Switzerland vs Ireland [Match Thread]

siblers · 16-10-2019 1:15pm

Dots1982 wrote: »

Making huge judgments with apparent absolute certainty on the basis of the result of one game is a favored past time of many Irish fans.

Coleman has been poor this campaign, been poor for Everton. Doherty wass one of the most impressive full backs last season in the Premier League and looks to be getting back to his best this season . He is one of our most talented players who has been restricted to playing out of position.

I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to be happy to potentially to see him in his preferred position/side ahead of an out of form Coleman

Dots1982 · 16-10-2019 1:22pm

siblers wrote: »

Coleman has been poor this campaign, been poor for Everton. Doherty wass one of the most impressive full backs last season in the Premier League and looks to be getting back to his best this season . He is one of our most talented players who has been restricted to playing out of position.

I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to be happy to potentially to see him in his preferred position/side ahead of an out of form Coleman

Was more a general comment on the fickle reactionary nature of our support than any commentary on Doherty or Coleman

16-10-2019 2:10pm

Where are Arter, Doherty, Long, even James McCarthy?

Mick sticking with the players from the first few games and couldn't be bothered / unwilling to bring in players into the squad.

if players like Hendrick are playing rubbish should be looking at other options.

Zico ! · 16-10-2019 3:11pm

I think whelan was the best of our midfielders and played well but if anyone thinks he was better than Randolph or Duffy they would be pulling the p1ss

Ferris_Bueller · 16-10-2019 3:28pm

elefant wrote: »

Mick McCarthy is out of his depth at this level in 2019. That's my main take away from that game last night. And whatever about people saying 'you can't turn straw into gold', the ineptitude when it comes to team selection is seriously compounding our lack of quality.

The Irish national football team is not a meritocracy under Mick, and the explanations he gives for his frankly bizarre team selections are completely illogical.

- Selecting Hogan is inexplicable. Parrott doesn't get selected in the squad because he can't get a game ahead of Kane and Son, but Hogan gets a game against Switzerland despite not getting selected ahead of Tyrese Campbell and Lee Gregory? Add Long's omission from the squad to this loopy mental gymnastics.
- Not making a third substitute when our entire team are out on their feet, a carded central midfielder is playing right back and Matt Doherty is on the bench is inexplicable.
- Not sending more men forward for a last corner when a 1-0 loss is absolutely no use to us is inexplicable.
- Leaving McClean on for a full game (a terrible left back for the worst team in the championship), while Callum Robinson (an attacker in a mid table premier league side) sits on the bench is almost inexplicable.
- Playing Hourihane left back in a friendly instead of calling up an actual left back who might be an option for us in future fixtures (while our starting left back is actually suspended for the next competitive fixture!) is inexplicable.

Sure, we've scored 6 goals in 7 games (including 2 games against Gibraltar) and that's nothing short of embarrassing performance-wise as it is, but that our team selections appear to be based on some warped logic combining extreme conservatism and blind loyalty is just inept. I can't think of any other reason for it. Being a nice guy and bluffing through press conferences with jokes shouldn't give a pass on it.

I feel like this could have been written about any of our last three managers at any point over the last 10 years. Is it just easy to blame the manager for everything? I do think towards the end of MONs era it was warranted, but McCarthy has been in the job for 8 games and he is getting slated.

It's going to be the same people calling for Kennys head as soon as he has a hiccup like a 0-0 draw away to Georgia.

16-10-2019 3:35pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

It's going to be the same people calling for Kennys head as soon as he has a hiccup like a 0-0 draw away to Georgia.

if someone picks the best players (of the limited selection) instead of just sticking with the same ones, brings in new ones and tries to play some football I think that he'd be given the leeway of a campaign that we won't qualify for.

Ferris_Bueller · 16-10-2019 3:39pm

What is our best team right now? Nobody knows. I think him consisting with McClean is a mistake, and leaving Long out of the squad when McGoldrick was out altogether is another mistake. But after that what players is he leaving out?

16-10-2019 3:47pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

What is our best team right now? Nobody knows. I think him consisting with McClean is a mistake, and leaving Long out of the squad when McGoldrick was out altogether is another mistake. But after that what players is he leaving out?

Arter. James McCarthy even. Put Doherty in midfield?

Ferris_Bueller · 16-10-2019 3:52pm

glasso wrote: »

Arter. James McCarthy even. Put Doherty in midfield?

McCarthy and Arter suffered the exact same criticisms under O'Neill as Hourihane/Hendrick/Browne are now. McCarthy has played 90 minutes once in the last 3 years. Not saying they don't belong in the squad, but it is hardly a shock that they haven't been. If Arter and McCarthy started last night and the same thing happened lads would be roaring their heads off today saying "it's a disgrace he is picking these over in form Premier League players like Hendrick and Hourihane".

