Legalise abortion

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:26am #1

Abortions should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not be born. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can have abortions instead it would be good for all of us.

jhegarty · 17-06-2009 1:31am

Killing children under 2 should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not grow up. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can kill children under 2 instead it would be good for all of us.

Still make sense ?

seanybiker · 17-06-2009 1:31am

if its stopping criminals been born it is obviously gonna stop cops, prison guards, good people in general been born.

seanybiker · 17-06-2009 1:32am

jhegarty wrote: »

Still make sense ?

Me and you feeding a troll me thinks.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:36am

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

seanybiker · 17-06-2009 1:38am

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics?

Nope never, I do know what a child is though.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:41am

seanybiker wrote: »

Nope never, I do know what a child is though.

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

jhegarty · 17-06-2009 1:43am

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Yes there is a theory that crime was reduced 15/20 years after Roe v Wade.

But first, it's only a theory. There are many factors not included in any study I have read. Most of the same data could be used to show the Nintendo Nes caused reduced crime levels.

Even if you take your study as 100% correct then the question is , do the ends justify the means ?

jhegarty · 17-06-2009 1:44am

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

Your post is about reducing crime . your starting a whole new argument there.

SLUSK · 17-06-2009 1:45am

It was just a reply to those people who consider abortion to be "murder".

Fol20 · 17-06-2009 1:56am

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

You nailed it,
+1

Greyfox · 17-06-2009 11:26am

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

Yes but theirs a point when the fetus can blink, burp and do most of the things babies can do..their heart beats, twins curl up to each other, they show signs of human feelings...their is a point when the fetus becomes a human being and that happens BEFOR birth!

Andy-Pandy · 17-06-2009 7:31pm

I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

17-06-2009 8:01pm

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

The foetus is in her body but clearly constitutes a separate organism - after all, you wouldn't consider conjoined twins to be a single person.

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Shooting the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics would also reduce crime.

rantyface · 17-06-2009 8:40pm

How about neutering poor people? They did it in India. And they cull street children in South America. In some countries it's considered abortion up to three days after birth and in some up to a few weeks before birth. :rolleyes:

I think everyone has an equal right to life and deserves a chance, whether their parents are rich or poor. I've seen lots of people with various birth defects have fulfilling lives, but in many "civilised" countries they are considered too much effort and abortions are recommended. I think you're very snobby. Being rich isn't the be all and end all. Plenty of people are poor and still glad to be alive. Most poor people aren't criminals. We actually have a very low crime rate, the lowest maternal mortality rate and one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, and we don't have abortion.

A lot of the worst crimes in Ireland have nothing to do with class, like rape and child abuse. The crimes that most affect me aren't even illegal- like what the banks did with my parents' pensions. Looks like I'm going to have to look after them now! I don't know anyone who's had more than the cash in their wallet stolen by a junkie. Tax evasion is like massive scale welfare fraud. The injustices done to men by Irish family law. I could go on. But our violent crime rate and murder are very low by international standards.

When exactly does a foetus becomes human then, and what event defines that? I mean exactly, not just some arbitrary time in weeks that suits you because you don't want to lose your figure.

studiorat · 17-06-2009 8:43pm

Daft argument, the "uneducated" as you say would also be more likely to be religious and therefore be morelikely to be anti-abortion.

Now, I don't think abortion is murder. I wouldn't be so crass as to refer to someone who had a pregnancy terminated for medical or personal reasons a criminal. Each case must be determined on it's own, no law could possibly do that. However if someone does decide to have terminate a pregnancy they should be allowed have it in their own country and not as it would seem here to be liable to ridicule from all and sundry.

philologos · 17-06-2009 8:43pm

Here we go again....

studiorat · 17-06-2009 10:12pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Here we go again....

People have lots of reasons to terminate a pregnancy. It would be nice for them not to have other peoples opinions of them to have to consider when they are making their choice.

