Extending a site, to solve a problem.

MDR · 13-05-2021 5:40pm #1

Hi folks,

We bought an old house on 1/2 an arce and renovated it a few years back.

We are surrounded by poor-quality farm land, that is used very little and left more or less fallow. One side is particularly bad with huge patches covered with knots of briars and the like, and I need to regularly stop them from encroaching into my garden. I have very little room (perhaps 1meter), between the house and the fence on that side.

I could approach the farmer, who I know and ask him from permission to tidy this up a bit - and I doubt there would be problem, he is very easy going, it is part time thing for him. I was also thinking a better solution would be to buy roughly a 1/3 of acre off him and push back the site boundary a bit at the same time. So that any briars that do encroach in future, won't be so close to the air-2-water intake and like.

The 1/3 of an acre I would be buying is literally all briars. Is buying a 1/3 of an acre of non-road frontage land a big deal? Who would need to be involved surveyors, land registry, solicitors ????

Ray K

13-05-2021 8:56pm

MDR wrote: »

Hi folks,

We bought an old house on 1/2 an arce and renovated it a few years back.

We are surrounded by poor-quality farm land, that is used very little and left more or less fallow. One side is particularly bad with huge patches covered with knots of briars and the like, and I need to regularly stop them from encroaching into my garden. I have very little room (perhaps 1meter), between the house and the fence on that side.

I could approach the farmer, who I know and ask him from permission to tidy this up a bit - and I doubt there would be problem, he is very easy going, it is part time thing for him. I was also thinking a better solution would be to buy roughly a 1/3 of acre off him and push back the site boundary a bit at the same time. So that any briars that do encroach in future, won't be so close to the air-2-water intake and like.

The 1/3 of an acre I would be buying is literally all briars. Is buying a 1/3 of an acre of non-road frontage land a big deal? Who would need to be involved surveyors, land registry, solicitors ????

Ray K

Might depend if the ground has any area aid payments or the likes as it stands to the farmer. If none and no special value like access or sale of future site... I’ll start the ball rolling at €2.5k into his pocket plus covering of any incurred fees for him. €2k. So cost you €4.5k to €5k in all to buy the ground.

Interested to see what sort of money others think for this situation.

Dunedin · 13-05-2021 9:10pm

49801 wrote: »

Might depend if the ground has any area aid payments or the likes as it stands to the farmer. If none and no special value like access or sale of future site... I’ll start the ball rolling at €2.5k into his pocket plus covering of any incurred fees for him. €2k. So cost you €4.5k to €5k in all to buy the ground.

Interested to see what sort of money others think for this situation.

That’s €7.5 an acre for ground that’s growing briars and no road frontage. Seems a lot. I’d be thinking €1 or €1.5k Would fees be €2k????

13-05-2021 9:20pm

Dunedin wrote: »

That’s €7.5 an acre for ground that’s growing briars and no road frontage. Seems a lot. I’d be thinking €1 or €1.5k Would fees be €2k????

Think there needs to be two solicitors, could be in or around 7/800 each, then stamp duty maybe 7%, and land registry fee is €400. That's without any engineer mapping it out. It adds up.

148multi · 13-05-2021 10:12pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Think there needs to be two solicitors, could be in or around 7/800 each, then stamp duty maybe 7%, and land registry fee is €400. That's without any engineer mapping it out. It adds up.

Would definitely need a engineer, a good one.

Donald Trump · 13-05-2021 10:20pm

I wouldn't sell land that cheaply to someone just because they asked me for it. Not unless I had wanted to sell it anyway. Briars or no briars it's part of his farm and once it's gone it won't be gotten back

893bet · 13-05-2021 10:56pm

Dunedin wrote: »

That’s €7.5 an acre for ground that’s growing briars and no road frontage. Seems a lot. I’d be thinking €1 or €1.5k Would fees be €2k????

It’s the only field with frontage to the house though.......if someone came to me and offered me 1k for 1/3 of an acre around their house I would laugh. If they only wanted a metre strip for it I would laugh.

14-05-2021 12:17am

893bet wrote: »

It’s the only field with frontage to the house though.......if someone came to me and offered me 1k for 1/3 of an acre around their house I would laugh. If they only wanted a metre strip for it I would laugh.

so what money would you want to get?