16-10-2019 3:57pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

McCarthy and Arter suffered the exact same criticisms under O'Neill as Hourihane/Hendrick/Browne are now. McCarthy has played 90 minutes once in the last 3 years. Not saying they don't belong in the squad, but it is hardly a shock that they haven't been. If Arter and McCarthy started last night and the same thing happened lads would be roaring their heads off today saying "it's a disgrace he is picking these over in form Premier League players like Hendrick and Hourihane".

of course.

but that's the way it goes.

somebody asked the question.

don't know how Hendrick is playing for Burnley but doesn't seem too bothered with Ireland at the moment.

elefant · 16-10-2019 4:05pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I feel like this could have been written about any of our last three managers at any point over the last 10 years. Is it just easy to blame the manager for everything? I do think towards the end of MONs era it was warranted, but McCarthy has been in the job for 8 games and he is getting slated.

It's going to be the same people calling for Kennys head as soon as he has a hiccup like a 0-0 draw away to Georgia.

I'm not blaming the manager for everything.

I'm blaming him for these absurd decisions he consistently makes. I'm blaming him for saying he'd be happy with a point against Switzerland beforehand.

These are indefensible, and the only conclusion I can reach us that Mick is not fit for purpose as a national team manager in 2019. Just because the previous lads were ****e doesn't mean Mick isn't too.

Ferris_Bueller · 16-10-2019 4:11pm

I don't think there have been many absurd decisions under Mick. Persisting with McClean probably his worst offence, and the general set up against Georgia on Saturday was a big mistake (one which could end up defining the McCarthy era), but even if we did win that game we would still be in a position where we have to beat the Danes in Dublin next month.

elefant · 16-10-2019 4:19pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I don't think there have been many absurd decisions under Mick. Persisting with McClean probably his worst offence, and the general set up against Georgia on Saturday was a big mistake (one which could end up defining the McCarthy era), but even if we did win that game we would still be in a position where we have to beat the Danes in Dublin next month.

Ok, here's 3 again:

Explain Hogan in that squad?

Explain using 2 substitutes?

Explain not bothering to play a left back against Bulgaria?

Mokuba · 16-10-2019 4:50pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I don't think there have been many absurd decisions under Mick. Persisting with McClean probably his worst offence, and the general set up against Georgia on Saturday was a big mistake (one which could end up defining the McCarthy era), but even if we did win that game we would still be in a position where we have to beat the Danes in Dublin next month.

Wrong.

If we beat Georgia we would have qualified with 2 draws from the games against Switzerland and Denmark.

Ideal scenario for us, the draw experts wouldn't you think.

Nah, Mick fancied his chances of a win against the top two seeds.

Masterstroke by Mick.

noodler · 16-10-2019 5:14pm

Mokuba wrote: »

Wrong.

If we beat Georgia we would have qualified with 2 draws from the games against Switzerland and Denmark.

Ideal scenario for us, the draw experts wouldn't you think.

Nah, Mick fancied his chances of a win against the top two seeds.

Masterstroke by Mick.

But Switzerland hammered us?

Not winning in Georgia didn't matter in the end.

Mokuba · 16-10-2019 5:19pm

noodler wrote: »

But Switzerland hammered us?

The Georgia result didn't matter in the end.

Do you think the game would have gone identically if we only needed a draw from it? You think it would have panned out exactly the same when our need of a result was different? Well you probably would. But most people would probably be able to see that it would have been a different game, different mentality.

The Georgia result mattered because it forced us into a position where we had to beat Switzerland and if not, had to beat Denmark.

The mental gymnastics involved in your continued defense of this regime must be tiring. Unsurprising because, like Mick, you didn't even know of the permutations that would qualify us from the group.

noodler · 16-10-2019 5:24pm

Mokuba wrote: »

Do you think the game would have gone identically if we only needed a draw from it? You think it would have panned out exactly the same when our need of a result was different? Well you probably would. But most people would probably be able to see that it would have been a different game, different mentality.

The Georgia result mattered because it forced us into a position where we had to beat Switzerland and if not, had to beat Denmark.

The mental gymnastics involved in your continued defense of this regime must be tiring.

You think the result would have been different if we only needed a draw?

But actually, a draw would have been hugely beneficial last night because it would have meant playing Denmark when they have nothing to play for? Yet we still never looked like getting it.

So how do you square that circle?

Really, it's a massive exaggeration to attribute the result last night to that.

Idbatterim · 16-10-2019 5:26pm

a hammering? we played bloody appalling, were a player down and two nil is all the managed. Hammered in terms of play yes, by score no. Youd swear they put 4-5 past us!

osarusan · 16-10-2019 5:33pm

Mokuba wrote: »

Do you think the game would have gone identically if we only needed a draw from it? You think it would have panned out exactly the same when our need of a result was different? Well you probably would. But most people would probably be able to see that it would have been a different game, different mentality.

The Georgia result mattered because it forced us into a position where we had to beat Switzerland and if not, had to beat Denmark.

The mental gymnastics involved in your continued defense of this regime must be tiring. Unsurprising because, like Mick, you didn't even know of the permutations that would qualify us from the group.

I know where you are going with your argument, but TBH, we looked like a team playing for a draw anyway. We even looked like it after we were 1-0 down, apart from a brief spell early in the second half.

