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How do surnames work?

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    #2
    Racarbry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭Racarbry


    It's some time now since I ( surname Lenagh ) decided to take time off from the puzzle, but Leynagh was simply the Anglicised version of Luineach for ease of use in English documents and correspondence. I have a transcript of a not particularly large English document from the time where all three variants were used, Toirdelbach luineach Oneil, Turlough Lenagh and Sir Terence Leynagh. The pronunciation of Lenagh in Armagh today is " layna " so Leynagh. They had enough problems without them having to get their tongues around Toirdelbach luineach so Turlough Lenagh and while they were unwilling to give him the title of Oneil he claimed and was recognised as by his clansmen his title at the English court was Sir Terence Leynagh.


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    #3
    naledge
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭naledge


    Racarbry wrote: »
    It's some time now since I ( surname Lenagh ) decided to take time off from the puzzle, but Leynagh was simply the Anglicised version of Luineach for ease of use in English documents and correspondence. I have a transcript of a not particularly large English document from the time where all three variants were used, Toirdelbach luineach Oneil, Turlough Lenagh and Sir Terence Leynagh. The pronunciation of Lenagh in Armagh today is " layna " so Leynagh. They had enough problems without them having to get their tongues around Toirdelbach luineach so Turlough Lenagh and while they were unwilling to give him the title of Oneil he claimed and was recognised as by his clansmen his title at the English court was Sir Terence Leynagh.

    Thanks for all the information. How do you pronounce your surname?

    So was Turlough a Leynagh? Because to me it looks like he was born an O'Neill and Leynagh was a given name.


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    #4
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    We're talking about a long time ago and surnames were not the same as they are now. First, you have to understand that surnames developed as "son of" or "grandson of" being Mac or O' respectively. They changed from generation to generation: eg, Murtha, Mac Eoghan (his father) O'Brien, (grandson of Brian). Over time, someone might come to promince in the family and people began to trace their descent from that man: eg: Brian Boru had no surname but his grandchildren began calling themselves O'Brien to link themselves to him.

    The term clan is often used erroneously in Ireland - we were not that formalised, unlike Scotland. Edward MacLysaght, who was a leading genealogist and Irish family historian, preferred the term "sept". So these septs did usually trace their descent from a common ancestor like Brian Boru but over time different branches within the sept would adopt a particular surname for their own family group.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #5
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Surnames are confusing because when you look at the surnamedb.com etc it tells you were you are from but you probably aren't. Surnames are just names that people picked up to describe their family i.e smith is somebody who has a link to blacksmiths etc etc. I'm not really sure if its the same in irish families but i'm pretty sure there will be a naming pattern similar to that if not the same. However, its interesting when you come to the genealogy section because you can get matches with people from different surnames. For example you surname may be smith, and you did the dna test and got a match with williams, that would mean that they have the same ydna as you. The reason for this is, is that some people have the same y-dna but a different surname because one part of the clan adopted a different surname than the other because of a different occupation. This means that those name meanings are only a partial clue to your genetic origins and it is entirely possible that you have the dna from a different surname. Surnames also change over the years due to a number of causes my own has been changed about 5 bloody times, they can change due to family rows or anything really. So when you look at your ancestry don't be looking for your surname and grinding people with a different varient off because your surname is almost guaranteed to change. My dad was doing this and never got anywhere. He was convinced the surname never changed and he didn't find anyone. So you must make sure to do that.


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    #6
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Spelling did not ‘settle down’ until the late 1800’s. My surname has been spelled with twelve variations, sometimes with two variants in the same family. It is said that Shakespeare's name appears with 20-odd variations. Whoever wrote the name in the parish register was not always highly literate, often writing the name phonetically.

    True surnames, in today’s sense of a hereditary family name, date in England from about the year 1000. Largely they were introduced as a result of the Norman Conquest although there are records of Saxon surnames prior to this period. The Domesday book of 1085-1086 contains some combinations of Saxon forenames with Norman family names, which would suggest that use of surnames had made still more progress.

