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Turbans vs An Garda Siochána

  • 15-08-2007 6:46pm
    #1
    Eglinton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭


    Interested in hearing your views and seeing the poll results. There's chat about this in an unrelated thread in After Hours.

    As an atheist I see myself as a quite unbiased person. In that regard I feel that an institution designed to uphold the laws of a secular state should be free from religious symbols and practices thus ensuring fairness for all, no matter what their religion.

    There was mention in said thread in After Hours that the Gardaí's own logo is based on a Christian Cross. This is sort of the case. The design is celtic in nature and has some adopted elements from Christianity but to me it simply represents Irishness and our heritage and history. Religion is part of that history as with any other country. The design's current use is completely secular. The argument that it still represents a Christian motive is deeply flawed because you can find forms of religious symbolism in every aspect of life. It's just been inherited and adopted.

    Should Sikh's be allowed to wear their turbans as part of the Garda uniform? 54 votes

    Yes
    0% 0 votes
    No
    100% 54 votes


«134567…10

Comments

  • #2
    B0X
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭B0X


    I voted no, not because i'm uptight about the uniform or anything but if you think; The average scum bag is not going to respect their religion and in turn their authority. But then again, what do i know?!


  • #3
    Gran Hermano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,330 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    If we allow Sikhs to wear turbans we will have to allow
    Muslim women wear to wear veils. Otherwise the liberals
    will have us labelled as sexist as well as racist.

    I for one would not be happy to see a female member of
    the Garda Siochana wearing a niqab or burqa.


  • #4
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Gran Hermano wrote:
    If we allow Sikhs to wear turbans we will have to allow
    Muslim women wear to wear veils. Otherwise the liberals
    will have us labelled as sexist as well as racist.

    I for one would not be happy to see a female member of
    the Garda Siochana wearing a niqab or burqa.

    No that won't happen. A niqaab/burqa would impair the acting ability of an officer which I can't see being overridden by any court. By Islamic logic I doubt there's many female police officers who are also practicing Muslims.

    Ideally I don't think religion should override anything. However I think it's a bit petty to be bothered by a guy wearing a turban. If we're reasonable to the religious folk they might be less defensive & be more open to secularism.


  • #5
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Not sure...how would they get their hats on? Or could there be a compromise with a dark coloured turban with a An Garda Siochána badge? :)


  • #6
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Hey guys,

    This isn't really anything to do with atheism/agnosticism.
    Moved because it's an interesting issue but much better suited to Humanities methinks. :)


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  • #7
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    should dail members be allowed to wear crosses around their necks?


  • #8
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    I voted no because an on duty guard is representing the state and the uniform symbolises this, as such it should be free from symbols of individual belief.


  • #9
    humbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭humbert


    Mordeth wrote:
    should dail members be allowed to wear crosses around their necks?

    people vote for them and their beliefs.


  • #10
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Mordeth wrote:
    should dail members be allowed to wear crosses around their necks?

    No, they should wear them on their backs ;)


  • #11
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The garda symbol is bases of a celtic or solar cross.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

    Sikhs have to wear thier turbans or else they are not Sikhs and there has to be a certain ammount of flexiblity tbh.


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  • #12
    harpreetsk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭harpreetsk


    The turban is not an offensive symbol. Neither does it inhibit communication, which is an argument used against muslim dress.

    The turban is practical, and not ceremonial. It provides safety to the head, aswell as hygienically protecting the kesh. I would argue it has far more practical purpose than a cap.

    we need to make a clear distinction between a Sikh turban and issues about muslim integration. Sikhs have encountered no problems integrating in many countries around the world. We would not like to see an irrational approach to discussions with sikhs due to issues with muslims.


    The sikh khanda is a religious symbol. No sikhs is putting that on the uniform. A turban is a essential part of a sikh way of life. A turban is used by many religions and cultures. The question here is why is the turban causing a problem for people of Ireland when it has not in other countries?


  • #13
    DemocAnarchis
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭DemocAnarchis


    As mentioned above, when on duty a Garda is a representative of the state, not a private citizen. The Irish Republic is secular, and hence no religious crosses, veils, turbans etc should be visible on duty.


