"god-given talent"

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 3:02pm #1

i hate when people say that.
My own mother used that phrase about my propensity to draw, paint and sculpt.
After attending a rigorous art college I learned that it is rubbish, that phrase; and that anyone (and i do mean anyone) can be taught to draw, paint and sculpt.
It may be true that it comes easier to some.

Where do you think that phrase comes from?
Why do people say it, in regards to art?

humbert · 06-06-2006 3:31pm

I don't like to sound cynical but it seems to me that you want to be praised for being naturally gifted because you've pretty much answered your question in your post.

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 3:50pm

No i don't think you've understood the post at all.
What i am saying, is that there is nothing special about doing "art".
I personally resent having been told things in my youth which influenced me to believe that doing "art" was some sort of "god-given" talent.
And what i'm asking is:
Why do folks seem to believe that the ability to scribe lines on a piece of paper means it's a "god given talent".
Where does THAT come from?

Hobbes · 06-06-2006 4:10pm

RedPlanet wrote:

After attending a rigorous art college I learned that it is rubbish, that phrase; and that anyone (and i do mean anyone) can be taught to draw, paint and sculpt.
It may be true that it comes easier to some.

I used to think this about computers because I found them very easy to use but the truth of it is there are people who can never be taught certain skills and there are some who will excell at it even without teaching.

there is also a large amount of people who can be taught but have no real *skill* as such in the area.

Applies to everything. If it didn't the world would be full of art and American Idol wouldn't be painful to watch.

Earthhorse · 06-06-2006 4:20pm

I think it's just that some people, who maybe don't have a talent for anything, or rather never developed their natural talents, like to dismiss anyone talented as just sort of lucky. They never want to admit that hours and hours - I mean hundred and thousands of them - go into refining a talent to the point where it seems second nature.

The simple fact is that if you invest time in something you will get better at it. That's true of almost anyone though it's also true to say that some are starting from a better position than others.

Rev Hellfire · 06-06-2006 4:20pm

Lets see if we can tease out this intellectual conundrum.
‘god given ability’, I’m going to work on the basis that clue is in the phrase. It’s like they are trying to say some ‘god’ has gifted someone with an above average ability at a given task.

As to why is this phrase used solely with connection to art, I'm not sure. Its time for the wikipedia.

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 4:21pm

That's a different debate Hobbes.
What i am trying to get at, is that there are people in all walks of life in Western society (parents, teachers, priests, laymen). That believe that if someone draws well, that that means it's a "god-given talent", or is some special sort of talent.
People use that very phrase sometimes: "god-given" then "talent" or "gift".
Maybe not solely regards doing art, but ive never heard that phrase applicable to computing.
And i'm wondering why (some) people think in such grandiose terms about something so trivial (art)?

Personally i wish i hadn't been propagandanised by these people and have challenged my parents on their parenting decisions.

6th · 06-06-2006 4:29pm

I kind of get what you are saying. I studied fine art myself, majoring in sculpture.

I hated the elitism of artists and their snobbery and looking down their noses at "sunday painters". I do believe that anyone can get great enjoyment out of art - no matter what the skill level.

However i dont believe that everyone can get to the same level with the same amount of practice. There are people out there with natural abilities be it art or as some see it in the paranormal forum being "psychic".

Fact is we are not all equal, but should we have to be?

Sounds like your problem might be with these people suggesting that god is involved? and if thats your problem surely everyone is intitled to their beliefs?

Praise is a very important thing for a developing child so if you think it was wrong for your parents to praise you in the way they did well then is your problem them forcing their beliefs on you?

Your posts are not very clear as can be seen by peoples responses, if you simple want to know the origins of the phrase well just ask.

yaledo · 06-06-2006 4:31pm

Given the same training & practice, some people are better at football/painting/lawnmowing/mathematics/driving/juggling than others. Personally, I would refer to this as 'innate' rather than 'god-given'.

