"Fair play to you"? Society's double standards around child care.

Fittle · 16-01-2011 10:52am #1

Why do people always say 'Fair play to you for being such a great dad and paying maintenance' or similar???

No one has EVER said to me 'Fair play to you for raising the child alone' and yet, the men who do pay maintenance, or contribute in some way to the raising of their very own children, are complimented, as if it's an 'extra' they're doing

It reminds me of what goes on in our school yard.

We have one dad who drops his boy off to school most mornings (the mother starts work at 8am) and I've very often heard other parents comment on what a great dad he is for dropping the kid off.

Not one person has ever commented that any of the Mammies are great, for doing the exact same thing:eek:

The Corinthian · 16-01-2011 11:01am

Fittle wrote: »

Why do people always say 'Fair play to you for being such a great dad and paying maintenance' or similar???

Because it is used as a form of collective peer pressure to encourage other men not to abdicate their parental responsibilities.

Not one person has ever commented that any of the Mammies are great, for doing the exact same thing:eek:

Maybe you're right and maybe the same encouragement should be given to women for not abdicating their parental responsibilities too: "Fair play to you for not having an abortion".

I can see that going down well...

Fittle · 16-01-2011 12:03pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because it is used as a form of collective peer pressure to encourage other men not to abdicate their parental responsibilities.

Maybe you're right and maybe the same encouragement should be given to women for not abdicating their parental responsibilities too: "Fair play to you for not having an abortion".

I can see that going down well...

There's no 'maybe' about it, i AM right, no one ever says 'Fair play to you for feeding and clothing your child, you're a great woman altogether' Never. But they always say 'Fair play to you for giving your ex maintenance...'

And why always bring the abortion debate into it?

I was referring to the raising of children...when they are born...when they are actually living, breathing human beings who need food, shelter and care. No one ever says to a woman 'Fair play to you for doing all that...' but again, men are very often complimented for bringing children to the school gate, going to the school play, paying maintenance ...the list is endless.

I am guilty of it myself I might add - I remember there was one dad in the mother & toddler group back in the day, and I often thought Isn't he just great...never once did I think any of the mammies were great. Why does society do that, I wonder?

metrovelvet · 16-01-2011 12:14pm

Fittle wrote: »

There's no 'maybe' about it, i AM right, no one ever says 'Fair play to you for feeding and clothing your child, you're a great woman altogether' Never. But they always say 'Fair play to you for giving your ex maintenance...'

And why always bring the abortion debate into it?

I was referring to the raising of children...when they are born...when they are actually living, breathing human beings who need food, shelter and care. No one ever says to a woman 'Fair play to you for doing all that...' but again, men are very often complimented for bringing children to the school gate, going to the school play, paying maintenance ...the list is endless.

I am guilty of it myself I might add - I remember there was one dad in the mother & toddler group back in the day, and I often thought Isn't he just great...never once did I think any of the mammies were great. Why does society do that, I wonder?

Because in this country [and I say this country because you wont hear the same praise for a dad in the US] the double standard expects that a single father who fulfills even one of his responsibilities is an aberration.

I agree, with you though. THey shouldn't get a slap on the shoulder with fair play to you for doing very minimal [maintenance] stuff.

The Corinthian · 16-01-2011 12:14pm

Fittle wrote: »

And why always bring the abortion debate into it?

You asked why this expression is used and I told you. It is said not so much about the care of a child, but that a parent has not abdicated responsibility for it, IMO.

I am guilty of it myself I might add - I remember there was one dad in the mother & toddler group back in the day, and I often thought Isn't he just great...never once did I think any of the mammies were great. Why does society do that, I wonder?

Because society sees child care as a woman's job.

That may be sexist and even wrong, but it is that same prejudice that results in women getting custody 90% of the time when contested and gives them constitutional rights to their children, where men have none.

So when a man carries out something that society does not believe is naturally his role, he'll get complemented for it.

It's sexist, I know, but there you go and it cuts both ways.