  • #14
    mickoneill30
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    Mordeth wrote:
    should dail members be allowed to wear crosses around their necks?

    Those are ties around their necks. I've never seen a dail member openly wearing a cross. If it's under their clothes and doesn't interfere with their movement then fine. The men can be wearing knickers for all I care.

    I voted no. The idea of a uniform is that it's UNIFORM. Either they all have to wear turbans or they're all not allowed wear turbans. I'm easy with either option.


  • #15
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Have they considered what would happen if they let these "sikh" gardai wear turbans??? What are the chances of some scumbag grabbing it during a scuffle and strangling them with it??


  • #16
    zenith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zenith


    harpreetsk wrote:

    we need to make a clear distinction between a Sikh turban and issues about muslim integration. Sikhs have encountered no problems integrating in many countries around the world. We would not like to see an irrational approach to discussions with sikhs due to issues with muslims.



    Quoted for truth.


  • #17
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    People seem to confuse a secular state as meaning a state devoid of religion that is not the case. It is merely one which isn't overly influenced by a particular religious influence.

    Since Sikhs are not permitted to cut their hair the turban provides a practical way of containing the hair, additionally for aesthetic reasons it also makes sense.


  • #18
    Reku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    Thaedydal wrote:
    Sikhs have to wear thier turbans or else they are not Sikhs and there has to be a certain ammount of flexiblity tbh.
    Some details on the religion posted by harpreetsk in the AH thread would indicate otherwise, that it is not necessary to wear a turban to be a sikh, merely to keep the faith in your heart.
    harpreetsk wrote:
    we need to make a clear distinction between a Sikh turban and issues about muslim integration. Sikhs have encountered no problems integrating in many countries around the world. We would not like to see an irrational approach to discussions with sikhs due to issues with muslims.
    Does logic ever win out in the face of religious belief? As such do you really think Muslims would accept the arguement that pratical reasons are why the hijab is not allowed whereas the turban is? If we allow one we must allow the other, otherwise that will be discrimination.


    To be quite honest I can see some scumbag realising it's made of the ideal material... actually I'm not going to say it for fear of giving them ideas.

    If they let Sikhs wear turbans, then as long as they also allow any other religious paraphenalia people chose to wear I am fine with it, if not, then there is a problem in my oppinion, and due to the anti-muslim sentament that seems rife in today's world this (allowing turbans but not other religious items) is unfortunately the likely outcome...


  • #19
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    it's quiting shocking most of people are just out there to prove their point against turban. and people are just coming up with any stupid imagnary scenario which might happen as a result of inclusion of sikh turban in garda uniform. let us be bit sensible. Ireland today is different than it was before when there was no immigrants. it's only a decade since ireland started receiving people from different faiths and cultures, while countries like uk, usa, canada, has a long history over a century. if allowing turban in countries like UK, usa, canada, malayisa, singapore, even pakistan (considered to be fundamentalist islamist state) has not created any trouble or collaspe of their armed forces system, then it won't do it here. now most of people, brings muslim veil/burka in support of their argument, can you tell me anyone where muslims demanded inclusion of veil/burka in police uniform? and where it has been allowed? even if people from different cultures has some demands, these should be considered on case to case basis, should be accomodated so on.


  • #20
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    i saw this newsclip on bbc..hope people would reconsider their anti-turban stand. rather than pushing a community to a side, we should allow them to participate in society as proud irish sikhs.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6740000/newsid_6742500/6742547.stm?bw=nb&mp=rm&news=1&ms3=4


  • #21
    Flying
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Flying


    I am in the Garda reserve and the turban is bascially not operationally viable.

    Also it is not part of the uniform, hence it should not be worn, there are rules and regulations and they cannot and will not be changed for a very small minority.

    Also in a riot situtation do you have turban shaped helmets, motorcycle cops with Turbans etc etc

    This is Ireland not the UK and we do not have to change or be polticially correct to please the miniority.

    This is not racist this is simply a fact, if the person is treated correctly and the same as everyone else apart from the head gear issue there should be no issue.

    I am all for equality for all but in the forces weither it be the army or police, uniform should not be changed ever.


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  • #22
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    The UK police seem to manage it.

