Euthanasia - where to draw the line?

Kama · 21-10-2008 2:43pm

You don't get to sign up to the laws of our societies, if you wish to operate within them you are required to adhere to them or suffer the consequences

Very static-conservative view of social rules there hehe, also a bit contradictory to your previous 'agreed by members' position; straight to 'authority sez so kk?'.

its with the principle that people selecting euthanasia are always competent to do so.

Which isn't an argument against, its a argument for fixing the competency threshold. I'm quite in agreement on this.

Rev Hellfire · 21-10-2008 3:00pm

Kama wrote: »

Very static-conservative view of social rules there hehe, also a bit contradictory to your previous 'agreed by members' position; straight to 'authority sez so kk?'.

Democracy has always been tyranny by the majority

Kama · 21-10-2008 3:27pm

And there was me thinking the Lizards were in charge...

Dades · 21-10-2008 5:13pm

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Well I'm sorry he couldn't go play rugger with simon and lads. But that in my book makes him a self-pitying coward.

Well that's the nastiest comment I've read on boards in a long time.

I'm having difficulty composing a post on the story in question, so suffice to say I have the utmost respect for the family and their decision.

40crush41 · 21-10-2008 5:44pm

I am a student of occupational therapy who is looking forward to dedicating my life people with disabilities.
This particular quote caught my eye “Over the last six months he constantly expressed his wish to die and was determined to achieve this. He was not prepared to live what he felt was a ‘second-class existence’."
My instinct is to question why should a person with disabilities feel that they must live a second class existence? They are people too, its the job of able-bodied people to work to eliminate this feeling of disconnect.
It is a devastating change in a person's life, its really awful, clearly a person who experiences any such change in life will question their existence. Of course they are having feelings of depression and suicidal thoughts. The burden on the caregiver is extraordinary, for them to see this change, from a person that they once knew to this new state. But I see that there is still life to live even in a disabled body.
So my challenge would be instead of helping them throw it all away to work to achieve engagement in other activities that will give their life meaning. Easier said than done? Well, I know that it can and is done.
I can't speak for him or anyone else, but for myself that I would find it very cold and lonely to bring the idea to my parents that I do not think my life is worth living anymore, and instead of trying to prove me wrong, to find that they agree and confirm my fear that I am a second class citizen and that it makes no difference if I live or die.

Kama · 22-10-2008 12:59am

Firstly crush, I applaud your vocation, and would agree that reducing stigma and building platforms which allow fuller integration of the disabled, physically, socially, and psychologically is a more than worthy endeavour. Thankfully we have made huge strides in this area in even the last 10-20 years, and although significant barriers remain, the capacity of a disabled person in a modern society is greater than in any other time in history, which (imo) does us credit as a society.

My point was more general and rights-based, simply that I support the right of an individual to pass on in a method and at a time of their choosing, without prejudice or recrimination as to their decision. This is not intended to mean that anyones life is of lesser value, but that individuals are competent to make their own assessment, and choose for themselves on this basis.

CDfm · 22-10-2008 1:11am

Im not with the euthenasia supporters.

i cant say why exactly - its against my religious beliefs but thats not why.

it seems to me that he could have a reasonably good quality of life. its natural for a person to want to live. many people with dehabilitating illnesses dont want to die.

its like he couldnt adapt and his life revolved around his sporting life -and he couldnt see past that.

that said -suicide is very sad -my problem with assisted suicide is its clinical and the person may feel "presurised" simply because the arrangements are made and cant possibly back out.

Otacon · 22-10-2008 11:07am

While I would hope, that under his circumstances, I would be able to decide to live, I can certainly understand his decision.

From the stories I have read, and seeing as I have not seen any contradictory evidence, he seemed determined to end his life. I don't know what physical or mental pain he was going through, but being of sound mind (as far as I can gather), he came to the conclusion that he wanted his life to be over. I get the feeling he would have done it himself if he could.

As for his parents, I feel for them. They had to do something I know they did not want to do, but felt the wishes of their son was more important.

As a general principle, I believe in a person's right to choose their life, and their death, if possible. I may not agree with all the cases, but I don't believe society or I, must force rules on someone else, that would only cause them suffering.

My €0.02

kizzyr · 22-10-2008 1:24pm

Moonbaby wrote: »

I would be worried about putting this decision in the hands of a mental health practioner.
I think there should be a system whereby a person states there intent, and then has a cooling off period. Where they must undergo mental health assessment and treatment.
The decision should always be theirs, nobody should be in a postion where a medic has the final say.

I don't like to make judgements about a situation based on such limited information.
But I just can't see this fella being able, to come to terms with this accident in such a short period of time.
I think in this situation they should have waited longer.

