Security Staff/Doormen thugs

HarryD · 26-11-2008 10:58am #1

Now I know not all doormen are thugs but in my experience many of them are.
I recently witnessed a night-club customer been pulled to the ground,
and kneed in the head until he was knocked out cold & was stretchered off.
This happened because he had a drink on the dance floor. When asked to
leave the area, he tried to negotiate with the security man. He was totally
un-aggressive but the security man responded with excessive aggressiveness.
I know the guy should have just left the floor, but it didn't merit that response.
On discussing this with a friend I was told of an incident where doormen used
a customer's head to open doors like a battering ram while removing him from the premises.
The guy ended up dead. To me this is murder, yet nobody was charged with such.
I would be so furious if I were that guys family.
I don't understand why security guys can get away with murder.
My cousin has suffered long-term effects from a blow to the head from a accident when younger.
He gets fits sometimes and will never be allowed to drive.
The guy on the dance floor may well have suffered the same fate or worse, all because of some un-professional paranoid thug.
My attempts to report it to the guards and contact the guy were in vain.
I suspect the guards were covering for the security guys, as they seemed to suddenly have no recollection about the case, having previously known all about it.
How can this be allowed to happen in our society?
Is there any regulation on security staff?
If not how many murders will it take for the gov to regulate these guys?
If so how can people still be treated as such today?

Make me very angry ..

/Rant over

Dades · 26-11-2008 1:22pm

HarryD wrote: »

If not how many murders will it take for the gov to regulate these guys?

You read of one alleged "murder" which went uncharged. Perhaps you need more sources for this case other than what a mate told you.

Bouncers, like any other member of an "enforcement" profession can be prone to overreact, and ultimately they are liable to the same laws as everyone else. But, like any puck in the head in a crowded club - it's very difficult to ascertain what actually happens after the fact.

murphym7 · 26-11-2008 1:27pm

Dades wrote: »

You read of one alleged "murder" which went uncharged. Perhaps you need more sources for this case other than what a mate told you.

Bouncers, like any other member of an "enforcement" profession can be prone to overreact, and ultimately they are liable to the same laws as everyone else. But, like any puck in the head in a crowded club - it's very difficult to ascertain what actually happens after the fact.

What about this one so:

Gardaí have begun a murder investigation into the death of a 23-year-old Cork man in the city early this morning. Adrian Moynihan of Ballincollie Road, Spring Lane, Ballyvollane, died following an altercation outside a city centre nightclub. The incident happened outside Sidetracks nightclub, which is just off Oliver Plunkett Street in Cork City centre, at about a 12.15am this morning.

Gardaí were suspicious about the cause of Mr Moynihan's death from the outset. The scene was preserved and has been technically examined. Gardaí also want to talk to anybody who was in the area at the time. They have also removed security footage from closed circuit television systems in the area to help in their investigation.

After the incident the man was taken by ambulance to the South Infirmary Hospital where he died.I]

This was the direct result of heavy handed bouncers.

Dades · 26-11-2008 1:55pm

murphym7 wrote: »

This was the direct result of heavy handed bouncers.

... who are now the subject of a murder investigation.

Not sure what else should be happening here.

murphym7 · 26-11-2008 2:48pm

Dades wrote: »

... who are now the subject of a murder investigation.

Not sure what else should be happening here.

Just trying to back up HarryD with a factual case.

HarryD · 26-11-2008 2:56pm

Dades wrote: »

... who are now the subject of a murder investigation.

....but were never charged, and got away scot free.

The corner was in this case was concerned

the coroner's comments concerning the training and regulation of door security staff. The need for a proper regulatory system for the security industry has been apparent for some considerable time

Yet are we still unregulated ?
Someone has been murdered... uugghh

Chucky the tree · 26-11-2008 7:50pm

HarryD wrote: »

On discussing this with a friend I was told of an incident where doormen used
a customer's head to open doors like a bettering ram while removing him from the premises.
The guy ended up dead. To me this is murder, yet nobody was charged with such.

If your friend told you that if you sucked his cock €100million would be in your bank after it would you believe him aswell?

Any link to this case at all, no?

