtle message that gets delivered. For examples of the 'dumb man' sales pitch see the following:

--> The TV ad for the Fiat Punto where the sharp female skillfully pilots her new car around different areas of a European city while her dumb lazy boyfriend snoozes in the passenger seat. He doesn't awake when she lowers the window next to a group of road workers working a jackhammer, but instantly wakes with jealousy when she spies another easily led man and gives him the 'I want you' eyes.

-->The TV ad for those flushable bathroom wipes, where poor husband the klutz rummages in the cupboard for the cleaning equipment while smart woman cleans it all in a flash. Chubby husband even hits his head on the cupboard while extracting himself from it, the helpless git.

-->The radio ad for the VW Polo where n-n-nervous N-N-Norman can hardly speak to the confident woman he is giving a lift to, until he's safely inside the car, and then when he does gain some confidence the only thing he can do is ask her out.

The three ads above are just a small sample of the many that are out there, and it's easy to write them off and say that the products are being aimed primarily at women, and that the focus of the ad is the confident, empowered woman, but surely there is a way to market these items to their audience without belittling the other sex? There are very few voices being raised in opposition to the skewed image of males which such ads project, as the argument is easily countered with claims of 'women had to put up with for long enough' and it's true, they did, and still do. However, the short time period within which man has gone from being a debonair chap to which ladies politely come seeking to borrow some Gold Blend, to a chubby balding house husband who's only victory in life is fooling his wife into thinking he had cleaned the bathroom with elbow grease when in fact he just gave it a once over with Flash bathroom spray, has made the transition very noticeable. Are there clearly demonstrable effects of this? Possibly not, but it's certainly not helping the predicament modern men find themselves in.

Yet another aspect of the Celtic Tiger being discussed above is that increasingly men, and women in this case, are beginning to seek job satisfaction. The father of one of my friends laughed out loud when he heard the term, saying that there was no such thing in his day, and for a lot of people there wasn't. Economic situations dictated that you were happy with whatever job you could get, because a hell of a lot of people couldn't get them, and you rarely bothered yourself with thoughts of a career change.

Now however, individuals are realising, frequently after spending a considerable amount of time on a certain career path, that they are getting no real enjoyment out of it, and cannot see themselves doing the job for the rest of their working life. They begin to see themselves as working at jobs that they have little interest in, and making what they consider modest money for. They figure that they would much rather make modest money doing something they like, and struggle to identify that activity. When they do so, the cost of living is such that to leave their job and re-enter education would often involve financial hardship, if it would be all possible, and would leave the individual with sizable debts once they did re-qualify. Having gone through this thought process and then coming to the conclusion that it's not financially feasible to follow that route, the individual is left feeling bitter and trapped within their current career, heightening their sense of dissatisfaction with it.