I can't help thinking of Frank Williams, the team principle of WilliamsF1.
He has achieved so much with a similar disability.
There are far worse situations to be in.[/QUOTE]

Such as? Its very easy to say something like that if you've never been in that situation or something similar.

nacho libre · 22-10-2008 10:30pm

i think his parents did the right thing here. they loved their son and saw he was suffering so they abided by his wishes. the selfish thing would have been to ask him to keep living for their sake. afterall, good parents want what it is best for their children. however, that said i think youthinasia(what do the youth in asia have to with this topic

) should be on a case by case basis. ideally in the case of a physically disabled people they should have a two year wait where they are assessed and if it is deemed they are of sound mind at the end of it then let them die. Anyone who is diagnosed with a terminal illness should have the automatic right to die if they want. i mean where is the sanctity in forcing someone to go through the agony and indignity of terminal cancer against their will. that is just cruel and selfish.

Kama · 23-10-2008 1:15pm

Times has an article on this, making the distinction between euthanasia and assisted death. It balances quite well (imo) between the possibilities of people in difficult situations, without implying they should 'get over it'.

It focuses initially on the legal ramifications for families due to the differences of laws between the countries. It reminds me a little of our abortion situation; 'don't do it here, go to another country'.

sorella · 25-10-2008 10:36am

Thank you for this sanity and sense.

There was a case in Holland where a young dancer, early 20s, requested and gained euthanasia because she developed arthritis in her feet and could no longer dance.

People who become disabled, especially young ones who love physical activities, need support and help and time to come to terms with their condition.

The ideas re euthanasia are all part of the culture of death than is gaining ground in the world; "Dr Death" in the UK to help old folk to commit suicide etc etc.

And in Holland, babies born with disability being murdered legally; for that is the only word to use.

As if disability and long term illness means a person is no longer of any worth.

Remember Harold Shipman?

Hitler?

Few of us as we age are without illness of varying disabling degrees; yet we know that we can in time adjust and adapt and gain and give pleasure in life.

It does take time, and it does take a lot of loving patience also. Most of all it takes the awareness of the sanctity and value and worth of each human life.

Gee; they would have killed me off years ago!!

I am deeply thankful to be alive.

40crush41 wrote: »

I am a student of occupational therapy who is looking forward to dedicating my life people with disabilities.
This particular quote caught my eye “Over the last six months he constantly expressed his wish to die and was determined to achieve this. He was not prepared to live what he felt was a ‘second-class existence’."
My instinct is to question why should a person with disabilities feel that they must live a second class existence? They are people too, its the job of able-bodied people to work to eliminate this feeling of disconnect.
It is a devastating change in a person's life, its really awful, clearly a person who experiences any such change in life will question their existence. Of course they are having feelings of depression and suicidal thoughts. The burden on the caregiver is extraordinary, for them to see this change, from a person that they once knew to this new state. But I see that there is still life to live even in a disabled body.
So my challenge would be instead of helping them throw it all away to work to achieve engagement in other activities that will give their life meaning. Easier said than done? Well, I know that it can and is done.
I can't speak for him or anyone else, but for myself that I would find it very cold and lonely to bring the idea to my parents that I do not think my life is worth living anymore, and instead of trying to prove me wrong, to find that they agree and confirm my fear that I am a second class citizen and that it makes no difference if I live or die.

It wasn't me! · 25-10-2008 1:22pm

I don't believe anyone has the right to force anyone to live against their wishes. The criminalisation of suicide is a ridiculous state of affairs and makes a criminal where none exists.

The decision is more complex for the person making the decision. They have to consider their family, their friends and those they know. They have to explain it and rationalise it for dozens of different people over and over. They have to make the decision knowing it will hurt other people, and be sure that it's still worth it to escape what they're feeling.

So, when a person has gone through all that, society should have no say in what happens. To legislate against it is more monstrous than the actions of a suicidal person ever will be.

sorella · 25-10-2008 5:39pm

Someone who has suffered major trauma and injury will also suffer a serious reactive depression... ie they are not thinking straight and need time for body and mind to adjust and begin to rally.

I may be wrong, but I do not think suicide is a crime on the statute books any more?

This is a question of protecting a person, and a young one at that, from the effects of a negative time. To allow them to recover in body; and to recover also from the effects of pain meds and other chemicals.

There can be few, if we are honest, who have not at a stressful time thought we wished we were dead. But we recover and carry on.

This culture of death makes it too easy for that time of acute crisis to destroy a precious life.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I don't believe anyone has the right to force anyone to live against their wishes. The criminalisation of suicide is a ridiculous state of affairs and makes a criminal where none exists.

The decision is more complex for the person making the decision. They have to consider their family, their friends and those they know. They have to explain it and rationalise it for dozens of different people over and over. They have to make the decision knowing it will hurt other people, and be sure that it's still worth it to escape what they're feeling.

So, when a person has gone through all that, society should have no say in what happens. To legislate against it is more monstrous than the actions of a suicidal person ever will be.

ChocolateSauce · 25-10-2008 8:56pm

I don't see a problem if they're 25 and perfectly healthy, if a person wants to die they should have that right.

Climate Expert · 04-11-2008 2:29pm

They are people too, its the job of able-bodied people to work to eliminate this feeling of disconnect.

Rubbish.

This young man was probably used to pulling women with the lads every weekend and thats not going to happen now. Is that the fault of able bodied people?
He can't paly rugby anymore and whose fault is that?
He can't have children, can't do a million and one things and the rest of society can't change that. Its just what happens when you are paralysed in such a severe way.