    As with many things, we spend time arguing about stupid things here when all we have to do is look across the water - they have been through all this 20 or 30 years ago, made their mistakes and learned from it.

    If some twisted version of nationalistic nonsense means we cannot learn from their experience, maybe we need to re-examine just how 'independent' we are.

    I somehow doubt there are hordes of Sikhs waiting to join the guards.


  • #23
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Gran Hermano wrote:
    If we allow Sikhs to wear turbans we will have to allow
    Muslim women wear to wear veils. Otherwise the liberals
    will have us labelled as sexist as well as racist.

    I for one would not be happy to see a female member of
    the Garda Siochana wearing a niqab or burqa.

    Couldnt agree more.


  • #24
    mickoneill30
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    What's the law in the UK regarding hard hats on construction sites. Are Sikhs exempt from having to wear those or do they have modified hard hats, or do they just not work on construction sites? If it's changed for a Gards uniform it'll have to be applied to everything won't it? What about motorbike helmets? Do they use special helmets? What about anything else? If they go, go karting are they allowed not use a helmet?


  • #25
    PoleStar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭PoleStar


    fairdeal wrote:
    i saw this newsclip on bbc..hope people would reconsider their anti-turban stand. rather than pushing a community to a side, we should allow them to participate in society as proud irish sikhs.

    I feel exactly the same, that we must welcome integration. However interestingly the conclusion I arrive at is to ensure integration, we must ensure that they follow the rules of the Gardai i.e. follow the rules about uniforms.

    I as an atheist would personally be offended by a Garda coming to my aid wearing a Turban as no matter what you say, religion will come into it. Instead of seeing a non-denominational Garda, I will see A Garda wearing a Turban which is different. I am not saying they will be in anyway representing their religious beliefs but still once the Turban is there, they are coming to me as a Sikh.

    Also we have heard much talk about Muslims. I can imagine that a Muslim residing in this country might be offended if a Garda was to come to their aide wearing a Turban.

    Again it goes down to issues of discrimination etc which we hear about quite a lot whether it is travellers, black people, gays etc. And the basic point as far as I can see it, is that if we are to treat all men and women equally, then all must abide by the rules which have been set by a democratically originated Garda force and there must be no exceptions. Otherwise the Garda rule book will say something like "All Gardai must adhere to uniform guidelines and represent themselves to the public in a secular and non-denominational fashion to the public at large. Except of course if you are a Sikh coz then its ok. And I guess maybe a Muslim too.........."


  • #26
    Flying
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Flying


    PoleStar wrote:
    I feel exactly the same, that we must welcome integration. However interestingly the conclusion I arrive at is to ensure integration, we must ensure that they follow the rules of the Gardai i.e. follow the rules about uniforms.

    I as an atheist would personally be offended by a Garda coming to my aid wearing a Turban as no matter what you say, religion will come into it. Instead of seeing a non-denominational Garda, I will see A Garda wearing a Turban which is different. I am not saying they will be in anyway representing their religious beliefs but still once the Turban is there, they are coming to me as a Sikh.

    Also we have heard much talk about Muslims. I can imagine that a Muslim residing in this country might be offended if a Garda was to come to their aide wearing a Turban.

    Again it goes down to issues of discrimination etc which we hear about quite a lot whether it is travellers, black people, gays etc. And the basic point as far as I can see it, is that if we are to treat all men and women equally, then all must abide by the rules which have been set by a democratically originated Garda force and there must be no exceptions. Otherwise the Garda rule book will say something like "All Gardai must adhere to uniform guidelines and represent themselves to the public in a secular and non-denominational fashion to the public at large. Except of course if you are a Sikh coz then its ok. And I guess maybe a Muslim too.........."



    Could'nt agree more, but also fair play to the Sikh who is chosing to intergrate with Irish Society unlike the hundred of thousands on "Immigrants" to Ireland who chose not to hence causing resentment and a lack of trust amongst the actual Irish people who generally think these people are asset strippers more than helping to broaden and make society more cultural.


