Was Eamon De Valera really all that great

Riddle101 wrote: »

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But at least Collins knew what needed to be done. He knew how to get things done and was insistant on doing it. De Valera for all the things he said contradicts himself by saying he's fighting for the people. He did nothing in the pace talks, he just sat back a listened to whatever Collins and Griffith were saying to Loyd George hiding behind his desk.

He knew a bloody civil war would be necessary to enforce the British treaty , the carve up of the national territory and the British oath of allegiance so he requested and got artillery , machine guns , armoured cars and rifles from the British to shoot down his own people , intern them by the tens of thousands and drag them from their prison cells to execute them .And the Bishops blessing too . Mr Craig requested and got the same thing for the same purpose , to maintain Britains vision of Irelands future . Partiton is rock solid today , British interests in Ireland well looked after . He sure got the job done alright . He did the dirty job Britian was unable to do .

As for Collins and the Bishops, i doubt it makes a difference who's side the chuch was on. The church would still play a huge role in politics and if i'm not mistaken the church they did have huge influence over De Valera's so called government as it would if Collins lived

for a very brief period the Irish people were actively empowered politically , radicalised politically - ignoring the church . Excommunications of republicans and pulpit denunciations during the War for Independence was simply shrugged off when only a few years before it would have had Irish people hiding and quaking under the bed afraid to face theuir neighbours . As Mr Cosgrave pointed out in the 1920s the national revolution had gone too far , and the natural order of things was largely restored . We could have had a very different future had that social and political trend continued , one where Bishops were kept firmly out of politics . Post civil war , and indeed prior to it ,the catholic church was needed and incorporated by the neo colonial state as an agent of social control . De Valera was just incorporated by the state too and made an arrangement with that agent of social control .
since then our political culture has just thrown up successive waves of weak minded morons who encourage low expectations nationally . Resulting in a moronic national political culture of low expectations , only a few steps removed from barbarism . Culturally politically and intellectually devoid of dignity and national interest . Thats what Mr Collins and Mr DeValera managed to acheive between them .

Riddle101 wrote: »

Are you saying that Collins wanted a Civil War then?

he was quite enthusiastic about starting one

He may have started the Civil War but i don't think he believed it was necessary.

so he just started one for the crack ?

The Anti Treaty side provoked him by occupying the Four Courts,

The British army was occupying 6 counties of Ulster and a number of southern ports , demanding an oath of allegiance to their king and for the Irish people to pay Britian a fortune in war reparations for their attacks against the British army . British forces were actively enegaged in atrocities against large sections of the Irish citizenry north of Britians line of partition .That doesnt seem to have provoked him but it provoked many Irishmen and women to oppose it . That opposition was Michael Collins reason for gunning them down and interning them by the thousands with weapons supplied by the enemy and on the orders of the enemy .

France pointedly executed and jailed members of the Vichy governemnt 2 decades later for the exact same type of despicable treason Collins committed . He betrayed his country . He was a traitor , only unlike the Vichy regime his regime won their conflict . Our society and attitudes today are a direct result of our countrys Vichy type betrayal by Collins and others. Being victorious thanks to enemy assistance doesnt make you any less a traitor to your nation .

but it wasn't until Chuchill told him to take care of them that he actually shelled Dublin.

If hed been any good hed have told churchill to feck off . Churchill wouldnt have given him machine guns and artillery unless Mr Churchill knew exactly who hed use them on well beforehand

He was pressured into doing so and by shelling it he caused it to happen. As for borrowing Artillery, Machine Guns and armoured vehicles, well i can't see the problem there, he was just getting some fire power on his side, who wouldn't want that if your in a war.

He wasnt in a war when he got them . He and the people who gave them to him obviously expected one . A war to be prosecuted against the anticipated large body of the Irish people who tried to defend their nations sovereignty , who refused to swear allegaince to the king of england or to see their country carved up by bloody interfering foreigners in the most undignified fashion

As for executing people, well unfortunately retalitation was done with or without Collin's consent so i don't think we can blame Collins fully for his role in the executions.

You seem to be suggesting policymakers arent responsible for policy .