If you can spot a particular talent of a young person, and nurture it in them, then you can them the opportunity to make the most of a gift that other people will never have. Some people achieve a high level quite easily and then find it hard to build on that, some people find it hard to get to level one, and then when they have persevered at mastering the basic skills, they can then surpass all around them.

RedPlanet, do you think that this is inaccurate, do you think that everyone has the same innate capacity to learn things like the list above?

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 4:31pm

It probably goes way back.
To Renaisance times, maybe when a young fella might be considered for apprenticeship, to be chosen (by the Church) to learn from "the Masters".
To find themselves (if they count their lucky stars) a slave of the Church.

And for some reason parents and teachers to this day, still maintain this Church inspired propagandan.

That's my guess.

I suppose other pursuits (footballing, driving, juggling) are industries the old "Church" hasn't got it's hooks into. And that's why they are not referred to as "god-given" talents or what have you.

6th · 06-06-2006 4:31pm

Critisizing your parents doesnt sound very grateful or respectful but i'm glad for any children that you might have that you are so perfect.

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 4:36pm

6th wrote:

Critisizing your parents doesnt sound very grateful or respectful but i'm glad for any children that you might have that you are so perfect.

Really?
Well, walk a mile in my shoes...

6th · 06-06-2006 4:50pm

what does that even mean?

It doesnt sound very grateful on the face of it - and thats what i base my response on. If you think we need to know the full facts before making a comment well then give all the details or expect people to post based on what they know.

I really think you need to get a pen and paper and write stuff down before you post.

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 5:12pm

If you find my posts confusing, then you can simply ignore them, or if you wish to engage the conversation you can post someting seeking clarification, alternately you could PM me, however i may be inclined to ignore that.
Anyway, I thought my original post was clear enough.
In my opinion sometimes there are those whom prefer to guess about the poster, or the posters motives, rather than the content of the post. And i thing you're one of them.

When you said "Critisizing your parents doesnt sound very grateful..."
You've made some generalisations there since i did not use the word "criticize" in the post you responded to.
I said "i challenged my parents about thier parenting decisions".
Which is not necessarily the same.
You made a big generalisation when you said: "Praise is a very important thing for a developing child so if you think it was wrong for your parents to praise you....".
You've presumed that (my parents) using the phraselogy "god-given talent" in leiu of my art, equals praise.
But in fact it wasn't, it was responsibilty rather than praise.
I had a responsibilty, bestowed on me by god apparently, to do "art".

But this besides the point.
I was trying to figure out why people think drawing well equals "god given talent" and i can only guess it has something to do with the Church and for some reason parents and teachers still subscribe to it.

In fact, the answer i got from my mother (about influencing me toward art) when i challenged her, was because .. "well, some of the teachers said...." and "Father ... said....".

Better inject a little point here:
* Praising children is all well and good, but parents should beware that they might also prejudice their children negatively for example: repeatedly telling a child he's got a god-given ability to play football, may prejuidce him against other activities.

constitutionus · 06-06-2006 7:37pm

RedPlanet wrote:

i hate when people say that.
My own mother used that phrase about my propensity to draw, paint and sculpt.
After attending a rigorous art college I learned that it is rubbish, that phrase; and that anyone (and i do mean anyone) can be taught to draw, paint and sculpt.
It may be true that it comes easier to some.

Where do you think that phrase comes from?
Why do people say it, in regards to art?

because there are people in this world who are adepts and savants. simple as that. no training what so ever and can draw the entire london skyline from flying over it once in a plane.

humbert · 06-06-2006 7:46pm

I really don't see why this is giving you so much difficulty, god given talent is just an archaic phrase which means that you have a natural ability in a particular area, in your case it is art, some people of a logical persuasion have a natural ability in math’s or some associated area other people may find a particular sport very easy to pick up. In some circles there is a prestige about art and coupled with the fact that some people can, without tutoring, draw, paint, sculpt much better than others make this natural ability more conspicuous. I don’t know if your parents have told you this gift has been given to you by god, if so that’s a whole different kettle of fish. To be honest I don’t find that this phrase is more associated with art than other areas, it is simply associated with areas where natural ability is a significant advantage.