Fittle · 16-01-2011 12:26pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You asked why this expression is used and I told you. It is said not so much about the care of a child, but that a parent has not abdicated responsibility for it, IMO.

Because society sees child care as a woman's job.

That may be sexist and even wrong, but it is that same prejudice that results in women getting custody 90% of the time when contested and gives them constitutional rights to their children, where men have none.

So when a man carries out something that society does not believe is naturally his role, he'll get complemented for it.

It's sexist, I know, but there you go and it cuts both ways.

It's not correct to suggest that your constitutional rights as a single father can be compared to society feeling that men are 'great lads altogether' for contributing to the upkeep of their own flesh and blood.

I wasn't aware that society saw child 'care' as a womans job. I thought a woman and a man created the child, and were therefore seen as parents of the child in equal measure.

The Corinthian · 16-01-2011 1:20pm

Fittle wrote: »

It's not correct to suggest that your constitutional rights as a single father can be compared to society feeling that men are 'great lads altogether' for contributing to the upkeep of their own flesh and blood.

I explained why, so if you disagree with me, feel free to address the explanation I gave rather than simply dismiss it.

I wasn't aware that society saw child 'care' as a womans job. I thought a woman and a man created the child, and were therefore seen as parents of the child in equal measure.

If that was the case the law would treat both parents equally, but it does not. If that was the case it would be equally acceptable for men to stay at home and care for the children as their wife or partner, in people's eyes, but it's not.

It's the same society that will treat more harshly a woman who abandons her child than a man. Or will compliment a woman for providing financially for her family while remaining silent when a man does this - because those are the roles we presume there.

We live in a society that does retain these prejudices, and it really does not take much observation to note that this is the case. If you weren't aware of it, then I genuinely think you've not been paying much attention.

Mr. Loverman · 16-01-2011 2:14pm

The world is full of double standards.

Different standards for men and women, blacks and whites, etc., and all the way down to different standards for two comparable people (e.g. he's thick so let's give him extra praise when he gets something right).

This is the way humans are and if you think about it too much you'll go mad.

goose2005 · 16-01-2011 2:27pm

On the other hand, if you wished to abdicate all responsibility for your child after the birth, you could do so by giving it up for adoption -the father could not. In fact, in Ireland you could give the child away even if the father wanted to raise him/her.

Zombrex · 16-01-2011 3:04pm

Fittle wrote: »

Not one person has ever commented that any of the Mammies are great, for doing the exact same thing:eek:

People complement single mothers all the time. My mother raised me and my brother until I was 3, and she gets complemented on this all the time, and I get told how great my mother was all the time.

If no one is complementing you specifically that is a different issue.

Zombrex · 16-01-2011 3:10pm

goose2005 wrote: »

In fact, in Ireland you could give the child away even if the father wanted to raise him/her.

That isn't quite true.

You can give the child away for adoption without consent of the father if the father is not a legal guardian of the child. You must though inform the father of the adoption (if possible). At this stage if the father wishes to raise the child he can apply for guardianship of the child through the normal procedure of the courts. If he gets guardianship of the child then the mother cannot give the child up for adoption without his consent.

The only thing that would stop a father who knows about his child and wishes to raise him himself is if the courts denied guardianship to the father.

The Corinthian · 16-01-2011 3:25pm

Wicknight wrote: »

You must though inform the father of the adoption (if possible).

Well not exactly true either. The exact wording is that a reasonable attempt and consulting the father is required. What 'reasonable' means or if there is any proof that an attempt was even made is not required, defined or enforced.

Fittle · 16-01-2011 4:09pm

Wicknight wrote: »

People complement single mothers all the time. My mother raised me and my brother until I was 3, and she gets complemented on this all the time, and I get told how great my mother was all the time.

If no one is complementing you specifically that is a different issue.