  • #27
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    mickoneill30 wrote:
    What's the law in the UK regarding hard hats on construction sites. Are Sikhs exempt from having to wear those or do they have modified hard hats, or do they just not work on construction sites? If it's changed for a Gards uniform it'll have to be applied to everything won't it? What about motorbike helmets? Do they use special helmets? What about anything else? If they go, go karting are they allowed not use a helmet?

    Uk has recognised the sikhs's right to wear turban. Sikhs are exampted from wearing motor cycles helmets, and also from hard hat on construction sites. so why people are making fuss about this in ireland.


  • #28
    mickoneill30
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    fairdeal wrote:
    Uk has recognised the sikhs's right to wear turban. Sikhs are exampted from wearing motor cycles helmets, and also from hard hat on construction sites. so why people are making fuss about this in ireland.

    Does that mean their insurance premiums go up? If a Sikh has a head injury on a work site in the UK is he exempt from compensation?


  • #29
    Reku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    fairdeal wrote:
    Uk has recognised the sikhs's right to wear turban. Sikhs are exampted from wearing motor cycles helmets, and also from hard hat on construction sites. so why people are making fuss about this in ireland.
    Which genuinely does render any arguements of the hijab/burka being impractical moot. As such if they allow one they must also state that the other will also be allowed, and the same for any religious paraphenalia relating to the religion which the person claims to follow.
    I have no problem with such but I just know that such equality between religions will not happen and instead a favourtism of religions will be shown and this is why I am against making a special allowence here.


  • #30
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    Flying wrote:
    I am in the Garda reserve and the turban is bascially not operationally viable.

    Also it is not part of the uniform, hence it should not be worn, there are rules and regulations and they cannot and will not be changed for a very small minority.

    Also in a riot situtation do you have turban shaped helmets, motorcycle cops with Turbans etc etc

    This is Ireland not the UK and we do not have to change or be polticially correct to please the miniority.

    This is not racist this is simply a fact, if the person is treated correctly and the same as everyone else apart from the head gear issue there should be no issue.

    I am all for equality for all but in the forces weither it be the army or police, uniform should not be changed ever.

    can u elaborate further turban is not operationally viable? has to tried wearing it? if hat can be operationally viable then what stops turban from being operationally viable? be less judgemental

    I think there was no need earlier to include turban in uniform if there were no sikhs. Sikhs are part of irish society, so the need for inclusion of turban.

    About riots situation? Is UK is immune from riots? Uk police must have considered all the practicallities before including turban in the uniform

    How ireland is different from Uk? does ireland is not demoractice nation, or has no respect for its people' human rights. you said you are no racist, but as the same time you don't want to recognise a communities right, b'cose it happens to be in minority. i really doubt what else make us racist. We all are for equality but don't want to change anything......fair enough!


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  • #31
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    mickoneill30 wrote:
    Does that mean their insurance premiums go up? If a Sikh has a head injury on a work site in the UK is he exempt from compensation?

    S11 of the Employment Act 1989 exempts turban-wearing Sikhs from any requirements to wear safety helmets on a construction site. Where a turban-wearing Sikh is injured on a construction site liability for injuries is restricted to the injuries that would have been sustained if the Sikh had been wearing a safety helmet.

    Riding Motor Cycles

    Sikhs who wear Turbans need not wear crash helmets when they ride Motor Cycles or Scooters. They have been allowed to wear Turban as their only headgear. In accordance with the Motor-Cycle Crash Helmets (Religious Exemption) Act 1976 passed by the British Parliament in 1976, Section 2A "exempts any follower of the Sikh religion while he is wearing a turban" from having to wear a crash helmet.


    hope it is helpful


  • #32
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Wow. Two of the most idiotic pieces of legislation I've ever seen. I'm surprised they're British.


  • #33
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    I came across few links. hope it would be helpful to understand sikhs and their role in armed forces. this link has some picture at the bottom, scroll down and have a look

    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Sikhs.html

    http://www.info-sikh.com/FFPage1.html

    Sikh in British Army
    http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/FirstTriserviceSikhConferenceTakesPlace.htm

    Sikh in Canadian Mounties (Royal Canadian Mounted Police or RCMP)
    http://www.sikhchic.com/cms/articles/photo1/Baltej-Studio2.jpg

    sikh working in FBI in America....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDUL8KdyDXA

    offcourse UK, Canada, India, has very big countries, people must have reacted the same as we in ireland are reacting, still they recognised the turban. what evidence ireland need to see the point.