HarryD wrote: »

My attempts to report it to the guards and contact the guy were in vain.
I suspect the guards were covering for the security guys, as they seemed to suddenly have no recollection about the case, having previously known all about it.
r

Excactly what attempts did you make?

HarryD wrote: »

....but were never charged, and got away scot free.

The corner was in this case was concerned

Yet are we still unregulated ?
Someone has been murdered... uugghh

from the link

that the decision of the DPP was that there would be no prosecution on the grounds of insufficient evidence.

No proof he was murdered. Or Do you think the DPP are covering for the Doormen along with the gards?:rolleyes:

stovelid · 26-11-2008 8:03pm

Not saying it doesn't happen, but the majority of door staff are fine.

I've been going out in Dublin for nearly 20 years - and have even been asked to leave a number of places myself - but can count on one hand the number of hidings I've seen dished out.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 26-11-2008 8:08pm

murphym7 wrote: »

What about this one so:

Gardaí have begun a murder investigation into the death of a 23-year-old Cork man in the city early this morning. Adrian Moynihan of Ballincollie Road, Spring Lane, Ballyvollane, died following an altercation outside a city centre nightclub. The incident happened outside Sidetracks nightclub, which is just off Oliver Plunkett Str.

murphym7 wrote: »

This was the direct result of heavy handed bouncers.

So you've done your own internal investigation and found that doorstaff are to blaim or have you got other evidence to support this?.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 26-11-2008 8:10pm

HarryD wrote: »

Now I know not all doormen are thugs but in my experience many of them are.
I recently witnessed a night-club customer been pulled to the ground,
and kneed in the head until he was knocked out cold & was stretchered off.
This happened because he had a drink on the dance floor. When asked to
leave the area, he tried to negotiate with the security man. He was totally
un-aggressive but the security man responded with excessive aggressiveness.
I know the guy should have just left the floor, but it didn't merit that response.
On discussing this with a friend I was told of an incident where doormen used
a customer's head to open doors like a bettering ram while removing him from the premises.
The guy ended up dead. To me this is murder, yet nobody was charged with such.
I would be so furious if I were that guys family.
I don't understand why security guys can get away with murder.
My cousin has suffered long-term effects from a blow to the head from a accident when younger.
He gets fits sometimes and will never be allowed to drive.
The guy on the dance floor may well have suffered the same fate or worse, all because of some un-professional paranoid thug.
My attempts to report it to the guards and contact the guy were in vain.
I suspect the guards were covering for the security guys, as they seemed to suddenly have no recollection about the case, having previously known all about it.
How can this be allowed to happen in our society?
Is there any regulation on security staff?
If not how many murders will it take for the gov to regulate these guys?
If so how can people still be treated as such today?

Make me very angry ..

/Rant over

What a crock of bullsh*t.

murphym7 · 26-11-2008 8:24pm

Mairt wrote: »

So you've done your own internal investigation and found that doorstaff are to blaim or have you got other evidence to support this?.

Didn't need to:

"
In May of last year, Dr Marie Cassidy, assistant state pathologist, told an inquest into the death that Adrian had died because of “the neck hold, the fixing of the chest and the pinning of the arms behind the back, leading to restraint asphyxia”. "

The Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal found in favour of the family last year.2003

My advice, get your facts staight before writing tosh. Bud.

How many times have people got away with things even though they are guilty? There is a phrase "getting away with murder".

Bottle_of_Smoke · 26-11-2008 9:19pm

Most doorstaff don't end up killing people. The first post is silly.

It's a **** job with low pay. It's going to attract eneducated folk.

Zombrex · 26-11-2008 10:08pm

HarryD wrote: »

How can this be allowed to happen in our society?

A few years ago I worked with a guy who moonlighted as a bouncer. In the space of a few months he had his nose broken, his face slashed, had been knocked unconcious and someone had tried to stab him.

It is a dangerous job and the bouncers are tough guys who are constantly on the defensive because any young guy (or girl) just a bit drunk could the next minute be a crazy psycho trying to kill them. They treat everyone as a serious threat. The fact that 90% of people out and about are harmless doesn't matter because it is the unknown 10% that they are worried about. And they don't know who that is until things kick off.