But back to the topic. I can't justify Collins for his action but all he was trying to do was free his people,

by shelling executing and interning them and handing one part of them over to the British ??

it's just a shame he died so fast that we have no idea what would have happened if Collin's has lived.

Most likely hed have continued to intern and execute his own people every time churchill snapped his fingers .

The last year of his life will forever be a shadow on his legacy but that dose not mean would should tarnish him any further. I know De Valera has done some good as well but De Valera i feel was rather devious and cunning and i do not trust the man. I feel he has done things that have arguably alted the future of Ireland and for that i don't think he was really all that great

apart from his longevity he was as big a swine as Collins . I see no evidence at all to suggest collins would have been any different

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

He didn't just start a Civil War.. the minute that the Anti-treaty Sinn Feiner's decided to walk out of the Dáil in objection to the supposed treaty is when it started.

no , that was a political disagreement . Civil war began when people started shooting each other . Or more precisely it began when a group of Irishmen armed by Britian and on the instructions of the British cabinet began shelling Irishmen who wouldnt accept the terms of a British treaty which made Irish national sovereignty non existant . Quite shameful terms in fact .

Fighting was between members of the IRB (who were either pro-treaty or anti-treaty).

The vast majority of IRA men who joined post 1916 were never IRB members
The IRB had been subsumed into the IRA years earlier and had ceased to function as an organisation . In order to subvert democracy within the Dail the IRA and sinn fein itself Michael Collins attempted to belatedly resurrect its structures , with himself at the top naturally , prior to a dail vote in order to subvert that vote . A vote the IRA never mind sinn fein should never have allowed take place anyway , that is the most important point . His instructions ,set in a secret militarist context of obeying IRB orders or else on what way former IRB members were to vote were essentially threats . Threats made in private and against which republicans subjected to them believed they had no recourse . This method was wholly undemocratic , fascism and an act of treason against the Irish nation by subverting its democractic structures with behind the scenes unnacountable militarism . Subversion and treason against the Irish nation in order to disestablish its national sovereignty and subvert its national governemnt as well as the democratic structures and processes within that governemnt . He was fully opposed by the vast majority of the IRA rank and file and its executive and could not get the majority required within sinn fein . So he resorted to unnacountable militarism in order to subvert democracy .

The pro-treaty Sinn Feiners (becoming Cummann na Gaedhael) assumed control with no opposition in parliament due to Dev and his followers refusal to accept the oath as part of the treaty.

they also refused to accept the crime of the partition of the nation and southern Ireland having to pay massive financial reparations to england for all the hurt that had been caused to England . Not to mention accepting Engalnds right to force all of the above on Ireland in the first place , which was contrary to everything theyd joined the republican movement for and every right theyd fought for as a nation . If they wanted to swear oaths to foreign monarchs theyd have been better off staying at westminster rather than talking about stuff like sovereignty for Ireland , having a right to nationhood , inalienable and indefeasible and all that .

But if truth be told, it was Dev's fault that the whole treaty came back from England in the manner it did. He wouldn't go over to England and negotiate himself because he knew that it was destined for failure.

he may well have knew but thats just a guess . Its much better to deal in actual facts though rather than attempted mind reading through the mists of time . The facts are at hand from Treaty signatory Robert Barton who pointed out exactly where disaster befell Ireland . The negotiating team agreed to enter negotiations when they arrived in Downing street on the basis they were not representing a sovereign government . That meant before theyd even begun negotiations the issue had already been pre determined through their own stupidity and Michael Collins haste to get himself into the history books . They couldnt even argue as a sovereign governemnt . They could not address the issue of national sovereignty . They were in other words catastrophically stupid, from the very outset and wholly compromised themselves and with that the entire negotiations and their nation . They made the most simple of schoolboy errors and behaved like inexperienced half wits , predetermining their fate from the very outset .