People compliment me specifically all the time - and I'm not being OTT here. I constantly get the 'You're doing a great job on your own' 'How do you do it' and 'He's a wonderful child, and you've done it, all on your own' type of comments and I always take them in the nature they are intended. I've a friend who takes them as insults, but she's a whole other thread.

My point here was that when a father does all of the normal, day-to-day stuff, he gets the 'Ah, isn't he great' type stuff. The normal day-to-day stuff, is just what I (and other mothers) DO. It's not an extra. It's just something I/we DO on our way to work...but somehow, when a man/the father does it, he gets kudos for it.

It's similar to the way society views a dad, staying home alone with 3 kids on a saturday night, while his wife/partner goes out for a drink - as 'babysitting'. Yet when the man goes out on a saturday night, and the woman is at home, with those same 3 children...she is just 'at home on a saturday night'.

I'd like to point out that my first post here was actually in reply to another post in the parenting section - it's not something I would necessarily have put in humanities (I presume a mod did

) - it was just an observation of mine.

The Corinthian · 16-01-2011 4:38pm

Fittle wrote: »

My point here was that when a father does all of the normal, day-to-day stuff, he gets the 'Ah, isn't he great' type stuff. The normal day-to-day stuff, is just what I (and other mothers) DO. It's not an extra. It's just something I/we DO on our way to work...but somehow, when a man/the father does it, he gets kudos for it.

And I suggested why it happens; because we still live in a World of double standards based upon traditional gender roles.

I've heard women being praised for bringing home the bacon while hubby is unemployed (and at the same time hubby being discussed with disdain for failing to provide for his family). I've never heard a man being congratulated for going out and providing for his family. The prejudice cuts both ways.

I'd like to point out that my first post here was actually in reply to another post in the parenting section - it's not something I would necessarily have put in humanities (I presume a mod did) - it was just an observation of mine.

You replied dragging the discussion off-topic into a more men-versus-women debate, so one of the mods, rightly, decided to spin it off to humanities.

Nevyn · 16-01-2011 4:42pm

Fittle wrote: »

My point here was that when a father does all of the normal, day-to-day stuff, he gets the 'Ah, isn't he great' type stuff. The normal day-to-day stuff, is just what I (and other mothers) DO. It's not an extra. It's just something I/we DO on our way to work...but somehow, when a man/the father does it, he gets kudos for it.

It's similar to the way society views a dad, staying home alone with 3 kids on a saturday night, while his wife/partner goes out for a drink - as 'babysitting'. Yet when the man goes out on a saturday night, and the woman is at home, with those same 3 children...she is just 'at home on a saturday night'.

It can be the same with any of the domestic chores, that a man is great who can cook and clean with out being nagged into it, but if he can't well that accepted and not seen as a personal failing were as it is seen as a personal failing if a woman can not cook or keep where she lives to a certain standard.

We unfortunately have different standards of what we expect an adult or parent to be able to do, based on gender.

The idea of a woman being the default cleaner and carer in any domestic situation is one which is harmful to both genders imho.

Mr. Loverman · 16-01-2011 4:46pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

It can be the same with any of the domestic chores, that a man is great who can cook and clean with out being nagged into it, but if he can't well that accepted and not seen as a personal failing were as it is seen as a personal failing if a woman can not cook or keep where she lives to a certain standard.

We unfortunately have different standards of what we expect an adult or parent to be able to do, based on gender.

The idea of a woman being the default cleaner and carer in any domestic situation is one which is harmful to both genders imho.

If a woman fixed a car she would be told she's great.

If a woman did the plumbing she would be told she's great.

Etc.

It works both ways.

Nevyn · 16-01-2011 4:49pm

Or she gets treated like she is a freak, I've seen that happen.

Fittle · 16-01-2011 5:06pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If a woman fixed a car she would be told she's great.

If a woman did the plumbing she would be told she's great.

Etc.

It works both ways.

Em, I fix my car and fix my plumbing when it needs to be fixed! I put a new tap in only last week. But because I didn't have an audience when I was doing it (similar to the schoolyard, when the dad who drops off is more obvious), nobody told me I was great.