Put simply, just like a SWAT team, you don't f**k with bouncers. They tell you to do something you do it. They tell you to stop doing something you stop doing it.

rotinaj · 26-11-2008 10:11pm

https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/07988/bar-fight-death.html

[/quote]The father of Adrian Moynihan, a 23-year-old man who died after being dragged inside the door of the club by staff and pushed to the ground, filed suit against Michael and Kevin Corbett, owners and licensees of Sidetrax on Cork's Grafton Street. The suit claimed that Moynihan died because of negligence in monitoring staff behavior. CCTV footing showed that Moynihan, an apprentice plasterer, and his friend Daragh Forde went for a few drinks and arrived outside Sidetrax at just past midnight. They were not allowed admission; one of the staff said or did something to provoke Moynihan, who was seen to hit him on the face. Four of the staff were seen grabbing Moynihan and dragging him towards a door used as an exit. The doors were burst open and he was dragged inside, being held around the neck, and pushed to the ground. When he was taken to the hospital, he was pronounced dead. In a settlement reached, Michael and Kevin Corbett, admitted liability in negligence in the High Court and agreed to carry out the judge's order of compensating the family with a significant six figure sum. The judge also made an order of ?25,400 against the defendants for the distress caused to the family, the maximum allowed in a civil action. [/quote]

Doormen are now regulated by the private security authority(psa)

towel401 · 27-11-2008 12:41am

these guys are usually just brave men with a flashlight. I wouldn't take any **** from them

HarryD · 27-11-2008 11:04am

Wicknight wrote: »

A few years ago I worked with a guy who moonlighted as a bouncer. In the space of a few months he had his nose broken, his face slashed, had been knocked unconcious and someone had tried to stab him.

It is a dangerous job and the bouncers are tough guys who are constantly on the defensive because any young guy (or girl) just a bit drunk could the next minute be a crazy psycho trying to kill them. They treat everyone as a serious threat. The fact that 90% of people out and about are harmless doesn't matter because it is the unknown 10% that they are worried about. And they don't know who that is until things kick off.

Put simply, just like a SWAT team, you don't f**k with bouncers. They tell you to do something you do it. They tell you to stop doing something you stop doing it.

Good points. Good to see hear the other side.
I agree don't f**k with bouncers, do as they request, right or wrong.

Anyone know, do the PSA provide training for bouncers?
Perhaps we'd be left with no doormen if they had to prove any competence.

HarryD · 27-11-2008 11:06am

Mairt wrote: »

What a crock of bullsh*t.

Good point.. well backed up..
Let me guess... you work for military intelligence?
(your good spelling gave it away)

Einstein · 27-11-2008 11:15am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It's a **** job with low pay. It's going to attract eneducated folk.

Quite an uneducated post there mate, I was a Doorman part time for about 4 years, I run my own business tho...And the pay (when I did it) was far from low.

I do agree that lotsa doorstaff are twats tho, best one was a guy that worked for us that nobody liked, gave some guy grief at the door once, for no honest reason, the customer broke the guys nose, we just stood there cos he was a d!ck tbh, deserved exactly what he got.

its people like him that come in with slashed faces and broken noses...

Be courteous to people and they'll be the same back...

seamus · 27-11-2008 11:49am

HarryD wrote: »

I recently witnessed a night-club customer been pulled to the ground,
and kneed in the head until he was knocked out cold & was stretchered off.
This happened because he had a drink on the dance floor. When asked to
leave the area, he tried to negotiate with the security man. He was totally
un-aggressive but the security man responded with excessive aggressiveness.

As pointed out above, bouncers often have to put up with people who are themselves excessively aggressive and likely to do anything because of their drunkenness. Unless you had heard the actual conversation, how do you know what was actually said? Perhaps the bouncer had good reason to believe that the glass the guy was holding would soon end up pushed in his face?

The Moynihan case was unfortunate, but it wasn't murder. Going on what I remember and the pathologist's report, it was probably manslaughter. He was dragged back into the club by a number of bouncers and restrained inside the club, which caused him to suffocate. Unfortunately because there were no cameras in the club, it was impossible to say which bouncer(s) restrained him, so no charges could be brought.