14-05-2021 12:19am

Donald Trump wrote: »

I wouldn't sell land that cheaply to someone just because they asked me for it. Not unless I had wanted to sell it anyway. Briars or no briars it's part of his farm and once it's gone it won't be gotten back

So what money to not make you laugh?

Donald Trump · 14-05-2021 12:25am

49801 wrote: »

So what money to not make you laugh?

Definitely not for 2.5k. That likely wouldn't even be what he'd get for agricultural land if he actually wanted to sell. What good is 2.5k for anything?

What would you accept for the Council to take a strip off your front garden to widen the road/street? 60 cent per square metre?

Good loser · 14-05-2021 1:45am

Maybe 1/4 acre would do. Offer 2k or 3k and pay all expenses. Better to bargain with solicitors - shop around when/if deal is agreed. My solr told me ( after the event) they had a minimum fee of €1,500. Bol**x to that. Solr does not have to be local.

Bass Reeves · 14-05-2021 1:59am

About 6-8 years ago on a cottage acre near me a couple paid 50k to buy a 1/4 acre so they would get planning on part of it besides one of there parents.

Now it's a flaking site and house looks well. If I was in your situation and forget about the briars or site value. Allowing for his costs 15k minimum it could cost you 2-4 times that if you really wanted it

bb12 · 14-05-2021 3:34am

plus the farmer would have to pay capital gains tax @ 33%. i reckon you'd have to offer 15-20k at a bare minimum to make him even consider it

wrangler · 14-05-2021 7:09am

MDR wrote: »

Hi folks,

We bought an old house on 1/2 an arce and renovated it a few years back.

We are surrounded by poor-quality farm land, that is used very little and left more or less fallow. One side is particularly bad with huge patches covered with knots of briars and the like, and I need to regularly stop them from encroaching into my garden. I have very little room (perhaps 1meter), between the house and the fence on that side.

I could approach the farmer, who I know and ask him from permission to tidy this up a bit - and I doubt there would be problem, he is very easy going, it is part time thing for him. I was also thinking a better solution would be to buy roughly a 1/3 of acre off him and push back the site boundary a bit at the same time. So that any briars that do encroach in future, won't be so close to the air-2-water intake and like.

The 1/3 of an acre I would be buying is literally all briars. Is buying a 1/3 of an acre of non-road frontage land a big deal? Who would need to be involved surveyors, land registry, solicitors ????

Ray K

Keep spraying the briars with Grazon Pro, you'll eventually kill them back, it really tames them.

Waffletraktor · 14-05-2021 7:23am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

About 6-8 years ago on a cottage acre near me a couple paid 50k to buy a 1/4 acre so they would get planning on part of it besides one of there parents.

Now it's a flaking site and house looks well. If I was in your situation and forget about the briars or site value. Allowing for his costs 15k minimum it could cost you 2-4 times that if you really wanted it

I was always under the impression the price is in line with what it would do to increase the value of the property.

secman · 14-05-2021 7:35am

Agri land could be 10 to 12k an acre but a site could cost you 40 to 50k for 1/2 an acre. Would've thought thst you checked out the prices for the area you are in so you could arrive ata reasonable proposal ?

cjpm · 14-05-2021 7:49am

If you offer the guy 1-2 K you risk offending him. If you really want it, approach him and say you’d be interested in a small strip if he’d be willing to sell and if ye could agree a reasonable price. Let him suggest a price. You could offer a bit less and say you’ll cover all his solicitor fees engineer etc.

cjpm · 14-05-2021 7:51am

And say that you’ll fence it. Your chances are better if the seller doesn’t have to put his hand in his own pocket.

_Brian · 14-05-2021 7:51am

MDR wrote: »

Hi folks,

We bought an old house on 1/2 an arce and renovated it a few years back.

We are surrounded by poor-quality farm land, that is used very little and left more or less fallow. One side is particularly bad with huge patches covered with knots of briars and the like, and I need to regularly stop them from encroaching into my garden. I have very little room (perhaps 1meter), between the house and the fence on that side.

I could approach the farmer, who I know and ask him from permission to tidy this up a bit - and I doubt there would be problem, he is very easy going, it is part time thing for him. I was also thinking a better solution would be to buy roughly a 1/3 of acre off him and push back the site boundary a bit at the same time. So that any briars that do encroach in future, won't be so close to the air-2-water intake and like.

The 1/3 of an acre I would be buying is literally all briars. Is buying a 1/3 of an acre of non-road frontage land a big deal? Who would need to be involved surveyors, land registry, solicitors ????