'You replied dragging the discussion off'

In a thread of over 70 responses, I'm the only one who dragged the thred off-topic, enough for a mod to put it in an entirely different forum

Zombrex · 17-01-2011 2:23am

Fittle wrote: »

People compliment me specifically all the time - and I'm not being OTT here. I constantly get the 'You're doing a great job on your own' 'How do you do it' and 'He's a wonderful child, and you've done it, all on your own' type of comments and I always take them in the nature they are intended. I've a friend who takes them as insults, but she's a whole other thread.

My point here was that when a father does all of the normal, day-to-day stuff, he gets the 'Ah, isn't he great' type stuff. The normal day-to-day stuff, is just what I (and other mothers) DO. It's not an extra. It's just something I/we DO on our way to work...but somehow, when a man/the father does it, he gets kudos for it.

Ok, so you do the normal every day stuff looking after your kid and you get complemented on it. The father does the normal every day stuff and he also gets complemented on it. So what is the issue?

Are you saying a single mother doing it alone should get complemented but a father helping out his child's mother shouldn't because he isn't doing it alone he is doing it with someone else so it really isn't that big a deal?

I suppose you have a point there (if that is your point).

On the other hand at the root of it I think he gets complemented for the same reasons, he could have chosen to simply move away and ignore the kids. He didn't, and while that simply makes him not a dead beat, given the tendency (or at least precieved tendency) of fathers to go the dead beat route people seem to think it is worthy of a complement if they don't.

People tend to complement others if they break a stereotype. A girl who plays computer games will be considered "cool" by computer game nerds (who will then fantasize that she may actually ahve sex with them). A blonde girl with big tits who knows the capital of Pakistan will be complemented for knowing this, where as a frumpy girl will be expected to. People will say isn't it great that a male football star can pick up a foreign language when he has a club playing for weeks of intensive language leasons for him, simply because the stereotype is that he is thick and this should be really difficult.

Sure look at Susan Boyle. She got a standing round of applause in Britian's Got Talent partly due to her voice but mostly I would say due to the fact that she was pug ugly and awkward looking, and people expect someone like that to be crap but deluded. She wasn't, so she got extra complements. If it had been a young attractive girl most people would think well of course she can sing as well.

wolfpawnat · 17-01-2011 10:34am

Women are expected to be care givers and to do what is necessary for the child(ren) So for us to do it no one takes notice. It's when we do not do what is expected that we get comments and never good ones at that!

These days some (not all) men do not face up to being fathers and do not do what is right for the child(ren), so people want to encourage good fathers. My ex gets told all the time he is a good father, and though he is my ex I have to say he is.

I know we don't get half the complements, but as a woman, my thoughts are, if you are not getting negative comments, your doing it right

Bottle_of_Smoke · 17-01-2011 3:29pm

Fittle wrote: »

Why do people always say 'Fair play to you for being such a great dad and paying maintenance' or similar???

No one has EVER said to me 'Fair play to you for raising the child alone' and yet, the men who do pay maintenance, or contribute in some way to the raising of their very own children, are complimented, as if it's an 'extra' they're doing

Fittle wrote: »

People compliment me specifically all the time - and I'm not being OTT here. I constantly get the 'You're doing a great job on your own' 'How do you do it' and 'He's a wonderful child, and you've done it, all on your own' type of comments and I always take them in the nature they are intended.

Eh?

Kooli · 17-01-2011 9:37pm

I fall into this trap sometimes before I catch myself. My friend told me she went on holidays for a few days with a couple of friends. I asked did the hubbie look after the kid when she was away. When she said yes I said 'Gosh isn't he great?' and she was like 'well, he is her dad', and I realised how mad it was that I would be so impressed a dad could look after his own child on his own for a few days!!

I guess the simplest reason is that it's unusual - maybe that's enough to explain why people are so complimentary?