It wasn't me! · 27-11-2008 1:36pm

It's a tough bloody job, one I wouldn't take on too lightly myself. I try to be as pleasant as possible to bouncers, because I've seen them deal entirely professionally with arseholes wandering up trying to push past them, spitting on them, throwing them a sly crack in the head before running away, all sorts of crap. If I were them, I'd have an incredibly difficult time showing the level of restraint the vast, vast majority do, in m experience. To anyone who's had a series of bad experiences with bouncers, either look hard at yourselves or go somewhere else. Life's too short to bitch about people who do hard jobs well and sometimes snap.

irenee · 27-11-2008 2:12pm

well i know for a fact what they do in a certain nightclub in donegal! lets just say i used to know this person. He worked as a bouncer and was bragging about what they do to people some nights. This story came straight from him. he said that some lad that was messing about, they got him and threw him ou the door, beat the **** outta him for the laugh and practicall left him for dead. But this is how bad they are, they just closed the door and phoned for an ambulance. So when ambulance driver arrived and asked what happened him, they just said they found him lying there when they opened the door. ****ing scum, most bouncers are knackers anyway.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 27-11-2008 8:12pm

Einstein wrote: »

Quite an uneducated post there mate, I was a Doorman part time for about 4 years, I run my own business tho...And the pay (when I did it) was far from low.

I do agree that lotsa doorstaff are twats tho, best one was a guy that worked for us that nobody liked, gave some guy grief at the door once, for no honest reason, the customer broke the guys nose, we just stood there cos he was a d!ck tbh, deserved exactly what he got.

its people like him that come in with slashed faces and broken noses...

Be courteous to people and they'll be the same back...

Ah come on, saying it's going to attact uneducated folk is 100% true and isn't the same as "all bouncers are illiterate morons" which you seem to have inferred.

lmtduffy · 03-12-2008 5:59pm

Bouncers are only as bad as the people they work for let them be.

I know a good few people who work in night clubs and pubs and the vast majority are extremley professional and do everything to avoid any incident,

and if anything does happen they all fill out alot of paper work to make it very clear to anyone else what happened this goes as far as saving cctv footage just in case.

If youve been abused by a door man its probably because the place you went to was a sh1t hole or else you were acting a sh1t hole

I am pie · 04-12-2008 3:35pm

Is it mandatory to employ only bouncers regulated by the PSA ? I know there is something similar in the UK.

I've had a few negative experiences, nothing physical tho.

Phototoxin · 06-12-2008 5:10pm

I've never had a problem with bouncers, probably because I dont drink

Dragan · 15-12-2008 6:07pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ah come on, saying it's going to attact uneducated folk is 100% true and isn't the same as "all bouncers are illiterate morons" which you seem to have inferred.

Quite a few of the people i did door work with were doing so to put themselves through college.

The vast majority of which did so successfully, so sorry for bursting your little bubble there.

johnnyskeleton · 15-12-2008 10:11pm

Dragan wrote: »

Quite a few of the people i did door work with were doing so to put themselves through college.

The vast majority of which did so successfully, so sorry for bursting your little bubble there.

I think his point was that it will attract at least some uneducated people rather than everyone it attracts is uneducated.

Dragan · 16-12-2008 1:12pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think his point was that it will attract at least some uneducated people rather than everyone it attracts is uneducated.

So will a hundred others jobs, it has **** all to do with the issue at hand though.

tallaght01 · 21-12-2008 2:42pm

The problem is a difficult one.

Most bouncers are pretty much skangers.

I have a good friend who was head of security in quite a few bogey spots in town. He takes meds to control his anger. Unless he forgets to take them, which happens quite a bit.

I'm really good mates with this guy, but he gets violent way too easily.

Most guys I've went to school with who are ow bouncers are the guys who couldn't even go to the toilet on their own when we were teenagers.

Now these people are being asked to do things they're not suited for, and have traditionally done badly at:

A) make character judgments about people in a split second.

Be civil to people, and not try to rely on being the bigman to make their points.

C) keep their head when things get a bit rowdy.

D) Act with restraint in violent situations

It's sad but true. I've met two really really sound bouncers in my time. I think if they were all like that, no-one would complain.