walshb · 06-06-2006 8:34pm

humbert wrote:

I really don't see why this is giving you so much difficulty, god given talent is just an archaic phrase which means that you have a natural ability in a particular area, in your case it is art, some people of a logical persuasion have a natural ability in math’s or some associated area other people may find a particular sport very easy to pick up. In some circles there is a prestige about art and coupled with the fact that some people can, without tutoring, draw, paint, sculpt much better than others make this natural ability more conspicuous. I don’t know if your parents have told you this gift has been given to you by god, if so that’s a whole different kettle of fish. To be honest I don’t find that this phrase is more associated with art than other areas, it is simply associated with areas where natural ability is a significant advantage.

Spot ON!!!

RedPlanet · 06-06-2006 8:56pm

humbert wrote:

I really don't see why this is giving you so much difficulty, god given talent is just an archaic phrase which means that you have a natural ability in a particular area, in your case it is art, some people of a logical persuasion have a natural ability in math’s or some associated area other people may find a particular sport very easy to pick up. In some circles there is a prestige about art and coupled with the fact that some people can, without tutoring, draw, paint, sculpt much better than others make this natural ability more conspicuous. I don’t know if your parents have told you this gift has been given to you by god, if so that’s a whole different kettle of fish. To be honest I don’t find that this phrase is more associated with art than other areas, it is simply associated with areas where natural ability is a significant advantage.

Yeah i can accept that. Just in my perspective i've always heard the phrase spoken in regards to art, rather than other activities (not activities that i do)
Maybe i'm wrong about that, but it just seems to me, to be a phrase one generally hears regarding art.
Maybe it's commonplace to be said of other activities too, that would be news to me.

walshb · 06-06-2006 9:53pm

RedPlanet wrote:

Yeah i can accept that. Just in my perspective i've always heard the phrase spoken in regards to art, rather than other activities (not activities that i do)
Maybe i'm wrong about that, but it just seems to me, to be a phrase one generally hears regarding art.
Maybe it's commonplace to be said of other activities too, that would be news to me.

It's one of the most common phrases around and most definitely applies to other areas, notably sports. Ali, Pele, Maradona, Jordan were all born with an innate skill and talent. Sure they developed it and improved it, but it has to be there to begin with and no matter how much some people train and practice, they may never excel in say Art or Math or Boxing or Music because they do not have the natural talent and Flare

Cantab. · 06-06-2006 10:58pm

Sure if you believe that God created the world (including man), then why wouldn't you say that someone has "God-given talent"?!

अधिनायक · 07-06-2006 12:03am

Most people would take this phrase as a compliment. That you take it as derogatory says something about your relationship with your parents - either they have criticised you so much that you are suspicious that any positive comment they make is back-handed, or else they are so mean with their praise that it is actually back-handed.

Lazy or resentful people like to ascribe success in others to god-given talents as it makes them feel better about themselves. My experience is that hard work and a minimum level of ability usually beats innate talent - to the dismay of the people who found it easy at first and felt they didn't have to work. In college, the people who did best were those who worked hardest.

And you're right that you can succeed in the arts through hard work and that this area is particularly prone to the god-given talent myth.

Some successful people like to claim that they are innately talented rather than just plain hard working - and even go to some lengths to make out that everything came easy to them. I knew at least one person in college who would secretly study and then ask people to go out for drinks shortly before exams to convey the impression that study was for the untalented. Being gifted is far more sexy than being a workaholic.

Paganini circulated a similar rumour - that he was inspired by the Devil - to attract an audience.

The following is a not altogether serious quote from JB Watson

Give me a dozen healthy infants, well-formed, and my own specified world to bring them up in and I'll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select – doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant-chief and, yes, even beggar-man and thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations, and race of his ancestors. I am going beyond my facts and I admit it, but so have the advocates of the contrary and they have been doing it for many thousands of years.

elivsvonchiaing · 07-06-2006 12:22am

I felt the same way as RedPlanet many years ago.