  • #34
    fairdeal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭fairdeal


    seamus wrote:
    Wow. Two of the most idiotic pieces of legislation I've ever seen. I'm surprised they're British.


    Legislation is not idiotic, but representative of it's citizens. Need to wake up, world is not the same, all the countries are become more diverse. if we don't know something, it doesn't mean it is not true or valid.


  • #35
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I think you're missing the point here. Just because other countries do this, that's not a valid reason for Ireland to do it.

    I would also argue that legislation is representative of the politician who thinks it will keep him in power. There are many pieces of legislation in place across the world which aren't there because the citizens want them there.


  • #36
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    harpreetsk wrote:
    we need to make a clear distinction between a Sikh turban and issues about muslim integration. Sikhs have encountered no problems integrating in many countries around the world. We would not like to see an irrational approach to discussions with sikhs due to issues with muslims.
    Yet it is somehow rational to rest your argument on the generalisation that Sikhs are good integrators so they should be allowed wear the turban, yet Muslims are bad integrators so they should be made conform?
    That is the kind of garbage that discourages integration with Muslims, and to be honest it's a little offensive too. Of course it's also totally contradictory - because if Sikhs are such good integrators, then taking off the Turban shouldn't be a problem, should it?
    By the way, my only problem is with that line of logic. In fact, a Sikh wearing his turban is fine by me. Maybe the people who are imagining some issue with mobility or something ought to consider the physical health and fitness of the force in general.


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  • #37
    donaghs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Just in relation to what the UK are doing, I think its fair to say that the first stage of their multicultural experiment is over. It was a well-intentioned idea that all people should be allowed live their lives according to their beliefs and cultures. This unfortunately only works when all people are prepared to be tolerant, respectful and peaceful towards others, and make an effort to integrate into the host society.

    The down-side of this is shown in an episode like the Salman Rushdie/Satanic Versus affair. Rushdie, as a writer, wanted to express himself through his novel. Many Muslims were deeply offended by his novel, and felt it should be banned or he should be killed. The are endless examples of deeply conflicting views held by various groups and individuals in our society.

    The UK nows appears to be moving in the direction of more "integration"-orientated policies. These are all vague terms of course.

    Historically also, the British hired lots of Sikhs in their Army (and in police roles), and respected more than other Indian "races" because of this (see the old British views on the martial races).

    In terms of Canada, its true they are sticking to the multicultural course. But if you look at Quebec, they have been deeply suspicious of this policy, believing it could destroy their unique culture. Instead they have a more integration orientated policy called intraculturalism.

    So going back to the Gara Reserve, the best way to have equality is to have a common uniform that exclude religious identity. The Sikh turban in itself is not offensive but exceptions should not be made, especially in relation to a State body responsible for proctecting all people in Ireland.


  • #38
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    fairdeal wrote:
    Legislation is not idiotic, but representative of it's citizens. Need to wake up, world is not the same, all the countries are become more diverse. if we don't know something, it doesn't mean it is not true or valid.

    It is idiotic.

    Is a Sikh not going to be injured if he falls off his motorbike at 40mph and isn't wearing a helmet?

    Is a Sikh not going to be injured if a hammer falls 50 feet and smacks him on the head and he isn't wearing a hard hat?

    These laws completely miss the point of why the original laws are there in the first place. There is nothing about being a Sikh that adds extra protect to any of these things. There is nothing that makes them immune from the dangers that these laws were originally enacted to protect people from.

    If a Sikh can just go "oh well I don't want to wear the helmet" why can't everyone do that? What is the purpose of the original law then?

    The legislation is basically say that if you have a "good reason" (they obviously considered religion a good reason) you can act in a irresponsible fashion that others are not allowed act in for their own protection.

    Nonsense.


  • #39
    Voodu Child
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,706 ✭✭✭Voodu Child


    These Sikhs are 'demanding' we respect their culture and religious symbols, but they don't seem to give a damn that a Garda uniform (or any other police/military uniform) is also a symbol of the job and the organisation, which equally demands respect. Seems pretty hypocritical and full of self importance tbh.