Ray K

Yiur not going to get site land at agricultural land prices and offering him that will definitely test the friendship.

Look at local site prices and pitch your pricing in line with that.

Don’t open the conversation with saying it’s just a patch of briars either, he could well be very happy with his patch of biodiversity habitat.

J.O. Farmer · 14-05-2021 8:47am

cjpm wrote: »

If you offer the guy 1-2 K you risk offending him. If you really want it, approach him and say you’d be interested in a small strip if he’d be willing to sell and if ye could agree a reasonable price. Let him suggest a price. You could offer a bit less and say you’ll cover all his solicitor fees engineer etc.

This would be the way to go, he might well take a couple of grand but if he thinks you're taking the piss he could add a 0 onto the end of what he'd take otherwise.

Bass Reeves · 14-05-2021 10:13am

I always think it amazing the way some think that if agri value is 10 or 12k / acre that people assume a farmers should be willing to sell an acre or less at argi related value

14-05-2021 10:17am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I always think it amazing the way some think that if agri value is 10 or 12k / acre that people assume a farmers should be willing to sell an acre or less at argi related value

The few acres I'm trying to buy at the moment are literally just bog, rock, and water. There's no method of interrogation that'd get me to say it to the current owners though.

14-05-2021 10:26am

Once transferred the land would form part of your site and would presumably increase the value of that, possibly by quite a bit.

I know it is essentially waste ground now and you want it for practical reasons, but I would be very wary of offering a low price for it.

Not sure how you would go about it.
Approach them to see if they are interested.
Get a valuation?
Value as agricultural vs value added to your property and split the difference with you incurring all the fencing etc costs.

The briars won't be going away, they'll still be next door.

MrMusician18 · 14-05-2021 10:30am

secman wrote: »

Agri land could be 10 to 12k an acre but a site could cost you 40 to 50k for 1/2 an acre. Would've thought thst you checked out the prices for the area you are in so you could arrive ata reasonable proposal ?

Marginal agricultural land is not €12k an acre. More like €3k. This land sounds a lot more marginal than prime.

893bet · 14-05-2021 10:32am

It’s a case of supply and demand.

Supply is very low. There is only one possible seller of the piece of land. No other land will do.

Demand may be high or low. And it seems high. As there is only one possible buyer that can use the land and that possible buyer is interested.

I think it would need to be in the region if 10-12k minimum for the 1/3 of an acre to make it worth the hassle.

893bet · 14-05-2021 10:33am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Marginal agricultural land is not €12k an acre. More like €3k. This land sounds a lot more marginal than prime.

It’s not been sold as “agricultural land”. Agri Price is irrelevant.

Grueller · 14-05-2021 10:35am

2 neighbours here plastered the road with sites. I would love a buffer of good thick briars between me and some of the c***s that live in the houses now. The amount of sh1te and rubbish I pick up from my field behind the sites is phenomenal. For this reason, if you ever see me selling sites you know I am completely financially ruined.

Dinzee Conlee · 14-05-2021 10:46am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Marginal agricultural land is not €12k an acre. More like €3k. This land sounds a lot more marginal than prime.

If the op said rushes, it would suggest more marginal. But briars will only grow in dry enough ground...
From the limited info we have, I wouldn't say its 3k ground

Bass Reeves · 14-05-2021 11:02am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Marginal agricultural land is not €12k an acre. More like €3k. This land sounds a lot more marginal than prime.

You will buy very little marginal land for sub 5k/ acre, Forrestry which admittedly is virtually closed at present puts a 4-5k base on most land.

Anyway agri value is immaterial when valuing small plots

monseiur · 14-05-2021 11:04am

It seems that you don't need the land as such, it's the visual aspect that's bothering you.
As your neighbour seems a reasonable lad why not approach him and offer to clear the adjoining land of all briars etc. drain and re-seed it and repair/replace fences etc. over say a two year period.
Spray briars etc. with Grazon Pro or similar the first year and complete the job the second year, all in your spare time. €2,000.00 should go a long way.

K.G. · 14-05-2021 11:17am

I think you should talk to your neighbour about the fencing situation and see what happens. DO NOT OFFER TO BUY the land at the prices you seemed to be thinking.how much would ask for it if he offered to buy a 1,/3 of an acre of your place.grazon ninety is relatively cheap way out of this

MrMusician18 · 14-05-2021 11:26am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You will buy very little marginal land for sub 5k/ acre, Forrestry which admittedly is virtually closed at present puts a 4-5k base on most land.