My reason was this: I got this praise from my parents only to ascend into a state of false-confidence: which was shattered when I saw other people clearly more talented than me.

I worked out that I needed to accept this; move on and find my own talents which I have never exhibited to my parents. There is now so much they don't know about me - but that is part of growing up. They don't know it because I don't trust them with this knowledge.

My friends know me best.

This may sound a bit f**ked up, but I see it as normal as their values will never match mine.

6th · 07-06-2006 12:45pm

Should people only praise the absolute best or should people get praised for just being very good?

My daughter is nearly two and loves to sing songs. She gets the words wrong and goes off tune, I'm sure there are other kids that are better at her age but does that mean i should tell my little star thats she's the best in the world.

I think posters who are parents themselves will see things differently than those who aren't.

And dont get defensive i'm not saying people with kids are better or anything like that, just that you see things differently when you have a child.

अधिनायक · 07-06-2006 12:56pm

Tell her that you love her unconditionally but don't lie about her progress for her age, otherwise you remove the incentive to improve and be the best she can be. You hold her back. Small kids aren't expected to sing in tune but if she were 16 and singing all day off-key, it would be unfair to her to dishonestly tell her she had a great voice.

elivsvonchiaing · 08-06-2006 12:29am

6th wrote:

I think posters who are parents themselves will see things differently than those who aren't.

And dont get defensive i'm not saying people with kids are better or anything like that, just that you see things differently when you have a child.

Have to agree.

Still have nightmare as to what rules to apply and how to enforce them without fu-barring kid psychologically.

Right now - no plan for kids in next 5 years.

That said. I really believe parental intent is completly marred by a generation gap.

Parents need to accept that their values may not be inherited by their children.

As a non-parent and observer I think that any parent that reads a child psychology book; that doesn't recognise that the ethos of the book is based upon the author's ****ed-up childhood should get a grip.

A 5 year old needs self esteem. A 10 y/o likewise - an 18 y/o needs to move out (maybe). However, any book that delivers power to a child < 16 - the author's childhood needs to be looked at! seriously!

...I'm not going to dilute this... would rather be banned!

Li'l Irish · 11-06-2006 1:01am

I understand. I'm an artist myself and while I don't hear the exact phrase 'god-given talent', what I usually hear is: 'You're so lucky to have that talent' 'You were so lucky to be given that gift' 'You have such luck . . .' etc. etc.

Luck has very little to do with it. The fact that I've been practicing and improving for 22 years is a little more on the nose. Yes, it annoys me when people say it's luck or talent. It's countless hours of hard work is what it is. Maybe I had a greater capacity for drawing than my peers, but it's not like I sat back and just drew photo-perfect portraits at age five, then picked it up whenever I felt like it. I've worked at this and it irritates me when people write off my contribution as luck or 'gifts'. Gifts get given to you free of charge. They require no investment.

gardenlily · 12-06-2006 7:02am

RedPlanet wrote:

i hate when people say that.
My own mother used that phrase about my propensity to draw, paint and sculpt.
After attending a rigorous art college I learned that it is rubbish, that phrase; and that anyone (and i do mean anyone) can be taught to draw, paint and sculpt.
It may be true that it comes easier to some.

Where do you think that phrase comes from?
Why do people say it, in regards to art?

because no matter how i tried to learn how to paint or do art

i will never learn..

Samos · 15-06-2006 6:45pm

I think the OP is annoyed that his/her investment in time and effort to develop artistic skills was dismissed as a "gift" or "luck", and I would agree that this seems insulting, and that it implies that some people may not be able to develop that particular skill. I think that anyone can be as good as they want at something (so long as they are physically capable), and praising someone about their "god-given talent" is not an encouraging phrase and gives an excuse to those who are not persistent enough to achieve a similar level of ability. People should be praised for what they have achieved, not who they happen to be.

"god-given talent"

Comments