And the worst thing is that against Denmark, in a game we must win, we're going to look like a team playing for a draw for the first 75 minutes of the game.

We'll only start to look like we want to score when there are either 15 minutes to go, or because we're already a goal down.

Mokuba · 16-10-2019 5:35pm

noodler wrote: »

You think the result would have been different if we only needed a draw?

But actually, a draw would have been hugely beneficial last night because it would have meant playing Denmark when they have nothing to play for? Yet we still never looked like getting it.

So how do you square that circle?

Really, it's a massive exaggeration to attribute the result last night to that.

I think the game would have panned out far differently if we had beaten Georgia. Momentum still on our side. No negativity. Mick could set up for the draw if he wanted like MON did away v Denmark in 17. Or not, but Swiss under massive pressure and us on a high.

Draw being hugely beneficial last night in current circumstances is a massive stretch. Denmark on an off day could potentially beat us, they are fairly outspoken about how little regard they have for us.

But a draw is a far easier result than a win. And had we beaten Georgia and drawn with Swiss, Denmark would have qualified with a draw v us aswell! They would have even qualified with a loss to us! Your point is hilariously bad because we would have just needed to draw the game in my scenario, rather than win as in your scenario, against a team that had already qualified.

I don't even know what your argument is. Baffling stuff.

Mokuba · 16-10-2019 5:39pm

osarusan wrote: »

I know where you are going with your argument, but TBH, we looked like a team playing for a draw anyway. We even looked like it after we were 1-0 down, apart from a brief spell early in the second half.

And the worst thing is that against Denmark, in a game we must win, we're going to look like a team playing for a draw for the first 75 minutes of the game.

We'll only start to look like we want to score when there are either 15 minutes to go, or because we're already a goal down.

If we beat Georgia and drew with Switzerland, Denmark would have qualified there and then.

What Mick threw away was needing a draw against a team that had already qualified. Because he was too scared to try to beat Georgia.

osarusan · 16-10-2019 5:43pm

Mokuba wrote: »

If we beat Georgia and drew with Switzerland, Denmark would have qualified there and then.

What Mick threw away was needing a draw against a team that had already qualified. Because he was too scared to try to beat Georgia.

I agree with you. My main criticism of pretty much every Irish manager since and including Charlton is that we are too negative against teams that we shouldn't be afraid of, which results in us dropping points we shouldn't be dropping. And the result of this is that we end up not being able to play for a draw against the teams that it make sense to play for a draw against.

The point of my earlier post was that although the draw against Georgia made a win against either the Swiss or the Danes essential, you wouldn't have known that by the way we played last night. We were still as defensive as ever, so I don't think the Georgia result actually affected our setup that much anyway.

Mokuba · 16-10-2019 5:45pm

I think it would have gone differently. I can't prove that, but I find it unlikely that it would have gone the same way.

We coughed up a monumental opportunity by not going for it against Georgia. It was disgraceful management.

Idbatterim · 16-10-2019 5:49pm

randolph didnt have to make one save v georgia! Two extra points would be a lot easier to get off georgia than bloody swiss or danes. You have to take risks or calculated risks in football. The georgia farce by the players, but by mccarthy too tactically was pure IDIOCY!

16-10-2019 5:49pm

Mokuba wrote: »

If we beat Georgia and drew with Switzerland, Denmark would have qualified there and then.

What Mick threw away was needing a draw against a team that had already qualified. Because he was too scared to try to beat Georgia.

Switzerland would have beaten that Ireland team, whatever the circumstances (e.g. even if had beaten Georgia)

So the same position regardless.

I see that Ireland are over 3 to 1 to win in November.

Cork Boy 53 · 16-10-2019 6:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

a hammering? we played bloody appalling, were a player down and two nil is all the managed. Hammered in terms of play yes, by score no. Youd swear they put 4-5 past us!

If Randolph hadn`t played a stormer last night they would have done.

pgj2015 · 16-10-2019 6:14pm

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

If Randolph hadn`t played a stormer last night they would have done.

I think I saw the Swiss keeper going off for a hotdog during the match, he took a chance that he wouldnt be needed.

Ferris_Bueller · 16-10-2019 6:14pm

elefant wrote: »

Ok, here's 3 again:

Explain Hogan in that squad?

Explain using 2 substitutes?

Explain not bothering to play a left back against Bulgaria?

They are hardly absurd decisions, or else your definition of it and mine are completely different. The third point was in a friendly where we won 3-1 FFS.

I'll admit the first two points are things that I think Mick has got wrong, but they are minor enough things IMO. It's not like he is picking Scott Hogan over Harry Kane.

Not going for the win against Georgia was embarrassing really but we are not the first team to go out there and slip up, just ask the Danes. The manner of the performance was probably worse than the result in my book. But even if we did get the win, as the Danes won later that day it always meant we were going to have to beat Denmark. Expecting a result away to the top seeds in a group is generally unrealistic, last nights result or performance was no surprise.

Switzerland vs Ireland [Match Thread]

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