But ou're just not going to attract well educated people into a job like that. Even if you're going through college, that doesn't mean nowadays that you're educated. Anyone can go to college now. My mate who I mentioned above has just finished college.

I don't have a solution though. It's a job that will always attract those kinds of people I guess.

21-12-2008 2:49pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Most doorstaff don't end up killing people. The first post is silly.

It's a **** job with low pay. It's going to attract eneducated folk.

Thats offensive to me. I was doing door work for a few years on quite good money. ****ty job but i am an educated person.
Most people wouldnt last 1 day in the job.

mardybumbum · 21-12-2008 3:04pm

Have to say most of the bouncers I have encountered were brutes who oozed of ignorance.
They had no time to listen to anybody elses side of the story.
Id imagine some of them even relish the moment when things kick off just so they can throw a few thumps in.

21-12-2008 3:11pm

mardybumbum wrote: »

Have to say most of the bouncers I have encountered were brutes who oozed of ignorance.
They had no time to listen to anybody elses side of the story.
Id imagine some of them even relish the moment when things kick off just so they can throw a few thumps in.

Any bouncer with a license will not throw thumps in. Anyone invloved in a fight will be thrown out, simple as that.
If you're involved in a fight, your out and dont need to hear your side of the story.

seahorse · 21-12-2008 3:16pm

For every case you hear about involving a member of the public being the subject of an unprovoked attack, there are countless unreported incidents of security staff themselves being assaulted. These don't make the headlines because nobody is interested in hearing about these assaults and security personnel know it is to be expected in the job.

Unless you've worked in security yourself or have been very close to someone who does you wont have the first bloody iota what that job entails. The truth of the matter is security staff have to deal with violent dangerous scum every day of their working lives, whether it's aggressive drunks in our pubs and nightclubs or thieving syringe-wielding junkies in our shopping centers and high-streets.

It is very annoying to me to hear people tarring all security guards with the one offensive and undeserved brush, because the vast majority of them are hard-working family men who put up with incredible shyte most people wouldn't be capable of enduring or willing to contend with.

mardybumbum · 21-12-2008 3:20pm

LittleNipper wrote: »

Any bouncer with a license will not throw thumps in.

Well I know for a fact that is'nt true. :rolleyes:
And leaving thumps aside,some of their restraining techniques are questionable to say the least.
Aye, if someone is involved in a fight then theres no "side of the story" to listen to, thats not what I was reffering to.
I was refused entry to a pub because I tripped on a kerb and the bouncer thought I was drunk (had'nt had one drink at this stage)
When I tried to reason with him he just acted like a twat.

21-12-2008 4:00pm

mardybumbum wrote: »

Well I know for a fact that is'nt true. :rolleyes:
And leaving thumps aside,some of their restraining techniques are questionable to say the least.
Aye, if someone is involved in a fight then theres no "side of the story" to listen to, thats not what I was reffering to.
I was refused entry to a pub because I tripped on a kerb and the bouncer thought I was drunk (had'nt had one drink at this stage)
When I tried to reason with him he just acted like a twat.

Bouncers have a responsibility to keep the premises as safe as possible,sometimes you have to make judgments like that.
When i did my license i was told not to let anyone in who had already been drinking because you do not know how much they have had or what they have already taken.

It is a hard and stressful job at times and its impossible to keep everyone happy.

So next time you get refused just go to your local.

mardybumbum · 21-12-2008 4:10pm

LittleNipper wrote: »

Bouncers have a responsibility to keep the premises as safe as possible,sometimes you have to make judgments like that.

If this guy had actually listened to me It would have been quite evident to him that I was as sobre as a judge. Would a better judgement not have been made then?

Ah well, I gave up and proceeded to enjoy my night! :pac:

Just wanted to make my point. Merry Christmas

tallaght01 · 21-12-2008 5:55pm

LittleNipper wrote: »

Bouncers have a responsibility to keep the premises as safe as possible,sometimes you have to make judgments like that.
When i did my license i was told not to let anyone in who had already been drinking because you do not know how much they have had or what they have already taken.

.

Are we really to believe nightclub bouncers don't let anyone in who's been to a pub beforehand? Come on now.