    By the end of the twelfth century hereditary names had become common in England. But even as late as 1465 they were not universal. During the (brief) reign of Edward V a law was passed to compel, among others, ‘certain Irish’ to adopt surnames as a method to track and control them more easily: “They shall take unto them a Surname, either of some Town, or some Colour, as Black or Brown, or some Art or Science, as Smyth or Carpenter, or some Office, as Cooke or Butler.” This further complicates Irish ancestry, as several people took the English form of the surname – e.g. McGabhann took Smith, and later reverted to its Irish form as Magowan, McGowan. Added to this can be an infusion of English Planters of the same name, so the ability to trace family lines is less than clear. The Fox family is anotherexample – some are Gaelic ‘Sionnach’ others are English settlers.

    Rs
    P.


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    #7
    Farcheal
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    naledge wrote: »
    So was Turlough a Leynagh? Because to me it looks like he was born an O'Neill and Leynagh was a given name.

    As stated before each family will belong to different septs. You ancestor was part of the O'Neill sept. As previously stated, there will be different names added to descendants of the original family as time goes on. For instance the name Leynagh was added to his family, but he was still recognised as an O'Neill.

    You have to understand, in that society things were much more related to these Clans and Septs in working out who was in Power etc. You ancestor Turlough would simply have added the O'Neill back on when he became the O'Neill Mór.

    On a side note I will give you an example that is actually closely related to your story. Turlough's predecessor in power was Shane O'Neill. After Shane was murdered his Sons took on the Name (Anglicised) MacShane or McShane. They were still O'Neill's but became from then on known as the McShane O'Neill's. Which now is just my families' McShane.

    You did well you to get that far back, there isn't a lot of information on the individual O'Neill's after the flight of the earls and such. You and I may be related!


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    #8
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    naledge wrote: »
    I'm starting to get bloody confused. First of all, I tracked back my family tree six generations, the surname changed from Lynagh to Lynot to Lynott and back to Lynagh, which just makes it that much more difficult.

    But my real question is about feudal times in Ireland.

    There was a man named Turlough Lynagh (Terrance Leynagh, Turlough Luineach, Toirdelbach Luineach, Sir Terence Leynagh.

    He was the tanist for the O'Neill family, later becoming the leader. At which point his name is Turlough Luineach O'Neill.

    So what I'm trying to work out, is where did he get the 'Lynagh' from? Was he born an O'Neill or a Lynagh? Did he have connections to the Lynagh family?

    Can anyone help explain this too me, it's very confusing.

    Here's a few links that could help:

    http://mlloyd.org/gen/macomb/text/kennedy/roygen3.htm



    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZABSepHO1FMC&pg=PA509&lpg=PA509&dq=%22TERENCE+LEYNAGH%22&source=bl&ots=Gix1eUgpU7&sig=uO_8EgqxPc3W6HWlK82iFqcBkPs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PQT-Tt7UG8qTiQeT1sntCg&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=terence&f=false



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Neill_dynasty#O.27Neills_of_Tyrone



    http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/british_monarchs.htm



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_Luineach_O'Neill

    The Luineach refers to the fact that as par Irish custom he was fostered out to a family. In his case to the Ó Luinigh ("Descendants of Luineach")
    Ó LUINIGH—I—O Lonney, O Loney, O Loony, Luny, Lunny, Lunney, Lonney, Loney, Loony, Looney; 'descendant of Luineach'; the name of a family of Cinel Moen in Ulster. They were seated orginally in the barony of Raphoe, but were afterwards driven across the Foyle by the O'Donnells, when they settled in Co. Tyrone, in a district to which they gave the name of Muinter Loony. The name is now very common in Co. Fermanagh.

    I should add that one of his relatives was Turlough Brassilagh o'Neill -- in case because he was fostered by "Clann Bhreasail". Basically it's a nickname, sort of like how Caesar was a nickname that marked a branch of the Julia (Julii) family.


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