And I get the distinction Fittle is making - she may be complimented in general ways for raising a child alone, and how difficult that is, but won't be told she's great specifically for the small day to day stuff like making the kid's lunch or bringing him/her to school

Fittle · 17-01-2011 9:53pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Eh?

This thread has been taken from another (parenting) thread, where I was asking a question - it has now become a thread on its own, so my initial post may seem out of context.

My comment wasn't necessarily with regards to parenting alone (it just so happens, that I do). It was the difference in how society percieves each gender in relation to their parenting skills.

So the daddy (in my original example) drops the kids to school and the mammies look and think 'Aw, isn't he a great dad to drop his kids to school'.
The mam does the same job and nobody comments that she is a great mam.

I said that I get complimented for doing my job as a single parent more generally, yes. What I meant was that no mother (that I know of anyway) gets complimented for doing the day to day stuff 'Isn't she a great mother for bringing the kids to school...isn't she a great mother for pushing a trolley around tesco with 3 kids in tow...' etc etc are comments we never hear.

So my comment wasn't in relation to those of us who parent alone, it was more in relation to the differing standards that apply to men and women, who do the same tasks with their children on a daily basis.

17-01-2011 11:11pm

Fittle wrote: »

So the daddy (in my original example) drops the kids to school and the mammies look and think 'Aw, isn't he a great dad to drop his kids to school'.The mam does the same job and nobody comments that she is a great mam.

Because there is the perception that many of those mammies are not working beyond the day to day housework. Whether they are or not doesn't really matter. The mother could be the head of a company in addition to raising the children, but the perception remains that the father is out working, and has taken time out from a busy schedule to drop the kids in.

At the end of the day it comes down to an individuals perception of events. Perhaps in their own life, the husband works 50+ hour a week, and isn't available for his own children, and therefore another father that makes the time, is a gem. The reality doesn't matter.

I said that I get complimented for doing my job as a single parent more generally, yes. What I meant was that no mother (that I know of anyway) gets complimented for doing the day to day stuff 'Isn't she a great mother for bringing the kids to school...isn't she a great mother for pushing a trolley around tesco with 3 kids in tow...' etc etc are comments we never hear.

Well... that's kinda obvious.. Nobody gets complimented for the "normal" parts of their lives. I was rather excellent at organising customer information, but nobody ever really complimented me for it, because it was expected that I would be able to do so. Normal job responsibilities.

RichMc70 · 18-01-2011 12:15am

Fittle wrote: »

We have one dad who drops his boy off to school most mornings (the mother starts work at 8am) and I've very often heard other parents comment on what a great dad he is for dropping the kid off.

Not one person has ever commented that any of the Mammies are great, for doing the exact same thing:eek:

The other parents must be very easily impressed.

Personally, I wouldn't see what difference there would be if either parent perform this particular task but then I am not one who has Victorian values.

At the school where my daughter goes, I'd estimate that around a third of the parents dropping off and collecting kids are fathers. I can't say that I've ever heard other parents complementing them for this. Some dad's do it by choice, some of them because they're unemployed and take over tasks that mammy used to do, some do it because they are happy to share the tasks and some because their wives/partners are working in jobs that make it unable them to do the same task.

I'm not saying 'double standards' doesn't happen but personally I've not directly come across the 'double standards' that you convey.

Fittle · 18-01-2011 1:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because there is the perception that many of those mammies are not working beyond the day to day housework. Whether they are or not doesn't really matter. The mother could be the head of a company in addition to raising the children, but the perception remains that the father is out working, and has taken time out from a busy schedule to drop the kids in.

Whose perception is it that women don't work

Fittle · 18-01-2011 1:41pm

RichMc70 wrote: »

I'm not saying 'double standards' doesn't happen but personally I've not directly come across the 'double standards' that you convey.

That is perhaps because you are a man, and as I mentioned, this issue is quite gender specific - it is usually women who make these comments.

Have you never referred to the fact that you are babysitting while your wife is out? It's very common.