England had Ireland between a rock and a hard place.

please please please...if that had been the case England would most definitely not have been negotiating with anyone . It would have been very happily mopping up and looking forward to the hard place to give an example to the rest of the empire .
The actual historical record proves the precise opposite was the case . The head of the British army in Ireland had sent his governemnt a very stark assessment . British morale in Ireland was broken . He made it quite clear to his governemnt , and Ill quote him , " it would most definitely not be safe to ask the troops to remain in Ireland another winter" . This is also borne out by numerous IRA intelligence reports of that time ( all of which were written down in detail) as well as the historical accounts of a number of figures engaged in insurgency . Very often the British were simply confining themselves to heavily fortified bases and dreaded going out , mostly only to resupply them . It was immediately after this military assessment the British began talking about truce talks , notably at the beginning of summer and before the winter guerilla conditions warned of by their top general came back again .
Britian was between a rock and hard place , their troops morale was gone , IRA morale was sky high . The British dreaded the onset of winter whilst the IRA actively looked forward to it . Thats the basis on which Britain sought negotiations . If they had thought for one minute the IRA was vulnerable theyd have gone for the jugular

So he sent Collins, Griffith and the others as plenopotentiaries (had the power to accept the treaty).

they were sent as plenipotentaries of an Irish republic , they came back with partition , a British oath of allegiance to the crown and demands for massive financial reparations to Britian of all people . They had no authority to accept any of this on behalf of the Irish nation .

When it came down to it, after long negotiations and they had made decent progress,

as ive pointed out , one of their number Robert Barton pointed out they fluffed it catastrophically and amateurishly from the very beginning of negotiations , predeterming their outcome upon entry through a fundamental error .

they were told that 'war immediate and terrible' would come if they didn't accept the terms and they weren't allowed to confer with Dev.

they should then have left and come home . What in the name of god were they over there for , if they accept Britin had the right to tell them even who they could talk to ?

The reality is , using logic over mythical narrative , once theyd compromised themselves from the outset Britain knew the Irish negotiatiors were up the creek . All it took was some cheap theatrics to deliver the coup de grace . In effect they were only giving the Irish side a figleaf to hide the schoolboy mess theyd made of the negotiations behind . Doing them a favour in other words . Had they not done that theyd have been laughed out fo the dail and decent set of negotiators sent over the next time .

He wasn't a traitor.

then Marshall petain should have the grandest boulevard in Paris named after him

He along with O'Higgins and Cosgrave had to stabilise the country.. if they didn't there would be chaos and the English would most likely step in again.

yeah , right . England occupied Ireland to prevent chaos now .

At the very same time Field marshall wilson was orchestrating the most ferocious chaos amongst the civilian population of Irelands north east

Yeah he shelled his own countrymen, but he had little other option.

how about disobeying the orders of his countrys enemy , the British cabinet , and not shelling them ? not really that hard to do

Dev was lucky. When he did come to power, Cummann na Gaedhael had all the work done for him, the country was settled.

Well if you shell , machine gun , intern , execute and exile enough people sooner or later you can probably cow them . These turncoats certainly succeeded in doing what Britian instructed them to do .

counties antrim , Down , Armagh , Derry , Tyrone and Fermanagh were pretty much settled too .

There was a police force in place and whilst he had to replace a lot of these with his loyal followers, the foundations of the state were already laid.

There two police forces in place in Ireland . Britian conceived both states state and forced them upon the Irish people . As usual using Irishmen with British guns to do their dirty work for them either side fio the border . That collins was successful in this does not make him any more an Irish patriot than Sir James craig .

Would Dev have handed power over like CnaG did when they had to?

thats an entirely seperate issue from betraying your country

So Dev, brilliant eh? :rolleyes: Collins did what had to be done. He took the steps towards a republic. We'd probably still be fighting the British if Dev had his way.

if the British werent in Ireland nobody would be fighting them . Again you seem to have missed some pretty major points in the logic of rebelling against the British presence in the first place . And Britains still here despite the rubbish about stepping stones . So Irishmen and women will probably still be fighting them well into the future . Thats inevitable when conflicts havent been resolved . But i suppose Britian can always count on an Irish leader in the state it created to do the necessary .

Red Hand wrote: »

You know, I think Ireland got a tiny slice of aid from the Americans when they implemented the Marshall Plan in Europe...and where did we stick this money?

In DRAINAGE.