    In any civilised society, the requirements of the job they are performing should quite obviously take precedent over any personal beliefs. Hence, if you want to be a member of the Gardai or Garda reserve, wear the bloody uniform and STFU.


  • #40
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    voodoo_child wrote:
    These Sikhs are 'demanding' we respect their culture and religious symbols, but they don't seem to give a damn that a Garda uniform (or any other police/military uniform) is also a symbol of the job and the organisation, which equally demands respect. Seems pretty hypocritical and full of self importance tbh.

    Don't normally agree with you Voodoo, but it seems that all the fuss about this is being made by the Sikhs themselves, as you say

    According to the Irish Times the Sikh Council of Ireland has said it is unreasonable for people to make them remove their turban. And they are right, it is. But then no one is asking them to remove it.

    As far as I can tell number of Sikhs applied to join the Garda reserves and were told that this is the uniform and you will have to wear it (same as everyone else).

    They refused on religious grounds, which is again their right to do.

    But then they don't join the Reserves. End of story. The uniform is what it is. I've no problem with anyone where what they want. I've no problem with Sikh's wear a turban at work. I've no problem with a Muslim woman teaching in a full burka. But when a job has an offical uniform then the uniform should be worn. If you refuse to wear the uniform don't take the job.


  • #41
    Flying
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Flying


    fairdeal wrote:
    Legislation is not idiotic, but representative of it's citizens. Need to wake up, world is not the same, all the countries are become more diverse. if we don't know something, it doesn't mean it is not true or valid.


    It is dangerous, Safety before Religion methinks.. A turban wont stop debris from damaging you nor will it safe your head on impact from coming off a Motorcycle.

    It is not operationally viable for the simple reason it is not part of uniform.

    Oh and I was also in the British Army and although Sikhs can wear a turban for barrack duties they have to wear a helmet for operational duties if they refuse they are charged. Again it is a safety issue and also the regulations.

    Armies and Police forces are not there to represent religion.


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  • #42
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,980 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Thaedydal wrote:
    The garda symbol is bases of a celtic or solar cross.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross

    Sikhs have to wear thier turbans or else they are not Sikhs and there has to be a certain ammount of flexiblity tbh.

    so presumably you would have no problem with a rasta' being allowed to keep his dreads while he served on this force.


  • #43
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    When I was living in London I worked with a couple of Seikhs, one wore the full turban and one wore a smaller version that allowed him to wear a motorcycle helmet over it. I don't see why this chap couldn't do the same & wear the garda cap?


  • #44
    psicic
    Registered Users Posts: 987 ✭✭✭psicic


    Flying wrote:
    Armies and Police forces are not there to represent religion.

    Very astute. This point is lost on a lot of people, and is one of the paradoxes of a democracy. Many people, who may be well meaning, lack clarity over the role and function of these organs of the state and fail to realise what is desirable in society as a whole becomes mere political sophistry in structures like the army and police.

    People also point to the practices of foreign police forces and armies failing to realise how different they are in other countries, what role they play in those societies and how differently communities perceive them. These are at the root of choices those countries made.

    However, cushtac raises an interesting point - would a smaller turban that allowed them to wear the cap not suffice to meet both uniform requirements and their personal religious convictions?


  • #45
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    fairdeal wrote:
    S11 of the Employment Act 1989 exempts turban-wearing Sikhs from any requirements to wear safety helmets on a construction site. Where a turban-wearing Sikh is injured on a construction site liability for injuries is restricted to the injuries that would have been sustained if the Sikh had been wearing a safety helmet.

    Riding Motor Cycles

    Sikhs who wear Turbans need not wear crash helmets when they ride Motor Cycles or Scooters. They have been allowed to wear Turban as their only headgear. In accordance with the Motor-Cycle Crash Helmets (Religious Exemption) Act 1976 passed by the British Parliament in 1976, Section 2A "exempts any follower of the Sikh religion while he is wearing a turban" from having to wear a crash helmet.


    hope it is helpful

    Good science, that is shocking. If someone told me that without a source I wouldn't believe them.

    I'd draw the line there certainly, & I wouldn't allow a Niqaab for a police officer but I don't see the problem with a cop wearing one.