It's just odd how every hot girl I know manages to evade the bouncers' "have already been drinking radar". They must be amazing at covering it up. Fair play to them.

Me on, the other hand.....well, I've been refused entry to a place for being drunk, when I'd not had anything at all!

seahorse wrote: »

For every case you hear about involving a member of the public being the subject of an unprovoked attack, there are countless unreported incidents of security staff themselves being assaulted. These don't make the headlines because nobody is interested in hearing about these assaults and security personnel know it is to be expected in the job.

Unless you've worked in security yourself or have been very close to someone who does you wont have the first bloody iota what that job entails. The truth of the matter is security staff have to deal with violent dangerous scum every day of their working lives, whether it's aggressive drunks in our pubs and nightclubs or thieving syringe-wielding junkies in our shopping centers and high-streets.

It is very annoying to me to hear people tarring all security guards with the one offensive and undeserved brush, because the vast majority of them are hard-working family men who put up with incredible shyte most people wouldn't be capable of enduring or willing to contend with.

I don't think people are talking about store detectives here. I've done security in hospitals, and shops in dublin city centre. Most of those guys were pretty sound. One guy would literally start fights with everyone who even looked at him sideways, and he'd walk around with blood on his fists, pretending to have forgotten to clean it off, just to show the rest of the boys he'd nailed someone's nose.

But, it has to be said....the guys who got us all into the worst trouble by starting fights...the guys who everyone else said talked the most shoyte....were nearly always the ex- or current bouncers.

Just my experiences, though.

21-12-2008 8:10pm

Its what i was told to do when did my license.
I dont speak for every doorman. Some do it their own way.

AARRRGH · 22-12-2008 1:42pm

I know quite a few bouncers. They're all nice guys, but I've seen them all act extremely violently.

For example, a drunk guy kicked one of their moterbikes (which was parked on the street where some of them work in pub A and some of them work in pub B.) They all ran out, dragged him to a quiet corner of the street, and broke both of his arms. He took legal action against them but died (unrelated) before they went to court.

I do believe working as a bouncer gives a lot of people a violence mentality. I also think it's fair to say the job of bouncer attracts a lot more scum than say, your average office job.

I don't doubt it is a very difficult job though. The public, especially the drunken public, is full of damaged individuals.

seahorse · 22-12-2008 7:27pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think people are talking about store detectives here.

By 'store detectives' I assume you're talking about security of the incognito variety; I'm not, I'm talking about the uniformed security guards who man the doors of stores and the hallways of shopping centers. I personally know a group of men who do that for a living, and I seldom see the lot of them sitting together without at least one black eye.

What they have to deal with from the public daily is beyond disgraceful, and if their jobs are tough I just hope they never make the move from retail, because dealing with cocaine-fuelled drunken scum on a nightly basis couldn't be any better.

Stones85 · 24-12-2008 11:19pm

irenee wrote: »

well i know for a fact what they do in a certain nightclub in donegal! lets just say i used to know this person. He worked as a bouncer and was bragging about what they do to people some nights. This story came straight from him. he said that some lad that was messing about, they got him and threw him ou the door, beat the **** outta him for the laugh and practicall left him for dead. But this is how bad they are, they just closed the door and phoned for an ambulance. So when ambulance driver arrived and asked what happened him, they just said they found him lying there when they opened the door. ****ing scum, most bouncers are knackers anyway.

What club was this in irenee? If you want to pm me it, that would be good. Used to do a bit of work up them parts.

Let me know anyway if you can. thanks a lot.

PS Milan in Letterkenny are the worst I've seen in a long time. But most places I've done security in the lads are gents, but you know yourself, theres always 1 and we'd usually have a stern word.

tallaght01 · 25-12-2008 1:49pm

seahorse wrote: »

By 'store detectives' I assume you're talking about security of the incognito variety; I'm not, I'm talking about the uniformed security guards who man the doors of stores and the hallways of shopping centers. I personally know a group of men who do that for a living, and I seldom see the lot of them sitting together without at least one black eye.

.

I'm talking about store security guards of any variety.

It's a crap job. Did it to help put myself through college. Wouldn't do it now for an money.

Security Staff/Doormen thugs

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