Jackass, I know you are a reasonable guy. At least you've been polite enough to hold back on the name calling. If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

Just one scenario, there's plenty more.

philologos · 17-06-2009 10:19pm

studiorat wrote: »

Jackass, I know you are a reasonable guy. At least you've been polite enough to hold back on the name calling. If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

You consider me reasonable? That's news to me

I'm personally pro-life, and by pro-life I mean everyones life. If my (hypothetical) partner (I'm single currently) life was endangered by a pregnancy. I would consider it far far more important to save one life than lose two. It is basically the only situation I can think that abortion would ever be justified. I believe it is our responsibility to protect human life. This applies in all cases. The case of the mother right down to the case of those who are on death row. As such I agree with Ireland's current stance but I do not agree that abortion is a choice rather it is only something that should be considered by medical staff in emergencies.

GirlInterrupted · 17-06-2009 10:34pm

SLUSK wrote: »

It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes

I always love a 'well known fact'.

SLUSK wrote: »

You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Personally, I don't think that civilization is defined by the availability of abortion.

jhegarty · 17-06-2009 10:49pm

studiorat wrote: »

If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

But this thread is not about medical needs, it's about using it as a method to cull reduce the number of the poor criminal classes.

Ostrom · 17-06-2009 10:57pm

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

That example was illustrative, hypothetical and flawed. Freakonomics was merely an argument for developing micro-theoretical approaches in economic analysis, one based on selective examples of limited validity. The only chapter based on extensive empirical work was the one from Venkatesh's phd

Examples such as that are always attractive, and dangerous: why invest in addressing systemic causes of poverty when we can just legislate? The implications of such an approach reach far beyond

Dades · 18-06-2009 11:14am

Arguing for abortion rights on the basis of perceived positive effects on society is pointless.

People don't oppose abortion because they think society needs more babies - they oppose because they think it's murder.

asdasd · 18-06-2009 11:20am

Daft argument, the "uneducated" as you say would also be more likely to be religious and therefore be morelikely to be anti-abortion.

Definitely in ths US. The Freakonmics argument has been debunked.

There may be other reasons to be in favour of abortion ( although I am not in favour of late term abortions).

Boston · 18-06-2009 11:21am

Abortion isn't illegal in Ireland. The procedure is carried out regularly. There's a range of medical criteria under-which you can get an abortion here.

asdasd · 18-06-2009 11:28am

In congregations in the USA and Australia it was found that the rate of those had a third level degree among those who attended church on a regular basis was higher than the average.

Source. It might be that exclusively in the Bible belt the higher educated go to church. However there is a definite correlation everywhere else between higher education and irreligousity.

philologos · 18-06-2009 11:29am

Boston wrote: »

Abortion isn't illegal in Ireland. The procedure is carried out regularly. There's a range of medical criteria under-which you can get an abortion here.

Interesting, would you mind elaborating on what these criteria are?

Ostrom · 18-06-2009 11:29am

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Just in case: Heuristics

philologos · 18-06-2009 11:32am

asdasd wrote: »

Source. It might be that exclusively in the Bible belt the higher educated go to church. However there is a definite correlation everywhere else between higher education and irreligousity.

Apologies I have since deleted that post. However I will cite for you anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_behaviour_and_educational_attainment

Boston · 18-06-2009 11:37am

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting, would you mind elaborating on what these criteria are?

Anything which puts the health of the mother at risk from carrying and delivering the child naturally. You have to remember Adoptions policy in Ireland is largely decided by the medical council not by politicians.

philologos · 18-06-2009 11:41am

Boston wrote: »

Anything which puts the health of the mother at risk from carrying and delivering the child naturally. You have to remember Adoptions policy in Ireland is largely decided by the medical council not by politicians.

That's still incredibly limited. Even in the most strict countries in the Islamic world this policy is applied to abortion.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

Dark Blue is where there is no exception to abortion being illegal
Salmon is where there is exceptions for the health of the mother.
Orange includes the above but adds rape to the exceptions.

Legalise abortion

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