Anyway agri value is immaterial when valuing small plots

I got a few small fields of marginal at 3k an acre not that long ago.

Anyway, as the seller here is not selling, for all we know the owner might have a huge attachment to this parcel, may want to keep it as natural habitat, whatever and no price will be high enough.

Cheapest option here would be to tell the farmer you're fixing the boundary and would like to clear back and keep back with his permission, the overgrowth. Really depends on your relationship with the owner, as he might fear an adverse possession case at some point if he lets that.

listermint · 14-05-2021 11:54am

Wouldn't a good strimmer with a teethed head and a nice conversation with the owner not sort all of this out. Maybe clean up every few years or so

14-05-2021 7:04pm

Dunedin wrote: »

That’s €7.5 an acre for ground that’s growing briars and no road frontage. Seems a lot. I’d be thinking €1 or €1.5k Would fees be €2k????

Just had an update today on my own attempted purchase. Solicitors alone, over €2k.

Good loser · 16-05-2021 12:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

Just had an update today on my own attempted purchase. Solicitors alone, over €2k.

Price another solicitor.

16-05-2021 11:07am

Good loser wrote: »

Price another solicitor.

Not my choice unfortunately as the seller want's me to pay their legal costs. My own solicitor is quite reasonable, as he says himself the other solicitors price, considering the small area of land, is "fairly spicy".

Bass Reeves · 16-05-2021 11:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not my choice unfortunately as the seller want's me to pay their legal costs. My own solicitor is quite reasonable, as he says himself the other solicitors price, considering the small area of land, is "fairly spicy".

I had that situation with banks they use there own solicitors and you pay. There solicitors then charge 2-3 k.

About 16 years ago I moving lenders for the farm loan and relaxing equity to pay off a brother who lend me some of the money. The bank agreed that solicitors costs would be 1100 euro. When signing the final documents as it was equity release my own solicitors said that the banks solicitors had send his bill 1100+ sundries+ vat. I explained that the agreement was 1100 euro. My own solicitor asked explained that the vat and sundries were outside norm costs.

I explained to him that if I asked plumber to.price the plumbing of a house he could not come back and add vat to the bill or sundries for accountant fees.

I said the banks solicitor could take the 1100 euro or he could bill the bank and I argue my case with the bank. He took the 1100 euro.

Solicitors are the biggest shower of vultures out there. Now the size of a transfer is immaterial if it's all one transaction on one folio. It immaterial whether it a piece of ground costing 10 million or 1k the paper work is the same except you need to make sure that all the T and I are dotted and crossed . In the 10 million one you expect the solicitor to double check everything and mane pay a bit of a premium. However most transaction should cost no more than 1k+ vat

16-05-2021 12:06pm

This piece of land isn't something I will walk away from or foul up over a grand or two tbh. If it were just any parcel of land, then I'd certainly argue the case. Over the long term, as this is a strategic move, the increase in price will be slight.

JeffKenna · 16-05-2021 12:25pm

I'd say you're looking at €20k to get the ball rolling. Not sure why people are even quoting the price of agricultural land here, you want land to add onto your house. That's adding onto a site so it'd be the price of a site I'd be quoting.

bogman_bass · 16-05-2021 7:54pm

To put it in context I had a similar situation with a neighbour and charged him 6k for about a 1/3 acre and he fenced it.
I was of the opinion (and still am) that I was doing him a massive favour at that price.

Bass Reeves · 16-05-2021 10:06pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

To put it in context I had a similar situation with a neighbour and charged him 6k for about a 1/3 acre and he fenced it.
I was of the opinion (and still am) that I was doing him a massive favour at that price.

You were more than fair with him

Good loser · 18-05-2021 12:11am

JeffKenna wrote: »

I'd say you're looking at €20k to get the ball rolling. Not sure why people are even quoting the price of agricultural land here, you want land to add onto your house. That's adding onto a site so it'd be the price of a site I'd be quoting.

The thing is the 'site potential' has already been realised in the initial purchase i.e. the premium over agrl value has already being paid.
An add-on to that site, especially if it goes around all three sides ( and neglected, presumably low value land) should be priced at agrl prices. Say plus a premium for small areas involved. Fair would be agrl value plus 50% plus all expenses incl vendors CGT.

Extending a site, to solve a problem.

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