  • #46
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Let him wear his turban FFS.

    This "Argument" is too ridiculous for words.

    anyone who is offended by a turban in the 21st century is too uptight to be left out of the asylum.

    Conor Lenihan is an utter gob****e.


  • #47
    mickoneill30
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    Snickers Man wrote:
    anyone who is offended by a turban in the 21st century is too uptight to be left out of the asylum.

    The issue isn't that people are offended by a turban. Nobody here has said that. Have you bothered reading the posts.
    The issue is about changing a uniform (look up the definition of the word uniform) of a police force of a secular country to suit a religion (what the religion is, is secondary)


  • #48
    saabi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭saabi


    I am quite embarrassed and shocked at our close mindedness.

    When we want the American to respect our culture, religious and political beliefs, we adapt all political and personal influence to represent our views. Whether that is in get Paddy’s Day celebrated or getting the illegal Irish legalised.

    But when the problem comes to our door step, suddenly we become very protective of our cultural and religious beliefs.

    We are all living in modern in Ireland, and can be proud of our achievement and strive further to help this nation of ours.

    Weather a Garda is wearing a Turban or a Hat with the Garda badge, the test of his/her integrity is not his uniform but work they do.

    If the guy is living working as an IT consultant in this country, he is more than likely a citizen of the nation.

    Additionally, if one looks into the history Sikhs they are generally speaking, people of high integrity and loyalty. As they have served in the Second World War with the allies in France, England and other nations (All while wearing turbans).

    As for scumbags, they will find any and all means to insult and get back at people trying to hold the peace in a country. Hence, they are called scumbags.

    Keep and open mind, if we are to have religious or cultural symbolism neutral force. Then maybe the Garda force badge should be redesigned. “But why should we, as it is our Celtic identity.” Then why should be ask some to part form his/her identity.

    Remember Ignorance Breeds Contempt!


    Here are some links that I found:


    United Nations:

    http://www.bcsikhyouth.com/2006/sikhs-in-unifil-praised-for-helping-enforce-ceasefire-in-lebanon/

    Pakistan:

    http://pakistaniat.com/2007/05/02/pakistan-sikh-khalsa-police-officer-gulab-singh-shaheen-traffic-celebrity/

    http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/7636/pmsikhcadet8jr.jpg


    Canada: Royal Canadian Mountain Police

    http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-73-614-3302-10/on_this_day/politics_economy/sikh_mounties_turban

    http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=122&cat=8


    ========
    Don't know which state in US.

    http://www.sikhmediawatch.org/images/nonSMART/Jagjit_Singh.jpg

    http://www.sikhpioneers.org/Sikh%20American.html

    http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2007&m=April&x=200704041400501EJrehsiF0.5559961

    http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/news.nsf/NewsArchive/E4F08791ADAF7DF38725725E0069C994


    England:

    http://www.warwickshire.police.uk/Diversity/Policingourcommunities/Sikhs


    WWII:
    http://www.nwha.org/news_4Q2002/news_page12.html


    Turban as seen by some:
    http://www.amarsinghkhalsa.com/newsTurban.htm22


  • #49
    yayamark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭yayamark


    When u come to our country u learn and respect our values and cultures. u dont try and change them. if u have a problem with how our country operates please leave. I fu want to join an organisation u abide by there rules again u dont try and change them.

    Before any one jumps on there high horse. i respect other religion and beliefs. i just dont like when they try and change our way of doin things


  • #50
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    saabi wrote:
    I am quite embarrassed and shocked at our close mindedness.
    No it's not, it's safety and simple common sense.

    When I played cricket with two Sikh lads, both swapped their bulky turbans for a simpler patka. The patka covers the head and allows helmets/caps/hats to be worn with very little discomfort.

    There might be an argument for allowing a Sikh to wear a turban on a regular police beat. However, not wearing helmets on building sites, when riding bikes or participated in the armed forces completely ridiculous.


  • #51
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I don't see why adherents of a certain religion can't wear symbols of their faith alongside their work uniform. Is the issue about it "not being secular enough" aka not allowing people to wear it as others don't like it or is it a real safety concern?


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