Victor · 17-11-2008 6:48am

DarkJager wrote: »

There's a huge difference between waiting for a sex change, and being told you'll never move again. 1 is going to be self inflicted due to mental reasons, the other is a cruel twist of fate.

Which is which? Are you saying people are betwixt an between, who have been incorrectly determined to be one gender or other and seek gender reassignment - do they suffer from a cruel twist of fate?

I know I couldn't live with that, not just for me but the thought of being completely reliant on other people for the rest of my life. He knew he wouldn't be able to move again and didn't want to suffer that or burden his family for however long he may have lived. Thats completely understandable...

Many people have their difficulties but get on with life.

Periscope · 24-11-2008 5:11pm

I think the orginal question - Where to draw the line?- is interesting.
It seems sad that a 23 year old would want to die but living cocooned inside ones body for life is a daunting reality to face.

I'm not here to give my arguments for and against the situation but for anyone interest in this type of case I recommend reading a book called The Diving Bell and the Butterfly: A Memoir of Life in Death. There is a film (based on book), but it is not as good. The book was written by a past editor of Elle magazine about himself. He had a stroke and was unable to move a single muscle in his body except his left eyelid. Blinking out a letter at a time he wrote the book I mentioned above. He descibes the pain of his condition but also his realisation that even though he could only move an eyelid there was so much he could do. He died about ten years ago I think. Very interesting and inspiring.

metaoblivia · 09-12-2008 8:42pm

This is a very emotive topic. I'm a former gymnast and spinal injuries happen in that sport, not frequently, but it happens. Most of the gymnasts who've been paralyzed from the neck down have gone on to have very fulfilling lives, despite their limited mobility. I can see how daunting and unthinkable that would be for some people. I know I would be beyond distraught if it were me. But I agree that, especially when they're young, those people need support and they need to see that they can still contribute and enjoy life.
However, I have unfortunately seen cases where I believed that euthanasia should have been offered. One little girl had a terrible accident on vault; her foot slipped off of the spring board and she crashed head first into the vault. She not only became a quadrapeligic, she also suffered extensive brain damage leaving her in a vegetative state. But her heart still beat and she was able to breathe, and her family eventually took her home where she lived in that state for years before she finally died. I think euthanasia should have been an option in that case. I also think it should be an option for patients who are terminal and facing a tough road to the end.

irishwheeler2 · 10-12-2008 8:19pm

I
hope the lead story on sky news this morning will help put the issue
of euthanasia on a higher agenda. Its scandalous that people have
no choice when it comes to ending their lives, when life itself
involves constant choices. It is galling that the principal opposition
for this comes from all the cult members, who believe that mere
humans should tolerate whatever **** happens, all so they can dance
on a cloud, and worship a figure who only had a rough few hours
for all eternity. On sky news this morning, eamonn holmes asked
anti euthanasia campaigner, just why humans should be treated worse
than sick cats and dogs, to which he indignantly huffed that humans
should not be placed in the same category as cats and dogs. Given
the depths that humans can sink to, this is a gross insult..........to
cats and dogs.Why
should this option only be open to those who can afford to get to
switzerland with facilitating family members? What happens if you
are unable to travel, broke and isolated as so many people here
are. There is a huge industry based around sick people, be they
from physiotherapists, medical people, drugs companies, caregivers
etc, and the cynical side of me questions their motives. Euthanasia
is never going to eradicate suffering or disability, but we are
not going to turn into some uncaring, maniacal society if we allow
people another option different to the current one of living on
no matter what state you're in. Yes life is precious sometimes,
but the question for me is whether there would have been any fuss, if this guy, like so many others, had died a natural death after
years of humiliating dependancy. I believe in life, just not life
at all costs.

allabouteve · 12-12-2008 12:14pm

This is a subject that I feel very strongly about, and has touched my life personally. The question of quality of life is a very vexed one and one that doesn't always have the most apparent answer, and in my view, even when the answer is apparent, some choose not to see the truth.

My brother, I'll call him Jack, was born with Downs Syndrome. My parents were told he'd be a 'vegetable'. He wasn't. They were told he'd be a complete burden on them, and would make family life difficult for the other children. He didn't. They were told that he wouldn't be able to communicate or contribute. He did. They were basically told he was a waste of humanity. He absolutely wasn't.

What is turned out to be, is a delight. His smile - sunshine itself. His presence inpires love and devotion, his delight in the simple act of a hug or kiss is the most uplifting thing I could ever have experienced, and it was a privilege to be his sister.

For anyone who questions his quality of life I would say that anyone who can find happiness and joy in the things that have made him happy, is someone with the highest quality of life possible. He rarely stopped smiling.

And for those who question the 'cost'. Well, he never cost the taxpayer a penny. And if every last penny I ever could earn was spent on his care, then that was money well spent.

So before you decide that someone's quality of life is inadequate and they should be removed from humanity, look at things from a different angle. I've learnt so much from my brother. I'm a better person for knowing him and the world is a better place because he was in it.

If the option of euthanasia was given to my parents, the chances are they would have considered it. And what a loss for us all that would have been.

Euthanasia - where to draw the line?

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