Men use the expression 'babysitting' alot when referring to the care of their own children (if the mother is out) - women just happen to be sitting in....You do not babysit your OWN children!

wolfpawnat · 18-01-2011 1:41pm

Fittle wrote: »

Whose perception is it that women don't work

Until the last 15 years women did not work after they got married. So it is the perception of most Irish people over the age of 40 and many under that too!

Bottle_of_Smoke · 18-01-2011 2:11pm

Fittle wrote: »

This thread has been taken from another (parenting) thread, where I was asking a question - it has now become a thread on its own, so my initial post may seem out of context.

My comment wasn't necessarily with regards to parenting alone (it just so happens, that I do). It was the difference in how society percieves each gender in relation to their parenting skills.

So the daddy (in my original example) drops the kids to school and the mammies look and think 'Aw, isn't he a great dad to drop his kids to school'.
The mam does the same job and nobody comments that she is a great mam.

I said that I get complimented for doing my job as a single parent more generally, yes. What I meant was that no mother (that I know of anyway) gets complimented for doing the day to day stuff 'Isn't she a great mother for bringing the kids to school...isn't she a great mother for pushing a trolley around tesco with 3 kids in tow...' etc etc are comments we never hear.

So my comment wasn't in relation to those of us who parent alone, it was more in relation to the differing standards that apply to men and women, who do the same tasks with their children on a daily basis.

I suppose it is that people judge other's actions relatively.

So he is unusual in that he is the one who does the things most men don't do.

Same way you had people going ''wow Barack Obama is soooo articulate'' -would they have used that term so much if he was white? Difference is they're not used to seeing articulate black politicians because most American politicians are white.

Nevyn · 18-01-2011 6:27pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Until the last 15 years women did not work after they got married. So it is the perception of most Irish people over the age of 40 and many under that too!

Plenty of women did but they were either the lower working classes or they were the elite professional uppers classes.

wolfpawnat · 18-01-2011 6:31pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Plenty of women did but they were either the lower working classes or they were the elite professional uppers classes.

Civil Servant workers were kicked out of work when they got married. It was just the way then. Of course people who had a business such as a shop/bakery/etc could decide themselves to keep working, but it was definitely the norm!

19-01-2011 1:49pm

Fittle wrote: »

Whose perception is it that women don't work

The women themselves... based on their own lives of not working external to the home. As I said previously, people will base these things on their own experience & their own lives. If they're working both at home and outside they'll have a different perception to the women that don't.

Kinda obvious, don't ya think?

donfers · 20-01-2011 3:48pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Or she gets treated like she is a freak, I've seen that happen.

you're right

no matter what interaction anybody has with a woman, be it positive or negative, there will always be somebody who finds a way to whinge about it or politicise it. It's a remarkably easy thing to do and often unhelpful, inaccurate and poisonous

I've seen that happen

The simple truth is that gender stereotpying exists, folks will get pats on the back when they do stuff well that their gender normally doesn't do well or isn't allowed to do well

goose2005 · 20-01-2011 11:22pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Until the last 15 years women did not work after they got married. So it is the perception of most Irish people over the age of 40 and many under that too!

The marriage ban ended 38 years ago. In 1996 there were 241,400 married women working. http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj91/horgan.htm And that also ignores the labour done by farmers' wives.

wolfpawnat · 20-01-2011 11:45pm

goose2005 wrote: »

The marriage ban ended 38 years ago. In 1996 there were 241,400 married women working. And that also ignores the labour done by farmers' wives.

But in 1996 Ireland had already came into economic growth. My mother worked while married, but it was still frowned upon then. My son's father and most of his friends had mothers stayed at home.

One of his friends sat me down one day and said how its where a mum is needed and he is so grateful for it and it as so good for him and his brothers. Their example of a friend whose mother always work, he resents her to this day, though his father often was away for a month at a time overseas, because she worked he resents her!

It is just the way people think.

"Fair play to you"? Society's double standards around child care.

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